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Old 13th July 2014, 04:58 PM   #321
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
blah blah
You are just repeating yourself mostly and as usual mincing your words. But I'll deal with them one last time. If you don't like the answers, fine. But repeating the questions repeatedly over and over repeatedly again and again like they were never answered is getting as ridiculous as me repeating over and over repeatedly again and again repeatedly over and over that you are doing it.

1) The trademark is a non issue on this forum. Drop it. This has nothing to do with the efficacy of good land management practices versus poor land management practices, HM, MIRG, cover crops used as forage, rest rotation etc... As far as I know it only pertains to certification of instructors, prevention of scam artists co-opting the name like they did in medicine, and similar things like that. If you wish to bring it up in a legal forum go for it. I won't be answering there either though as I am neither a legal expert, nor interested in learning, nor interested in saying something incorrect by accident, since I am not knowledgeable in matters of business law in general nor trademarks in particular.

2) I already explained why I stated the method was already popular down under and why you seem to not quite get it. Because instead of trademarked names, common farmers use common names. It was in the published study I linked to you.
Quote:
A system of flexible, high-intensity, short period grazing followed by a long period of rest (HI-SG) was first put forward by Savory in 1978 (Savory and Parsons, 1980) and was later introduced to Australia in 1989 by Stan Parsons as “Cell Grazing” (McCosker 2000). The terms of “The Savory Grazing System”, “Short Duration Grazing” and more specifically in this paper “Time-controlled Grazing” are the common names of the new grazing system. Time-controlled grazing (TC grazing) has been increasingly popular amongst graziers in Australia and the rest of the world over the past two decades.
I have seen it elsewhere too. But that's why I said what I said. Also I find is extremely strange you would admit that, "Integration that is decades old here in NZ." and at the same time question your own statement's validity by requiring evidence. Savory developed the original idea (based on Voisin's science). It took off and became a standard practise, modified for each farmers circumstances by each farmer, yet somehow you don't believe it is popular down under because Savory doesn't try to tell a farmer he must use a trademark or that he must stay "pure" to only "Savory's" improvements over time??? It seems to be your issue is that Savory isn't using "holistic" as a scam like they do in medicine, yet you insist it must be due to your associated connotative equivocation of the term. The whole point of it is to adapt to the complexity of each farm which is different soil, climate, terrain, species, available technology, family, social and cultural context, finances etc... You are obviously having cognitive dissonance or some other cognitive issue that I can't address. (alternately you are simply trolling by knowingly asking questions that have no acceptable answer according to your fallacious definitions) So stop repeating yourself. Pointless. You'll not get a better answer from me.

3) Gabe Brown is a HM practitioner. He is a member of the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. The Burleigh County Soil Conservation District employs certified HM educators. That's why Burleigh County Soil Conservation District uses the trademark. link All the case studies from there are from farmers using HM. However, for the presentation I linked to you, Gabe doesn't have to actually teach the full trademarked HM to teach the specific topics presented in the USDA educational presentation. It wouldn't apply anyway. Part of HM is the holistic context that is different for each and every person on the planet. He can teach a PART of the system though. In this case his experience with forage based grazing multi-species covers integrated with no till crop production. Oh and PS I never said Gabe had published results in a scientific paper. In fact I specifically said it wasn't. His results are published and available from the USDA and the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District, and other associated educational programs funded by the USDA like NCAT-ATTRA, but not in a scientific study published in a science journal. I linked a webinar put forth by the USDA with those results, but you refused to even accept the data because you didn't like the format in which it was presented. Oh well. That's your problem, not mine. But for anyone else who doesn't mind that the USDA used a video format:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


ETA PS Yes all the people participating in those Burleigh County Soil Conservation District case studies have superior results and that is why the push to educate more farmers.
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Old 13th July 2014, 08:01 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...usual insults and wall of text snipped....
1) The trademark is a issue on this forum. We are discussing Savoy's Holistic Management(TM) not whatever bits of good land management he has borrowed.

2) You did not give any evidence that HM(TM) is very popular and widely used in Australia and NZ. Popular means that majority (or at least a large percentage) of farmers know about and use it, not the there are random references to it on Australia and NZ web sites. You stull have given no such evidence:
Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
3) Gabe Brown is a HM practitioner.
...snipped yet another wall of text!...
Red Baron Farms. please do not assume that I am so ignorant that I do not know that HM practitioners exist !
I know that Gabe Brown is a HM(TM) practitioner. That does not mean that he talked about HM(TM) at a conference:
* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?

The ignorance of citing of YT videos as if they are scientific evidence continues, Red Baron Farms !

Actual answers to these questions are still outstanding, Red Baron Farms:
* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?

* Red Baron Farms (1 July 2014): Where in Comparing the effects of continuous and time-controlled grazing systems on soil characteristics in Southeast Queensland is Savoy's trademarked HM cited as used on the property in question?

I will remind you again: If a case study does not refer to Savoy's HM (trademarked or not!) then it is not a case study of Savoy's HM !

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Old 13th July 2014, 08:49 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
1) The trademark is a issue on this forum. We are discussing Savoy's Holistic Management(TM) not whatever bits of good land management he has borrowed.
You mean borrowed from him. And no. The trademark is not an issue at all. Absolutely irrelevant. I can see you love it as a red herring that allows you to equivocate whenever you wish. But it has no meaning to this thread. Zip Zero Nada.
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Old 13th July 2014, 09:03 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
You mean borrowed from him.
A new unsupported assertion, Red Baron Farms !
Red Baron Farms : Please list all of the concepts in HM(TM) and show that none of then existed before Savoy.

As far as I can see:
* Rotation grazing existed before Savoy.
* No till existed before Savoy.
* The concept of using cover crops as feed was before Savoy.
* The only innovation that I can see is the addition of intensive grazing (some would call that over-grazing ).
But since HM(TM) is such a big dark secret, it is hard to see what was borrowed and what is new !
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Old 13th July 2014, 09:12 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
A new unsupported assertion, Red Baron Farms !
You are so slow and your memory so bad you forgot the quote just minutes earlier?
Quote:
A system of flexible, high-intensity, short period grazing followed by a long period of rest (HI-SG) was first put forward by Savory in 1978 (Savory and Parsons, 1980) and was later introduced to Australia in 1989 by Stan Parsons as “Cell Grazing” (McCosker 2000). The terms of “The Savory Grazing System”, “Short Duration Grazing” and more specifically in this paper “Time-controlled Grazing” are the common names of the new grazing system. Time-controlled grazing (TC grazing) has been increasingly popular amongst graziers in Australia and the rest of the world over the past two decades.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
some would call that over-grazing
True. And what? People that haven't got the slightest idea of what causes overgrazing call it overgrazing, and you somehow think that is significant?

PS There is no secret. It is free to anyone willing to learn. I have stated this multiple times, so no excuses from you. It is a secret to you but only due to your willful ignorance. You refuse to learn, then call it a big secret. Self fulfilling prophesy.
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Old 13th July 2014, 09:41 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
..snipped insults...
So now you think that there were no systems of land management before 1978, Red Baron Farms !
You asserted that "You mean borrowed from him", i.e. everything in Savoy's HM(TM) was borrowed by all other systems (including the ones that existed before 1978). So I asked the sensible question
Red Baron Farms (14 July 2014): Please list all of the concepts in HM(TM) and show that none of them existed before Savoy.

And now you are stating that you do not know the concepts in HM(TM) or where they came from?
That only people who pay Savoy get to know the secrets of HM(TM)?
That your assertion is thus unsupported by any knowledge of the concepts behind HM(TM)?

And yes - having to pay for it makes it a secret since it is only shared by a select few.
You have only a vague, broad idea of what HM(TM) is.
I have only have only a vague, broad idea of what HM(TM) is.
Everyone who has not paid has only a vague, broad idea of what HM(TM) is.

P.S. You should also read the smillies: This means sarcasm and this means joking or humor .

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Old 13th July 2014, 09:49 PM   #327
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Red Baron Farms: An example of Savoy borrowing an existing concept from an HM(TM) practitioner called Gabe Brown (you may know of him )
Quote:
Improving soil health is a priority and no-till farming has been practiced since 1993.
No-till farming
Quote:
The idea of modern no-till started in the 1940s with Edward Faulkner, author of Plowman's Folly,[2] but it wasn't until the development of several chemicals after WWII that various researchers and farmers started to try out the idea. The first adopters of no-till include Klingman (North Carolina), Edward Faulkner, L.A. Porter (New Zealand), Harry and Lawrence Young (Herndon, Kentucky), the Instituto de Pesquisas Agropecuarias Meridional (1971 in Brazil) with Herbert Bartz.[3]
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Old 13th July 2014, 10:10 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
So now you think that there were no systems of land management before 1978, Red Baron Farms !
You asserted that "You mean borrowed from him", i.e. everything in Savoy's HM(TM) was borrowed by all other systems (including the ones that existed before 1978). So I asked the sensible question
Red Baron Farms (14 July 2014): Please list all of the concepts in HM(TM) and show that none of them existed before Savoy.

And now you are stating that you do not know the concepts in HM(TM) or where they came from?
That only people who pay Savoy get to know the secrets of HM(TM)?
That your assertion is thus unsupported by any knowledge of the concepts behind HM(TM)?

And yes - having to pay for it makes it a secret since it is only shared by a select few.
You have only a vague, broad idea of what HM(TM) is.
I have only have only a vague, broad idea of what HM(TM) is.
Everyone who has not paid has only a vague, broad idea of what HM(TM) is.

P.S. You should also read the smillies: This means sarcasm and this means joking or humor .
No. I understand what HM is. I actually asked for and received the training guides. FOR FREE. Told you time and time again. FOR FREE. HMI is a non profit organization set up for educating people about HM. Yes if you WANT you may take a course with a teacher for a fee. But it is not REQUIRED. All of the materials required to understand HM are FREE. Assuming you have the willingness and ability to actually educate yourself. Which obviously you don't. I do, and did. There is no big secret. It is incredibly easy once you train yourself to think in a holistic context.
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Old 14th July 2014, 06:44 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Red Baron Farms: An example of Savoy borrowing an existing concept from an HM(TM) practitioner called Gabe Brown (you may know of him )


No-till farming
The first part of holistic management is to identify all the tools available to you to reach your goals both long term and short term. All the science, technology, traditional knowledge and other sources of knowledge etc... Why is it such a surprise to you that Gabe would develop his forage based multi species cover cropping system integrated with no till crop production? The principles of soil health are the same. It's one of the first things that will happen once you understand holistic management and holistic planned grazing. In fact I was astonished to find that completely independent of Gabe, several of the things I had worked out for integrating it with vegetable production, Gabe had worked out too for his garden. He doesn't commercially sell vegetables, but after we talked several times, he might just start. The profit per acre of vegetables is far greater than the profit of his cash crops, (mostly corn) We of course also exchanged nuances we had learned to mutually help each other. Once again your flaw is in fallaciously trying to define HM as a single one size fits all system as opposed to an adaptive system that works for anyone consistently. The species, climate, goals of the farmer, finances etc.. may change, but the principles of soil health, biodiversity and biomimicry don't.
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Old 14th July 2014, 01:46 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I understand what HM is..
Then answering:
Red Baron Farms (14 July 2014): Please list all of the concepts in HM(TM) and show that none of them existed before Savoy.
should be very easy for you, Red Baron Farms.

Or not , since you have not been able to provide (even with "I do not have evidence or was wrong") actual answers to questions for several weeks now.
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Old 14th July 2014, 01:50 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...snipped irrelevant wall of text....
Nothing in that screed addresses the point in my post, Red Baron Farms.
The question was: Red Baron Farms (14 July 2014): Please list all of the concepts in HM(TM) and show that none of them existed before Savoy.
A partial answer is that Savoy borrowed at least one concept that has been around since the 1940s and practiced before 1978:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Red Baron Farms: An example of Savoy borrowing an existing concept from an HM(TM) practitioner called Gabe Brown (you may know of him )

No-till farming (proposed in the 1940s, practiced by 1971 which is before 1978)
(clarification in bold)
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Old 14th July 2014, 02:49 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Bad premise. Savory's breakthrough wasn't in the concept, but rather the application of such for consistent positive results.

Or to say it a different way. Reductionist science is very good at breaking things down to it parts to understand them better, whereas Savory shows the manager how to use holism to take those understandings of science and build them into new whole systems with both predictable and emergent properties not seen in the individual parts. Then how to adapt to the negative emergent properties in such a way as to obtain consistently positive results.

You presume that Savory must have needed to reinvent the wheel to invent a new car. He didn't. That does not mean that the car isn't a new design though.

Now Savory did come up with sdhd grazing. He also came up with the brittleness factor. With those two new concepts, he got spectacular results, but the occasional set back. It wasn't consistent enough in dealing with nature's complexity. So he added a management tool for dealing with obtaining goals under complex constantly fluctuating conditions. (he borrowed from military planners) That helped, but still wasn't 100% consistent. So he added the holistic context to it and that gave him 100% consistent results. Not one of his projects has even temporarily failed since, even through droughts, social unrest, economic turmoil etc.... But what's really cool is that same holistic context that was originally intended to help preemptively mitigate negative results also automatically incorporates new knowledge and technology as it becomes available. It grows in a positive way as these things are developed by others. So the manager could simply keep things going consistently positive by sticking with what he knows, but he also can learn to do even better. That happens on a case by case basis and will be different for everyone because everyone's holistic context is different. ie they have different goals, different finances, different knowledge base, different learning curves, different creativity levels, different land in different climates that are constantly changing in different ways, different wants, needs, and desires for their different size families, different political beliefs etc... etc.... etc....
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Old 14th July 2014, 04:58 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Bad premise....snipped irrelevant wall of text....
Bad reading comprehension, Red Baron Farms: You stated that Savoy's concepts were borrowed from him, implying that Savoy did not borrow anything that existed before !
And thus my question:
Red Baron Farms (14 July 2014): Please list all of the concepts in HM(TM) and show that none of them existed before Savoy.

The fact is that Savoy borrowed at least one concept - no till dates from the 1940s!

If you want to move the goalposts back to Savoy used existing, working concepts and added some personal twists (e.g. "intensive, short-term" to rotational grazing) then I will accept that is what he did. This is what I have accepted that he did for some time now.

P.S. Rotational grazing in the US began to be taken seriously in 1950:
Origin, Persistence, and Resolution of the Rotational Grazing Debate: Integrating Human Dimensions Into Rangeland Research (PDF)
60 Years Later: A Symposium On Rotation Grazing (2010)
Quote:
For perspective, this article was written in 1950 and includes references to trials as far back as 1913 in many different countries.
Basic "rotational grazing" has been around for centuries, e.g. the rotation of sheep between different meadows in the UK.

ETA:
You do not have to emphasize Savoy's incompetence by mentioning his subjective and so useless brittleness factor. If you want to emphasize his competence then cite the use of his brittleness factor in the scientific literature.
"spectacular success" is basically a lie. If HM was a spectacular success then there would be no doubts that it works. But holistic management
Quote:
One limitation of any land management system is that economically and politically powerful users can easily quantify and argue their needs. It is harder to define the economic value of ecosystem services and, therefore, the ecosystems and people most dependent on them for their subsistence become voiceless and often neglected users. In theory Holistic Management framework addresses this issue, but it is not always seen in the field.[29] Another common criticism of holistic planned grazing is that while farmers and ranchers around the world believe that it works for them and they have even received awards,[2][41][42][43][44] the majority of range scientists have not been able to experimentally confirm that intensive grazing systems similar to those at the center of holistic management show a benefit, and claim that managers' reports of success are anecdotal.[45][46]
(my emphasis added)

Advertising and selling HM(TM) has been a success - look at your almost blind belief in it regardless of the mixed experimental verification .

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Old 14th July 2014, 05:15 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Basic "rotational grazing" has been around for centuries, e.g. the rotation of sheep between different meadows in the UK.
Of course it has. And holistic management differs from all the rotational grazing methods in that it explicitly recognizes and provides a framework for adapting the four basic ecosystem processes (the water cycle, the nutrient and mineral cycle including the carbon cycle, energy flow, and community dynamics) with livestock production and social welfare.
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Old 14th July 2014, 05:18 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Of course it has. ...
Once again you miss the point, Red Baron Farms, and repeat the obvious.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
If you want to move the goalposts back to Savoy used existing, working concepts and added some personal twists (e.g. "intensive, short-term" to rotational grazing) then I will accept that is what he did. This is what I have accepted that he did for some time now.

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Old 14th July 2014, 05:31 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Once again you miss the point, Red Baron Farms, and repeat the obvious.
If it is obvious then why is it so difficult for you to deal with the difference between HDSD grazing and HPG (both developed by Savory)? And if you think that difference is obvious, why even ask the question to begin with?
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Old 14th July 2014, 05:41 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
And if you think that difference is obvious, why even ask the question to begin with?
The obvious is that holistic management exists !
The obvious is that holistic management is not other land management practices - it is holistic management !

I asked the question in response to your assertion about HM, Red Baron Farms:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You stated that Savoy's concepts were borrowed from him, implying that Savoy did not borrow anything that existed before !
And thus my question:
Red Baron Farms (14 July 2014): Please list all of the concepts in HM(TM) and show that none of them existed before Savoy.
If you make an assertion then it is up to you to provide evidence to support it.
Or not, since you have not been able to provide (even with "I do not have evidence or was wrong") actual answers to questions for several weeks now.

If you make an assertion then you cannot demand that I do the research to support your assertion!

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Old 14th July 2014, 06:04 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The obvious is that holistic management exists !
The obvious is that holistic management is not other land management practices - it is holistic management !

I asked the question in response to your assertion about HM, Red Baron Farms:


If you make an assertion then it is up to you to provide evidence to support it.
Or not, since you have not been able to provide (even with "I do not have evidence or was wrong") actual answers to questions for several weeks now.

If you make an assertion then you cannot demand that I do the research to support your assertion!
No need. When I said borrowed from Savory, I meant borrowed from HPSD. Many modern rotational grazing systems borrowed from HPSD. MIRG, Cell grazing in permaculture, mob grazing, etc.... They all use the short duration high impact and long rest concepts first proposed by Savory in 1978. They all do a pretty good job too, depending on the circumstances. But they all have circumstances in which they fail as well. HPG on the other hand has so far never failed, it is consistent and repeatable. It is as big an improvement over HDSD as HDSD was over traditional rotational grazing.
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Old 14th July 2014, 09:13 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
When I said borrowed from Savory, I meant borrowed from HPSD.
But you wrote borrowed from him, i.e. Savoy. It is that assertion you had to either give evidence for or retract. So you have retracted it and replaced it with another unsupported (but reasonable) assertion !

Savoy seems to be the first person to think of high density, short duration (HDSD) grazing (or at least the first to publish about it). This happened in 1978 so it is not surprising that it pops up in other management practices.

I assume that you have seen Short-Duration Grazing: The Facts in 1999 which does start with Savoy's 1978 paper. It is a review of 13 studies in the US and includes looking at 2 reviews of over 50 experiments in Africa. Not good for that SD part of HDSD - marginal benefits at best. The conclusion has a nice historical perspective in how intensive grazing became accepted without scientific evidence.
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Old 14th July 2014, 09:26 PM   #340
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Red Baron Farms:
You keep on going an about the USDA educating people about Savoy's HM because they have a few web pages mentioning him.
But it is as valid to say that the USDA educates people about the deficits in Savoy's HM because there is at least one web page criticizing it, e.g.
Conservation Benefits of Rangeland Practices: Assessment, Recommendations, and Knowledge Gaps (2011)
Quote:
These results refute prior claims that animal trampling associated with high stocking rates or grazing pressures in rotational grazing systems enhance soil properties and promote hydrological function (Savory and Parsons 1980; Savory 1988).
(in Chapter 2. Assessment of Prescribed Fire as a Conservation Practice (PDF; 2.5 MB)
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Old 15th July 2014, 05:49 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Red Baron Farms:
You keep on going an about the USDA educating people about Savoy's HM because they have a few web pages mentioning him.
But it is as valid to say that the USDA educates people about the deficits in Savoy's HM because there is at least one web page criticizing it, e.g.
Conservation Benefits of Rangeland Practices: Assessment, Recommendations, and Knowledge Gaps (2011)

(in Chapter 2. Assessment of Prescribed Fire as a Conservation Practice (PDF; 2.5 MB)
I am aware of Briske and Holechek and the controversy between the prescribed fire advocates and the HDSD advocates, yes. It is an ongoing heated debate and controversy.
The need to use prescribed fire as a range management tool is very destructive long term. Running the vegetation through a herbivore instead has many benefits to the carbon and nutrient cycles, particularly benefitting the soil biology. But yes. If you can't manage to get the vegetation run through an animal and decaying biologically, you have to burn it instead. Because just leaving it standing will kill the grass, the range vegetation will begin to change to woody growth and it will begin to desertify in seasonal rainfall low humidity areas. Not all fire is bad. Certainly it can occasionally be used whenever grazing was inadequate to get the job done. Savory does use fire too, but at dramatically lower frequency. But prescribed fire on a regular basis because there are not enough animals on the land to eat the vegetation or trample it to the ground for a protective mulch and biological decay is part of the problem. I'll also point out that while in the past there was great difficulty in scientifically confirming the grazing benefits to the land, Teague has managed to confirm it scientifically. It's a tricky thing though. Because over grazing is also destructive to the land. Even more than prescribed fire. So just increasing the stocking rate as an alternative to prescribed fire can and often does make it even worse. Maintaining that ecological balance is the key that Savory has been working on all these years. How to consistently maintain the benefits to the land from grazing, without overgrazing as the yearly rainfall changes, is what the controversy centers around. Understanding that overgrazing is a function of time as opposed to stocking rate is probably the biggest change in the paradigm needed to be understood in maintaining that balance. HM is the breakthrough that allows a manager to use HDSD grazing instead of prescribed fire consistently.
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Old 23rd July 2014, 11:11 AM   #342
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Here is a good vid on some of the development the Aussies are doing in regenerative agriculture.
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Quote:
The recommended solutions are often more fertiliser, herbicide and insecticide. Which is basically the moron principle. If a certain amount of fertiliser won't fix it, put more on. That's what we get advised to do, and it hasn't worked. -Colin Seis
and another source of what Colin Seis and others are developing that I have posted before.
Why Pasture Cropping Is Such A Big Deal
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Old 23rd July 2014, 02:32 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I am aware of Briske and Holechek and ...prescribed fire advocates derail snipped...
Wrong chapter, Red Baron Farms:
Conservation Benefits of Rangeland Practices: Assessment, Recommendations, and Knowledge Gaps

Chapter 1. An Evidence-Based Assessment of Prescribed Grazing Practices (PDF; 5.7 MB)

And you missed a point: Claiming that USDA is educating people about how HM works because of a web page supporting HM (and a couple of conferences) is wrong when there is another USDA web page debunking HM!

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Old 23rd July 2014, 02:37 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
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Why Pasture Cropping Is Such A Big Deal
Nice but irrelevant video and link that are not about scientific evidence for HM, Red Baron Farms!

P.S. Actual answers to these questions are still outstanding, Red Baron Farms:
* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?

* Red Baron Farms (1 July 2014): Where in Comparing the effects of continuous and time-controlled grazing systems on soil characteristics in Southeast Queensland is Savoy's trademarked HM cited as used on the property in question?

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Old 23rd July 2014, 02:45 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Nice but irrelevant video and link that are not about HM, Red Baron Farms!
First of all, This thread is about land management practises, not just HM only. Second of all, HM and the earlier form developed by Savory, commonly called Time Controlled Grazing, are part of pasture cropping and both are mentioned in the sources I posted. You are the one fixated on the trademarked HM only. Not me. I told you that you needed to drop that irrelevant fixation with the trademark already several times.

PS Prescribed grazing is not part of the system Savory developed. That is adaptive, not prescribed. The Teague paper explains it. Already addressed. Secondly, you continue to miss the brittleness factor as a useful tool in describing how land will react to the removal of the herbivore herds. Not all land reacts the same. But in highly brittle areas, it will kill the grass because it interrupts the cycle of biological decay (which the herbivores are an important part). All that has been explained to you before with sourced examples and even pictures!

ETA As far as Australia goes, there is this:
Early Australians to Blame for Mass Extinctions, Study Finds

Quote:
In a commentary accompanying the report in Science, Christopher Johnson, a biologist at James Cook University in Australia, raises the possibility that over-hunting by humans may have caused the extinction of the large browsers, triggering a shift in the landscape from abundant grasses to desert scrub.
But followed by this which is the key to understanding what likely happened:
Quote:
But the authors maintain that neither over-hunting nor human-introduced diseases could have caused such dramatic changes at the base of the food chain.
That's the key link Savory figured out. Remove the herbivores with over hunting, and you won't necessarily cause their extinction. But you can reduce populations enough to cause a trophic cascade that goes all the way down to the base of the food chain. ("triggering a shift in the landscape from abundant grasses to desert scrub.") Once the Base of the food chain is affected by desertification, the remnant herds then are susceptible to complete extinction due to habitat loss.
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Old 6th August 2014, 08:43 AM   #346
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nice bit of science journalism on Savory's ideas http://www.theguardian.com/environme...arming-miracle
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Old 6th August 2014, 11:56 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by bobwtfomg View Post
nice bit of science journalism on Savory's ideas http://www.theguardian.com/environme...arming-miracle
Aside from the science, which is a great summation of all the work and non-work each side has (guess which has which), the interview he has with him is hilarious.
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Old 7th August 2014, 06:45 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Aside from the science, which is a great summation of all the work and non-work each side has (guess which has which), the interview he has with him is hilarious.
There is only one published peer reviewed scientific study that either side has on land managed using HM and it is in favor of HM.
Quote:
Success was due to managing grazing adaptively for desired results. [1]

There are absolutely zero published studies on land managed by HM that show it doesn't work. None. If you know of any that I am unaware of, by all means post it. I'll be happy to read.

Now Briske has done extensive criticism of Savory in an attempt to discredit him. Mostly by digging up piles and piles of old studies that have nothing to do with HMPG. Briske himself admits:
Quote:
The scientific evidence refuting the ecological benefits of rotational grazing is robust, but also narrowly focused, because it derives from experiments that intentionally excluded these human variables.[2]
So you see? Management is about human decision making processes and plans, and the second you remove that variable, of course HM fails. Every intensive management systems fails under conditions like that. Because you are purposely removing the management. How can you intensively manage anything at all, if you remove the manager, his monitoring, and his decisionmaking capabilities to adapt to constantly changing environmental conditions?

That so called science writer's attempt at humor? Just making himself out to be an ass IMHO. Especially his criticisms of Chris Gill who manages the Circle Ranch and has done a fantastic job of habitat restoration for wildlife. [3]
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Old 7th August 2014, 11:18 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
There is only one published peer reviewed scientific study that either side has on land managed using HM and it is in favor of HM.
But golly, I thought you weren't discussing just HM. Maybe you need to drop the irrelevant fixation with the trademark?
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Old 7th August 2014, 12:19 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
But golly, I thought you weren't discussing just HM. Maybe you need to drop the irrelevant fixation with the trademark?
I am not fixated on it. That was simply the topic of the silly so called "science writer".

Here is another that certainly has read Savory's work, and André Voisin before him and is quite influenced by their work, but actually doesn't use HM exactly.

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Although I have talked to Joel, and he claims he is adding more and more from the "holistic management guys" all the time, as he improves and grows his operation. Last I heard he was up to and additional ~1,000 acres of leased land from his original 100 acres of pasture, and is experimenting with both permaculture techniques and Holistic management techniques on a lot of the land he manages. They are all very very closely related as they pull from the same biophysical models found in natural ecosystems.

And another guy I have talked to using and teaching a very similar concept is Dan Undersander, Research Forage Agronomist, University of Wisconsin. I point blank asked him specifically about the resemblance to HM. He claims also that much of what he teaches came from Savory's publications (and he recommends Savory's work for further reading), but not precisely HM per se.
Grassland Birds: Fostering Habitat using Rotational Grazing

And here is one I found a few weeks back that purely by accident stumbled onto certain of the concepts purely 100% by accident. He ran a failing commercial confined Dairy, one of the top producers in the state. But Dairy farming is tough and he was near bankruptcy in spite of being a top producer. Then one day his cows broke out of their barn, and everything changed. He actually took a completely different approach unrelated at all to anything anyone else was doing. Completely novel, developed himself without any input of information from Savory or Voisin at all. But anyone who knows and understands the biophysical principles of HMPG can easily spot why it worked so well for him.
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Old 7th August 2014, 02:03 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by bobwtfomg View Post
nice bit of science journalism on Savory's ideas http://www.theguardian.com/environme...arming-miracle
The money quote:

Holistic management does not permit replication. Because of this fact we can only validate the ‘science’ used and monitor or document ‘results achieved’. Note: This point is critical to understanding the great difficulty reductionist scientists are experiencing trying to comprehend holistic planned grazing – because no two plans are ever the same even on the same property two years running, planned grazing cannot be replicated which reductionist scientists do to try to understand the ‘science.’

Red flags:

"science" in quotes

Reductionist scientists
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Old 7th August 2014, 02:52 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...Secondly, you continue to miss the brittleness factor
No, Red Baron Farms: I am charitably ignoring Savory's subjective, untested and so scientifically useless brittleness factor.
If you want o embarrass Savory then keep on bringing up his brittleness factor


Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...
ETA As far as Australia goes, there is this:
Early Australians to Blame for Mass Extinctions, Study Finds
And "What is clear is that the fires changed the landscape from a mosaic of forests and grasses to the fire-adapted shrubs and spinifix (a grass) found today" has to do with my question how, B]Red Baron Farms[/b]?
(the commentary on the paper is a speculation that the authors do not think is correct).

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?

* Red Baron Farms (1 July 2014): Where in Comparing the effects of continuous and time-controlled grazing systems on soil characteristics in Southeast Queensland is Savoy's trademarked HM cited as used on the property in question?
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Old 7th August 2014, 03:06 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
There is only one published peer reviewed scientific study that either side has on land managed using HM and it is in favor of HM.
That is:
Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie
which is a bad result for HM - extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Even normal claims need good evidence. One paper is not good evidence. One paper in over 40 years of HM is evidence that people are ignoring HM.

ETA: According to Alan Savory this "reductionist" paper cannot support HM because no scientific analysis on replication can support HM !
..., Holistic management does not permit replication (PDF)

There are many published studies on land managed by parts of HM that show those parts have minimal benefits or do not work.

In 2011 Briske et al did extensive criticism of Savory based on the existing science then:
Origin, Persistence, and Resolution of the Rotational Grazing Debate: Integrating Human Dimensions Into Rangeland Research (PDF)
which in turn has been criticized!

The latest from Briske et al is is the 2014 Commentary: A critical assessment of the policy endorsement for holistic management
Quote:
...The vast majority of experimental evidence does not support claims of enhanced ecological benefits in IRG compared to other grazing strategies, including the capacity to increase storage of soil organic carbon.

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Old 7th August 2014, 03:32 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Especially his criticisms of Chris Gill who manages the Circle Ranch ...
Who cares about what ranch this Chris Gill manages, Red Baron Farms .
That is nothing to do with the criticisms of Chris Gill.
Eat more meat and save the world: the latest implausible farming miracle
Quote:
Unfortunately Savory gives no reference for this assessment. In the academic literature, I’ve been unable to find a paper on the subject by anyone called Gill. Elsewhere, all I have been able to locate is a three-page magazine article by Gill, reproduced on Savory’s websites. It contains no references, no data and no links to any experimental or empirical research. If this is “the only independent assessment of all available critics and their citations” that Savory will accept as valid, I think it might tell you something about the substance of his claims.
These are facts:
  • Savory gives no reference for this assessment
  • The author cannot find any paper on the subject by anyone called Gill
  • The author did find a three-page magazine article by Gill.
  • That article was reproduced on Savory’s websites
  • That article contains no references, no data and no links to any experimental or empirical research
That anyone would think that a magazine article supports their claims reflects badly on the claims.
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Old 7th August 2014, 03:53 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
The money quote:

Holistic management does not permit replication. Because of this fact we can only validate the ‘science’ used and monitor or document ‘results achieved’. Note: This point is critical to understanding the great difficulty reductionist scientists are experiencing trying to comprehend holistic planned grazing – because no two plans are ever the same even on the same property two years running, planned grazing cannot be replicated which reductionist scientists do to try to understand the ‘science.’

Red flags:

"science" in quotes

Reductionist scientists
Agreed that is awkward. Ironically Briske says the same thing, only in a much better more precise way. That's where I do give Briske credit. At least he understands the limitations of the bulk of the scientific studies currently published on the issue and is able to describe those limitations without resorting to broad generalist terminology like Holistic or Reductionist. (I already quoted part of it but for better context here it is somewhat expanded.) I find it quite amusing when people who have no clue what they are talking about try and use Briske's studies to attack Savory's ideas about a holistic context being needed, when Briske himself has stated essentially the same thing.

Quote:
...we contend that they can be reconciled by evaluation within the context of complex adaptive systems in which human variables such as goal setting, experiential knowledge, and decision making are given equal importance to biophysical variables. The scientific evidence refuting the ecological benefits of rotational grazing is robust, but also narrowly focused, because it derives from experiments that intentionally excluded these human variables.
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Old 7th August 2014, 04:46 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...when Briske himself has stated essentially the same thing.
That is not "essentially the same thing", Red Baron Farms - that is a statement that the "scientific evidence refuting the ecological benefits of rotational grazing is robust" but that studies including the effects of human variables are lacking. If these studies existed then they would be included in the analysis. It is a statement about the scope of available studies.

What Savory is saying is that HM can never be replicated because each trial is unique. This is analogous to the homeopathy claim that because every treatment is customized for an individual, no clinical trials on homeopathy can be done.
Savory is just wrong. You can compare cases using HM against cases not using HM and it does not matter that each HM case is differently implemented.
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Old 7th August 2014, 05:46 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You can compare cases using HM against cases not using HM and it does not matter that each HM case is differently implemented.
I agree you can. In fact it has and I posted that Teague study multiple times. But like Briske states himself, it just hasn't been done yet. (And back then it hadn't been done.... the Teague study wasn't published yet.)

Keep in Mind Teague was a part of Briske's team. They both knew full well the limitations of the studies, and that is a motivator to do a study that includes "human variables such as goal setting, experiential knowledge, and decision making" because in the "context of complex adaptive systems" it is important and without that "holistic" context, the "robust" science is meaningless. So rather than make ridiculous claims that HMPG doesn't work, he actually did a comparative study on land managed using HMPG and what was the result? Success. Measurable improvement over the two other main management systems used in the USA (and also an improvement over rested land with no grazing at all) specifically in soil health including carbon sequestration. (and BTW also in profits for the ranchers)
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Old 7th August 2014, 06:18 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
IBut like Briske states himself, it just hasn't been done yet....
Again - what Briske states himself is that studies including human variables have not been done. That does not support Savory's ignorance about how science works and that no studies on HM are possible.
Briske states himself: The scientific evidence refuting the ecological benefits of rotational grazing is robust, ...
The addition of "holistic" does not mean anything about the scientific evidence refuting the ecological benefits of rotational grazing being robust. That evidence remains robust even if they painted the tractors red or the rancher thought good thoughts !

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Old 7th August 2014, 06:24 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Again - what Briske states himself is that studies including human variables have not been done. That does not support Savory's ignorance about how science works and that those studies could be done.
Your mistake is taking Savory's statements out of context. They are both discussing the same thing. I agree Briske says it much better, and have already acknowledged Savory's unfortunate wording. What more do you want? Blood? Or do you actually strive to have a greater understanding of the subject? Because focusing on Savory's bloopers in an off the cuff unprepared phone interview as reported by a quite biased science writer is not in any way more than simply trolling.
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"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
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Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 7th August 2014 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 7th August 2014, 06:41 PM   #360
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Your mistake is taking Savory's statements out of context..
Your mistake is in not reading Savory's rather ignorant statement in its context.
Savory's statement is about the impossibility of ever replicating HM results no mater how many studies are done.

Briske et al (not Briske alone )
Origin, Persistence, and Resolution of the Rotational Grazing Debate: Integrating Human Dimensions Into Rangeland Research
Quote:
These interpretations appear contradictory, but we contend that they
can be reconciled by evaluation within the context of complex adaptive systems in which human variables such as goal setting, experiential knowledge, and decision making are given equal importance to biophysical variables. The scientific evidence refuting the ecological benefits of rotational grazing is robust, but also narrowly focused, because it derives from experiments that intentionally excluded these human variables.
is a statement of the facts: the experiments that refuted rotational grazing did not include human factors.

Briske et al are suggesting that the contradiction between the perception of rotational grazing as successful by managers and the scientific evidence of rotational grazing as a failure is due to human factors.
My example: If managers were educated in the scientific experimental method then they would be more likely to agree with the scientific evidence.

ETA:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
ETA: According to Alan Savory this "reductionist" paper cannot support HM because no scientific analysis on replication can support HM !
..., Holistic management does not permit replication (PDF)
Quote:
Because each and every managed situation involving land (people, land, money) is totally unique, and also unique every year just as one cannot step into the same river twice because it is flowing, Holistic Management does not permit replication. Because of this fact we can only validate the “science” used and monitor or document “results achieved”.
This is just ignorant. Science does like to replicate experiments using the same methods but that is only the verification of the original experiment. The next step is to replicate the experimental results using any and all methods.
For example, look at the cold fusion fiasco: Someone says that fusion can be achieved in conditions X using apparatus Y at room temperature then the first step is to do the same experiment to see if you get the same results. After that you vary the apparatus to make sure that the results are not something to do with the apparatus.

Last edited by Reality Check; 7th August 2014 at 06:50 PM.
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