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Tags Graecopithecus freybergi , human evolution , out of Africa

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Old 1st April 2019, 06:44 AM   #1
Red Baron Farms
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Possible hominin footprints from the late Miocene (c. 5.7 Ma) of Crete?

Mysterious fossil footprints may cast doubt on human evolution timeline

and the study

Possible hominin footprints from the late Miocene (c. 5.7 Ma) of Crete?

Not out of Africa but instead out of Crete and into Africa first, then back out of Africa later?

I don't like this title, it's very misleading troll headlines. Humans didn't split from chimps, we both evolved from a common ancestor. So the science writer who came up with the Title should be drawn and quartered so they understand what splitting from something means! regardless the rest of it is very intriguing!

Did human ancestors split from chimps in Europe, not Africa?

and the study:

Potential hominin affinities of Graecopithecus from the Late Miocene of Europe
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Old 1st April 2019, 10:08 AM   #2
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The authors of the study used the word split. I take it to mean diverges.

My first question; how do they know that is an authentic footprint and not a result of pareidolia.
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Old 1st April 2019, 10:41 AM   #3
Cainkane1
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Mysterious fossil footprints may cast doubt on human evolution timeline

and the study

Possible hominin footprints from the late Miocene (c. 5.7 Ma) of Crete?

Not out of Africa but instead out of Crete and into Africa first, then back out of Africa later?

I don't like this title, it's very misleading troll headlines. Humans didn't split from chimps, we both evolved from a common ancestor. So the science writer who came up with the Title should be drawn and quartered so they understand what splitting from something means! regardless the rest of it is very intriguing!

Did human ancestors split from chimps in Europe, not Africa?

and the study:

Potential hominin affinities of Graecopithecus from the Late Miocene of Europe
I'm of the opinion that many hominids left Africa before our ancestors did. Neanderthals, Denovesians etc. The footprints may be hominid but not human.
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:48 AM   #4
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I'm of the opinion that many hominids left Africa before our ancestors did. Neanderthals, Denovesians etc. The footprints may be hominid but not human.
Of course it's not human, almost 6 million years ago! But the prints show a relatively modern foot about 3 or 4 million years earlier than any other. I mean this is a bipedal foot with a big toe that couldn't grasp at all. This is a walking/running foot completely different than all other apes, many millions of years before previously found, or even hypothesized...
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Old 1st April 2019, 01:29 PM   #5
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The so far oldest bipedal fossil hominid ("Lucy") is 3.2 million years old. But we don't know how long Lucy's lineage is, or if other hominid branches evolved bipedalism. We have a tendency to think that any fossil we find denotes the max age of its lineage, but there is no reason to think so.

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Old 1st April 2019, 01:53 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
From that link:
Quote:
"This discovery challenges the established narrative of early human evolution head-on and is likely to generate a lot of debate," says Per Ahlberg, last author of the paper. "Whether the human origins research community will accept fossil footprints as conclusive evidence of the presence of hominins in the Miocene of Crete remains to be seen."


Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Then from the abstract:
Quote:
The print morphology suggests that the trackmaker was a basal member of the clade Hominini, but as Crete is some distance outside the known geographical range of pre-Pleistocene hominins we must also entertain the possibility that they represent a hitherto unknown late Miocene primate that convergently evolved human-like foot anatomy.


Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Not out of Africa but instead out of Crete and into Africa first, then back out of Africa later?
I don't see that's what they are saying.

Genetic analysis done by the Nat Geo society has mapped the routes homo sapiens took out of Africa to populate the world.

There are a number of hominids that had already left Africa: Neanderthals, Denisovans, and there's evidence for a few more.


Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I get it there is evidence of hominids and pre-hominids (insert correct term) in many places in the world that go back millions of years. I also get it maybe our last common ancestors with apes didn't live in Africa.

This is like saying one should draw the dividing line over there instead of over here and say that was the beginning. My head spins when I start thinking about that last common ancestor with apes, but is that really where homo sapiens began? Or is it more logical to look at our last common ancestor with a different hominid to mark the first humans?

I mean, are we talking about the first bipeds? The first hominids? How about the first ape?

Maybe I'm off base here but I think statements like "rethink evolution" are no more than someone ginning up a discovery there is no need to gin up.
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Old 1st April 2019, 02:47 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

I mean, are we talking about the first bipeds? The first hominids? How about the first ape?

Maybe I'm off base here but I think statements like "rethink evolution" are no more than someone ginning up a discovery there is no need to gin up.
Maybe, but Ardipithecus ramidus from 4.4 MYA had an opposable big toe and couldn't have made those prints. These are 5.7 MYA

So we have evidence that maybe these prints and bone are millions of years too soon and a continent away from what we always supposed was the origin of our line... assuming this is. It needs more evidence sure. But if it is true, it most certainly isn't "ginned up". It would be revolutionary groundbreaking if true.
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Old 1st April 2019, 03:23 PM   #8
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Questions.

How did hominids get on Crete 6MYA?
Were ancient hominids sailing around the Med at that time?
Could the Messinian Salinity Crisis be of any relevance here?

The Mediterranean may have ben completely dry at around the time when this footprint was made, a what we now call Crete may not have been an island at that time, but a high point in a large basin. It could have been reachable from Africa
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Old 1st April 2019, 03:45 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Questions.

How did hominids get on Crete 6MYA?
Were ancient hominids sailing around the Med at that time?
Could the Messinian Salinity Crisis be of any relevance here?

The Mediterranean may have ben completely dry at around the time when this footprint was made, a what we now call Crete may not have been an island at that time, but a high point in a large basin. It could have been reachable from Africa
Absolutely there was a possibility to walk there.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 05:26 AM   #10
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Not unlikely:
Quote:
Geological evidence indicates that around 5.9 million years ago, the Mediterranean was cut off from the Atlantic and was partly or completely desiccated over a period of some 600,000 years, the Messinian salinity crisis, before being refilled by the Zanclean flood about 5.3 million years ago.
Mediterranean Sea (Wikipedia)
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Old 2nd April 2019, 11:08 AM   #11
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Maybe when they find some bones and dentition there can be stronger conclusions drawn
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Old 2nd April 2019, 11:20 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Maybe when they find some bones and dentition there can be stronger conclusions drawn
Pfft. Just wait until they find their pyramids!
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Old 2nd April 2019, 11:39 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Maybe when they find some bones and dentition there can be stronger conclusions drawn
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0177127
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Old 5th April 2019, 03:35 PM   #14
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Old 5th April 2019, 04:35 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
"dated to the early Messinian at 7.175 Ma and 7.24 Ma"


Wait? They can date range this stuff seven million years ago to within a thousand years?
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Old 5th April 2019, 06:26 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wait? They can date range this stuff seven million years ago to within a thousand years?

Think you're misinterpreting the digits of precision there. That's a 65,000 year gap which makes that digit you highlighted a bit trivial.
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Old 5th April 2019, 06:59 PM   #17
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"dated to the early Messinian at 7.175 Ma and 7.24 Ma"


Wait? They can date range this stuff seven million years ago to within a thousand years?
Well I think they have this particular one down pretty precisely due to the concurrent volcanism and ash layer directly over the prints.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:54 PM   #18
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So what's the basis of this theory? Seems like some kind of Ad Hominin argument?
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Old 5th April 2019, 11:24 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
So what's the basis of this theory? Seems like some kind of Ad Hominin argument?
Seems like nom bait.
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