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Old 28th March 2019, 09:19 AM   #1
therival58
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Lightbulb Does eating fruit and vegetables off season destroy electron balance?

Has anyone read in depth the work of neurosurgeon Jack Kruse? He postulates that since mitochondria break down food through electron chain transport, when you eat a food that is off season, it messes up the balance of electrons in your body, that then mess up your charge to absorb vitamin D from the sun. Hence, leading to disease. Or something along those lines, Kruse cites a lot of scientific jargon, and it's hard to keep up with it all.
https://jackkruse.com/my-top-ten-paleo-fx-moments/

For example:

Quote:
@PHD Thanks for the back handed compliment. I will take it in a good light. I might also point out that you use written words better than those used to speak with. I would think if one had nothing fully positive to say about the speech you would just leave it unsaid. I guess my sensibilities are just quite different than yours. You and Emily Deans think there is no biologic consequence for eating bananas in winter. I know there is and since you too can affect young peoples choices I have a duty to speak up. It is proven that there are no safe starches in winter because of the neural wiring of the brain.
Quote:
Just because you can eat a banana does not mean you ought to eat it. Moreover, many younger Paleo’s are now aware of this distinction I am making in our approaches now. They also can test it for it too with our taking your or her word for it. Just because you both “feel fine” eating the banana, does not mean it’s fine for your telomeres or longevity. Biology has a way of accounting for these errors of reductive thinking and soon you will see this too. Hopefully for your own sake it wont be before something happens to you both. This movement needs its people healthy and not snarky. I did not make the neural pathways. Mother Nature did. I merely shined light on something both of you have never realized.
And

https://forum.jackkruse.com/index.ph...ns.9690/page-2

[quote]
Originally Posted by Mihaly Safran
I have two questions about electrons, sorry if they were earlyer...
1. If the fruits on tropic area are electron-poor by design, than why is avocado so fatty?
2. If we need to collect as many electrons as we can, than is it possible to do a special artifical battery or electron feeder for human with DC current to gain energy? I know it sounds crazy but maybe you have the answer...

Originally Posted by Jack Kruse
1. Avocado's are vestiges. Read the work of renowned ecologists Dan Janzen and Paul Martin. In 1982 they published a provocative paper arguing that many of the fruits and nuts found in Central American forests today evolved to be eaten by animals that have been extinct for thousands of years. There was a recent book written on this paper talking about the unusual evolution of papayas, persimmons, ginkgo biloba, and coffee.

They are foods from a different timescale for life. Since fruits propagate by seeds, their progeny doesn’t grow far from the tree, as the proverb goes; their only chance of spreading their seeds across the land, then, are the animals who eat the fruit, along with its seeds, then “plant” those elsewhere when they poop.

The avocado’s abnormally giant seed presents anything from a severe digestive hazard to a death sentence for contemporary earthly species but, apparently, avocados coevolved with ground sloths and were originally eaten by gomphothere — elephant-like creatures that lived during the Miocene and Pliocene, between 12 million and 1.6 million years ago, who happily reaped the fruit with their hefty trunks, crunched them with their massive teeth, and passed the seeds comfortably through their oversized digestive tract. The Younger Dryas took out these animals about 100,000 years ago. Avocado's are there leftovers.

2. Yes it is possible but we have not developed the how to yet.
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:59 AM   #2
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Yeah that's...not even wrong.

If a food was "electron-poor" then it would, by definition, have a positive electrical charge. No way around that.

Besides, your body doesn't use electrons as electrons. Your "neural wiring" uses postive and negative ions, notably Na+, K+, Ca2+, Mg2+, Cl-, HPO42-, and HCO3-.

This is woo of the highest order.
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:07 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yeah that's...not even wrong.
Yep.
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:11 AM   #4
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Dang. From the thread title, I was expecting an article about why out-of-season tomatoes is how we got Trump.
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:44 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dang. From the thread title, I was expecting an article about why out-of-season tomatoes is how we got Trump.
Thank god, I'm not the only one.
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:47 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dang. From the thread title, I was expecting an article about why out-of-season tomatoes is how we got Trump.


We are only just beginning to understand the ramifications of consuming electron-poor plants, but thanks to the pioneering work of this medical expert, we will soon have all the answers.

Just another example of how we should always listen to experts because they are experts and not worry too much about the methods they use to arrive at their expert opinion.









(This post was sarcastic in case that wasn’t clear)
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:07 AM   #7
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Sounds like Paleo woo and Appeal to Nature fallacies.
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:19 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yeah that's...not even wrong.

If a food was "electron-poor" then it would, by definition, have a positive electrical charge. No way around that.

Besides, your body doesn't use electrons as electrons. Your "neural wiring" uses postive and negative ions, notably Na+, K+, Ca2+, Mg2+, Cl-, HPO42-, and HCO3-.

This is woo of the highest order.
So I was doing some reading on Wikipedia for electron chain transport and it's still difficult for me to process in relation to food.

Quote:
Electron transport chains are used for extracting energy via redox reactions from sunlight in photosynthesis or, such as in the case of the oxidation of sugars, cellular respiration. In eukaryotes, an important electron transport chain is found in the inner mitochondrial membrane where it serves as the site of oxidative phosphorylation through the action of ATP synthase. It is also found in the thylakoid membrane of the chloroplast in photosynthetic eukaryotes.
Quote:
ATP synthase is an enzyme that creates the energy storage molecule adenosine triphosphate (ATP). ATP is the most commonly used "energy currency" of cells for all organisms. It is formed from adenosine diphosphate (ADP) and inorganic phosphate (Pi). ATP synthase is:

Last edited by therival58; 28th March 2019 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:20 AM   #9
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So what about the tropics where fruits and veggies grow all year?

Did he only consider four seasons climates?

If tomato's are out of season in the US does that still make tomatoes from Mexico ( fresh and in season ) poison north of the Rio Bravo?

So much more research required....
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:40 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
So what about the tropics where fruits and veggies grow all year?

Did he only consider four seasons climates?

If tomato's are out of season in the US does that still make tomatoes from Mexico ( fresh and in season ) poison north of the Rio Bravo?

So much more research required....


Yep.

And Northern/Southern Hemispheres... Does he think exporting oranges from California to Australia is supposed to alter atoms within the fruit?
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:44 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Yep.

And Northern/Southern Hemispheres... Does he think exporting oranges from California to Australia is supposed to alter atoms within the fruit?
Unless you turn them over, they'll all be upside down.
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:58 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by therival58 View Post
So I was doing some reading on Wikipedia for electron chain transport and it's still difficult for me to process in relation to food.
It has to do with the actual chemical process of turning food into energy.

It doesn't depend on a supply of food-borne electrons to work.

It doesn't depend on the number of electrons in the food to work.

The only way an electron imbalance would cause an issue is if there were enough free electrons to cause electrocution, but that's going to happen long before anything ever gets near an electron transport chain.

The transport chain happens after the food has been chewed, swallowed, digested in the stomach, passed into the intestines, the nutrients broken down and extracted, passed into the bloodstream, and then gotten into the cell.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:00 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Yep.

And Northern/Southern Hemispheres... Does he think exporting oranges from California to Australia is supposed to alter atoms within the fruit?
The atomic structure is not altered in the fruit, the assertion is that the fruit's election "charge" will alter the 'charge' in the individual's quantum physiology, which throws our systems out of whack. This Hellhound says is nonsense.

Quote:
Since our skin is derived from neuro-ectoderm and we, too, use photosynthesis to make Vitamin D for our protection from poor electron dense foods in summer. Maybe we should re-think our position on Vitamin D?
https://jackkruse.com/the-sunshine-of-your-life/

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Old 28th March 2019, 12:12 PM   #14
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Yeah, this is absolutely nonsense.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:26 PM   #15
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Who'd have thought, another high skill/low knowledge 'expert' doing things outside their field of expertise. I really can't wait until 'surgeon' is just another production line of robots.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:26 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yeah, this is absolutely nonsense.
This is from Askscience on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/..._in_humans_or/

Kruse cites Douglas Wallace a lot for his research on mitochondria, and Wallace seems to be a respected figure in the field. I think Kruse extends Wallace's research to extremes that cannot be supported.

https://cmem.research.chop.edu/index...allace-douglas

Quote:
2) When mitochondria make energy, they shuttle electrons across their membranes. If any of these membranes get loose they attack (in a chemical sense) the nearest electrophilic molecule. In mitochondria this tends to be oxygen. This makes Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS). Too much ROS is dangerous. It can severely damage your mitochondria. (Ever hear that you should be eating anti-oxidants? Its because they are thougt to help reduce the amount ROS).

...

3) Mitochondria are heat producers. We are only kind of joking when we say we burn our food. The chemical process our mitochondria use takes the robust chemical reaction of burning and breaks it into many controlled steps, using the energy that would become heat to generate ATP for us. However mitochondria can be made to work less efficiently. When this happens some of the energy escapes as heat. Our brown adipose tissue (BAT, fat cells) are really good at making heat because their mitochondria are uncoupled more than other mitochondria from different tissue.

Last edited by therival58; 28th March 2019 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:28 PM   #17
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Like the prestige I was a little disappointed to find that it was not about tomatoes, perhaps the question of whether those we eat would have been better thrown.

On the basic question, I would point out (without questioning why anyone would have to) that in large parts of the world, there is a long dark cold season in which no vegetables at all grow. Assuming that "off season" means off the season where you live, since otherwise, of course, all vegetables are in season wherever they mature or they would die, this means that huge numbers of people in the temperate and colder zones should eat no vegetables at all for much of the year.

This would mean that people who eat no vegetables at all for half or more of the year should be healthier than those who do eat imported off-season vegetables. I suspect that such a drastic eventuality would be fairly easy to find in medical or epidemiological literature.

It sure sounds like nonsense to me. In short, I don't think the author of the theory knows his beans.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:38 PM   #18
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Given the discussion of avocados, I think this is more concerning to him than
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Yep.

And Northern/Southern Hemispheres... Does he think exporting oranges from California to Australia is supposed to alter atoms within the fruit?
This? Maybe. Frankly, its rather incoherent.
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
So what about the tropics where fruits and veggies grow all year?

Did he only consider four seasons climates?

If tomato's are out of season in the US does that still make tomatoes from Mexico ( fresh and in season ) poison north of the Rio Bravo?

So much more research required....
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by therival58 View Post
This is from Askscience on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/..._in_humans_or/

Kruse cites Douglas Wallace a lot for his research on mitochondria, and Wallace seems to be a respected figure in the field. I think Kruse extends Wallace's research to extremes that cannot be supported.

https://cmem.research.chop.edu/index...allace-douglas
And none of that has anything to do with the "electron balance" of the food you eat.

This is like saying that because cars run on gas the moon has an engine. That's the level of relation between the two, even assuming the "low electron food" nonsense was in any way accurate.
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:03 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dang. From the thread title, I was expecting an article about why out-of-season tomatoes is how we got Trump.
Yeah, me too. As a consolation, I might just throw some out-of-season tomatoes at Trump. On second thought, maybe not. As satisfying as that would be, it wouldn't be worth the risk of getting arrested.
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by therival58 View Post
Has anyone read in depth the work of neurosurgeon Jack Kruse? He postulates that since mitochondria break down food through electron chain transport, when you eat a food that is off season, it messes up the balance of electrons in your body, that then mess up your charge to absorb vitamin D from the sun. Hence, leading to disease. Or something along those lines, Kruse cites a lot of scientific jargon, and it's hard to keep up with it all.
It is technobabble. It doesn't even make sense to try to pick it apart. Don't try to keep up, because there's nothing to keep up with.

Spend your time with something more useful, like watching paint dry.

Hans
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:11 PM   #22
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Sometimes they have missed a LOT.
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by therival58 View Post
The atomic structure is not altered in the fruit, the assertion is that the fruit's election "charge" will alter the 'charge' in the individual's quantum physiology, which throws our systems out of whack. This Hellhound says is nonsense.
And it is nonsense. Period. Note the use of "quantum". A sure sign of nonsense *)
.

Hans

*) "Quantum" is only nonsense if used out of context. This is a case of out of context use.
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yeah that's...not even wrong.

If a food was "electron-poor" then it would, by definition, have a positive electrical charge. No way around that.

Besides, your body doesn't use electrons as electrons. Your "neural wiring" uses postive and negative ions, notably Na+, K+, Ca2+, Mg2+, Cl-, HPO42-, and HCO3-.

This is woo of the highest order.
The notion that foods can be "electron poor" shows an appalling lack of knowledge of basic science. Electrons are elementary particles, and everything that exists contains an abundance of them. Of course, objects can become temporarily "electron poor" or "electron rich" by acquiring a static electric charge, but such imbalances tend to correct themselves quite quickly -- in spectacular fashion in the case thunderstorms, a bit less spectacularly if you vigorously pet your cat.

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Old 28th March 2019, 01:17 PM   #25
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It's complete bollocks, like everything Kruse spouts to separate gullible idiots from their money.
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The notion that foods can be "electron poor" shows an appalling lack of knowledge of basic science. Electrons are elementary particles, and everything that exists contains an abundance of them. Of course, objects can become temporarily "electron poor" or "electron rich" by acquiring a static electric charge, but such imbalances tend to correct themselves quite quickly -- in spectacular fashion in the case thunderstorms, a bit less spectacularly if you vigorously pet your cat.
Yeah, that was pretty much the point I was making. Electron poor is just so...I don't even know.

It's like seein a logical proof that goes:
If A, then B
If C, then D
A2, therefore Cabbage

There's no link in it that isn't flawed.
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Sounds like Paleo woo and Appeal to Nature fallacies.
The whole "paleo" fad is based on nonsense. First is the assumption that there is one "paleo" diet. Pre-agricultural humans ate whatever was most available in their local environment. That might be meat, fish, or any of a wide variety of edible plants. Second, is the assumption that they ate mostly meat. Most anthropological studies of hunter-gatherers have found that they at a lot more plant matter than animal, but there are exceptions. Native Americans in the Coumbia River basin ate lots of salmon, because that was far and away the most abundant food resource in the area.
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:33 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yeah, that was pretty much the point I was making. Electron poor is just so...I don't even know.

It's like seein a logical proof that goes:
If A, then B
If C, then D
A2, therefore Cabbage

There's no link in it that isn't flawed.
Somewhere in the quoted text in one of thrrival58's posts was something like, "If avocados are electron poor, why are they so fatty?". Where do you even begin to answer a question like that? Well, it is correct that avocados are fatty, but what relation that is supposed to have with their alleged electron poverty, I can't begin to work out.

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Old 28th March 2019, 01:38 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by therival58 View Post
Has anyone read in depth the work of neurosurgeon Jack Kruse?
Not me but when you linked this example:
Quote:
The avocado’s abnormally giant seed presents anything from a severe digestive hazard to a death sentence for contemporary earthly species but, apparently, avocados coevolved with ground sloths and were originally eaten by gomphothere — elephant-like creatures that lived during the Miocene and Pliocene, between 12 million and 1.6 million years ago, who happily reaped the fruit with their hefty trunks, crunched them with their massive teeth, and passed the seeds comfortably through their oversized digestive tract. The Younger Dryas took out these animals about 100,000 years ago. Avocado's are there leftovers.
I realized it was bunk. A just so story. Just look at the silly inaccuracies regarding the gomphothere.
Yes it is a thing. A side branch of the elephants. But look at those silly dates. It supposedly lived between 12 million and 1.6 million years ago. But then he says 100,000 years ago. So we must change it to between 12 million and 100 thousand years ago. But wait.. He also says the Younger Dryas took them out. That was about 14 thousand years ago! So maybe between 12 million and 14 thousand? oops wrong again! The younger dryas did not take them out after all. We know the first nations hunters in Central America were still hunting them 13,400 years ago, hundreds of years after the younger dryas ended!! Meet the Gomphothere: UA Archaeologist Involved in Discovery of Bones of Elephant Ancestor

Now I have no actual idea about his main hypothesis other than it sounds very much like ridiculous woo that can't even be tested really.

However, a mind that found a way to be wrong 4 times about the same thing in one short paragraph really doesn't seem to be a very organised, educated or critical scientific mind at all.

We can probably safely dimiss this without too much more investigation. Sounds ridiculous on the surface, almost as ridiculous as an onion article. Probably even purposely written that way as a poe or a troll.
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:45 PM   #30
8enotto
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Given the discussion of avocados, I think this is more concerning to him than
This? Maybe. Frankly, its rather incoherent.
It is only possible to answer an incoherent theory with intentional incoherent questions. This dude makes no sense to even a non science guy like me.

Above all humans are omnivores and all woo aside we are designed to be able to eat most things resembling food safely. In and out of season foods was solved by transport systems meaning good food should be available just about anywhere in every season.
This isn't the 8th century anymore.
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Old 28th March 2019, 02:15 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It's complete bollocks, like everything Kruse spouts to separate gullible idiots from their money.
What, you dont have a magnetico sleep mattress to stay grounded to the earth's magnetic field?
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Old 8th April 2019, 05:43 PM   #32
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oxidative phosphorylation

When we eat foodstuffs, much of the chemical energy comes from starch or triacylglycerols (fats). Both can be made into acetyl CoA, which enters into the Krebs' cycle where it is oxidized. The electrons are mainly given to NAD to make NADH (some also are given to ubiquinone to make ubiquinol). The passage of these electrons through the electron transport chain and ultimately to molecular oxygen is indirectly responsible for the synthesis of ATP. However, it is mind-boggling to imagine how these electrons could...remember(?)...from which foodstuff they came. In other words, the idea presented in the opening post is beyond nonsense.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:35 PM   #33
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Old 8th April 2019, 09:40 PM   #34
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Why do people always assume that once you eat something your body will magically transport it to your cells and magic happens there?

Everything you eat is broken down to its component parts and transported trough a very complicated system into your cells in forms that are needed in that cell at the moment.
The fruit you've eaten arrives as glucose (or related sugars), amino acids and small organic molecules. And no, there is no difference between glucose from off-season fruit and seasonal fruit.

The same with the usual anti-oxidant woo. Yes, your body produces reactive oxygen species during its function. And every cell contains peroxisomes to deal with that. An anti-oxidant on its own by the way is JUST as reactive as an oxidant. It's like saying that because acid is bad for you, you should bathe in strong base.

Of course, since most anti-oxidants react with acid, >95% of those will never actually leave the stomach in any case.
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Old 8th April 2019, 10:06 PM   #35
SusanB-M1
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It's complete bollocks, like everything Kruse spouts to separate gullible idiots from their money.
In that case, I won't bother to look up this said neuro-surgeon in wikipedia!!
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Old 8th April 2019, 10:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
In that case, I won't bother to look up this said neuro-surgeon in wikipedia!!
I did it so you don't have to. There is no Wikipedia entry for "Jack Kruse". There is a "Jack Krause" but he's a Thai-German football player. "Jack Kraus" was a baseball player during the war. I hope your screen reader can cope with the different spellings
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Old 9th April 2019, 03:13 AM   #37
steenkh
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
The same with the usual anti-oxidant woo. Yes, your body produces reactive oxygen species during its function. And every cell contains peroxisomes to deal with that. An anti-oxidant on its own by the way is JUST as reactive as an oxidant. It's like saying that because acid is bad for you, you should bathe in strong base.

Of course, since most anti-oxidants react with acid, >95% of those will never actually leave the stomach in any case.
I saw a documentary on BBC ("Trust Me, I'm a Doctor") where they measured the level of free radicals before and after eating antioxidants, and the result was surprisingly that there were more free radicals in the body some time after eating antioxidants, because the body reacted to a lack of free radicals (that is apparently used as messenger molecules regulating muscle growth) by producing more of them.

Still, a lot of doctors advocate eating antioxidants in order to reduce the harmful free radicals.
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Old 9th April 2019, 10:23 AM   #38
SusanB-M1
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I did it so you don't have to. There is no Wikipedia entry for "Jack Kruse". There is a "Jack Krause" but he's a Thai-German football player. "Jack Kraus" was a baseball player during the war. I hope your screen reader can cope with the different spellings
Yes thank you! There was in fact a slight differentce in pronunciation too by Synthetic Dave.

Because I joined the GH message board first (followed closely by JREF and BBC), I still look in daily. However, even the Science board seems to be undergoing an attempt at a take-over bid by those who want to wedge a bit of woo into it.
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Old 9th April 2019, 10:27 AM   #39
Hellbound
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Yes thank you! There was in fact a slight differentce in pronunciation too by Synthetic Dave.

Because I joined the GH message board first (followed closely by JREF and BBC), I still look in daily. However, even the Science board seems to be undergoing an attempt at a take-over bid by those who want to wedge a bit of woo into it.
That is an awesome turn of phrase, Susan!

Wedge-woo. I like it. Immediately brings to mind "Woo of the Gaps" type arguments: find a place where science can't answer all the questions, and try to wedge your woo into it.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:37 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
That is an awesome turn of phrase, Susan!

Wedge-woo. I like it. Immediately brings to mind "Woo of the Gaps" type arguments: find a place where science can't answer all the questions, and try to wedge your woo into it.
I'm definitely using this phrase in the future.
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