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Old 1st April 2019, 09:53 AM   #1
jonesdave116
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Have we got an image of SgrA* event horizon?

Media Advisory: Press Conference on First Result from the Event Horizon Telescope

https://www.eso.org/public/announcements/ann19018/

Will be streamed online. Doesn't sound like they are going to say, "we didn't see anything!"
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Old 2nd April 2019, 05:16 AM   #2
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It doesn't appear to be an April 1st prank: https://www.sciencealert.com/the-eve...e-announcement
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Old 2nd April 2019, 05:31 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It doesn't appear to be an April 1st prank: https://www.sciencealert.com/the-eve...e-announcement
Oh, definitely not a prank! This year's physics Nobel, I would venture.

https://twitter.com/ehtelescope/stat...35123643006976
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Old 2nd April 2019, 05:45 AM   #4
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Cool.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 08:08 AM   #5
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If anyone can SEE an event horizon, that would be major news in physics. More likely it's the radiation from the accretion disk.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 08:10 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
If anyone can SEE an event horizon, that would be major news in physics. More likely it's the radiation from the accretion disk.
Pedantic party pooper!
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Old 2nd April 2019, 08:14 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
If anyone can SEE an event horizon, that would be major news in physics. More likely it's the radiation from the accretion disk.
Has that not been seen plenty of times already? Would they make such a fuss about it now?
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Old 2nd April 2019, 10:27 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
If anyone can SEE an event horizon, that would be major news in physics. More likely it's the radiation from the accretion disk.
Trust me, it IS major news in physics. I wasn't joking about the Nobel Prize. They will see the silhouette of the BH on the event horizon. Accretion disks are no big deal - we see them in IR when the SMBH has a little feed, now and again.



https://eventhorizontelescope.org/bl...ate-may-1-2018
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Old 2nd April 2019, 10:45 AM   #9
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Here is a more in depth look at what they are hoping to achieve, from a lecture last year by Avery Broderick at the Perimeter Institute;

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(85 mins)
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Old 4th April 2019, 06:35 PM   #10
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Maybe the BBC had privileged access?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00042l4
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:24 AM   #11
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I'm guessing a group of tightly co-orbiting quarks stars.
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Old 6th April 2019, 06:39 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Trust me, it IS major news in physics. I wasn't joking about the Nobel Prize. They will see the silhouette of the BH on the event horizon. Accretion disks are no big deal - we see them in IR when the SMBH has a little feed, now and again.

https://static.projects.iq.harvard.e...&itok=vANJt_GW

https://eventhorizontelescope.org/bl...ate-may-1-2018
So it is the radiation from the accretion disk that they're seeing and not the event horizon, they've just managed to image the innermost part of the accretion disk which allows them to get a measure of the shape of the event horizon but they're not imaging the event horizon itself.
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Old 6th April 2019, 07:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So it is the radiation from the accretion disk that they're seeing and not the event horizon, they've just managed to image the innermost part of the accretion disk which allows them to get a measure of the shape of the event horizon but they're not imaging the event horizon itself.
No, it is the silhouette of the BH on the event horizon. As per the infographic I posted in post #8.
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Old 6th April 2019, 07:22 AM   #14
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To those claiming this isn't an image of the event horizon: If I show you a photograph of a person's shadow, I'm pretty sure you'll agree that it's a photo of a shadow and won't pedantically say "No, that's a photo of the light around the shadow", even though without that light there'd be no shadow to see.
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Old 6th April 2019, 07:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
No, it is the silhouette of the BH on the event horizon. As per the infographic I posted in post #8.
No it isn't, it's a silhouette of the event horizon on the innermost part of the accretion disk. Your distinction between the BH and the event horizon makes no sense anyway, since the operational definition of the BH is the event horizon.
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Old 6th April 2019, 07:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
To those claiming this isn't an image of the event horizon: If I show you a photograph of a person's shadow, I'm pretty sure you'll agree that it's a photo of a shadow and won't pedantically say "No, that's a photo of the light around the shadow", even though without that light there'd be no shadow to see.
Except that in this case the distinction is important, and even if we let the language be inexact as per your example then the description of "the silhouette of the BH on the event horizon" is still plain wrong.
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Old 6th April 2019, 07:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Generically, a black hole casts a silhouette on the wallpaper of emissions by nearby accreting gas. This “shadow” arises because the black hole swallows light rays coming toward the observer from just behind it. Meanwhile the bright region around the “shadow” is supplemented by other light waves from behind the black hole that just miss the horizon. Strong gravitational lensing bends light rays so that even material directly behind the black hole will contribute to the light around the dark region. The resulting silhouette is what is meant by a “portrait of a black hole,” a fitting picture in which the black hole truly is black.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ysics-special/

The author is the same person who is giving the lecture in the video I linked, which might be worth a look for those that seem a bit confused about what is being imaged.
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Old 6th April 2019, 07:51 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ysics-special/

The author is the same person who is giving the lecture in the video I linked, which might be worth a look for those that seem a bit confused about what is being imaged.
So the author agrees with me and disagrees with you...

ETA:
Quote:
Generically, a black hole casts a silhouette on the wallpaper of emissions by nearby accreting gas. This “shadow” arises because the black hole swallows light rays coming toward the observer from just behind it. Meanwhile the bright region around the “shadow” is supplemented by other light waves from behind the black hole that just miss the horizon. Strong gravitational lensing bends light rays so that even material directly behind the black hole will contribute to the light around the dark region. The resulting silhouette is what is meant by a “portrait of a black hole,” a fitting picture in which the black hole truly is black.
As I said, it is the silhouette of the event horizon on the innermost part of the accretion disk, not the silhouette of the BH on the event horizon (which is nonsensical since the BH is the event horizon, as per the common definition of a BH).
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Old 6th April 2019, 08:17 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Here is a more in depth look at what they are hoping to achieve, from a lecture last year by Avery Broderick at the Perimeter Institute;

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
(85 mins)

I click fullscreen and it says fullscreen is not available. Click here to learn more, which dumps you into a generic full screen explanation. Which conveniently leaves out that they want you to watch on YouTube so they can run ads.
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Old 6th April 2019, 09:00 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So the author agrees with me and disagrees with you...

ETA:


As I said, it is the silhouette of the event horizon on the innermost part of the accretion disk, not the silhouette of the BH on the event horizon (which is nonsensical since the BH is the event horizon, as per the common definition of a BH).
Well, maybe it is just the use of different terminology in different articles/ papers by the same author. And even within the same paper;

From the abstract;

Quote:
The silhouette cast by the horizon of the supermassive black hole in M87 can now be resolved with the emerging millimeter very long baseline interferometry (VLBI) capability.
From the conclusions;

Quote:
Despite being dominated by a jet at millimeter wavelengths, the black hole silhouette, cast against the base of the counter jet, is still clearly present,....
IMAGING THE BLACK HOLE SILHOUETTE OF M87: IMPLICATIONS FOR JET FORMATION AND BLACK HOLE SPIN
Avery E. Broderick and Abraham Loeb
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...#apj301076s3-4
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Old 6th April 2019, 03:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
I click fullscreen and it says fullscreen is not available. Click here to learn more, which dumps you into a generic full screen explanation. Which conveniently leaves out that they want you to watch on YouTube so they can run ads.
Adblock extension.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdBlock

Alternatively, watch it on the Perimeter institute's website;

https://insidetheperimeter.ca/event-...ublic-lecture/
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:13 AM   #22
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24 hours to go

Livestreams;

https://www.eso.org/public/live/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=Dr20f19czeE
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Old 9th April 2019, 08:05 AM   #23
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Veritasium: How to understand the image of a black hole.
This is what the image may look like.
http://https://youtu.be/zUyH3XhpLTo

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Old 9th April 2019, 02:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Steve001 View Post
Veritasium: How to understand the image of a black hole.
This is what the image may look like.
http://https://youtu.be/zUyH3XhpLTo
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:26 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Thanks for that, really helped me understand what we could expect to see. Strongly recommend it to folk like me that can't visualise what happens to light around a black hole.
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:45 AM   #26
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!!!TEN MINUTE WARNING!!!
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
!!!TEN MINUTE WARNING!!!
THREE!!!!!!
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:52 AM   #28
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1 minute
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:52 AM   #29
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I've waited 15 billion years, I think I can wait a bit longer.
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:58 AM   #30
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Damn, they forgot the lens cap on...
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:58 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Spyke View Post
Damn, they forgot the lens cap on...
it's a cover-up...
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:01 AM   #32
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What happened?
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:03 AM   #33
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It's M87!!!!!!!!
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No it isn't, it's a silhouette of the event horizon on the innermost part of the accretion disk. Your distinction between the BH and the event horizon makes no sense anyway, since the operational definition of the BH is the event horizon.
Yes, let's not confuse "black hole" with "singularity". The black hole kinda includes the event horizon.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:32 AM   #35
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:41 AM   #36
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https://iopscience.iop.org/journal/2041-8205
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:41 AM   #37
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So that's what the devil's anus looks like...
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:48 AM   #38
jonesdave116
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So that's what the devil's anus looks like...
Except that there ain't no **** getting out of M87*!
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:49 AM   #39
Belz...
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Nonsense. Just aim to the center. I saw that in plenty of movies, and cinema has never failed to give me valuable life lessons.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:10 AM   #40
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Somebody explain what we're seeing there like I was a bright ten year old, please.

I think I gleaned that we may be looking at the inner edge of an accretion disc around a black hole's event horizon, oriented almost face on and glowing in mm wavelength radio frequencies. So how does "silhouette" come into it, because to me that implies the event horizon is blocking light coming from behind?
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