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Old 13th April 2019, 08:50 AM   #401
dann
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Men and women steal. You can't tell thieves from non-thieves by looking at them. Therefore, you must assume that all people are thieves and it is all peoples' collective responsibility to put a stop to stealing.

Well, that just sounds silly.

You don't lock your door when you leave? Or your car?
Well, that just sounds silly.


ETA: Never heard of neighborhood watch groups? ("all people's collective responsibility") They don't assume that everybody is a thief, but they know that a lot of people are.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 13th April 2019 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 13th April 2019, 08:51 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Anti-feminism is usually one of their core beliefs, so I'm not sure how that's avoidable.



A few of us are finding common ground, so I think this is the good sort of thread drift, personally.
I obviously disagree, I'd much rather take the opportunity to hear from our relative newcomers who are MRAs. Feminism has been discussed a lot by the many feminists we have on this forum over the years, we've not had many chances to hear from MRAs.

But of course the thread will go where it goes.
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Old 13th April 2019, 08:52 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Six of one...

^^ Quick, dann! Make sure you 'No True Scotsman' kellyb as well! Dann? Dann!? Where are you going?

You wish! No, I'm not going anywhere.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2019, 08:53 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I obviously disagree, I'd much rather take the opportunity to hear from our relative newcomers who are MRAs. Feminism has been discussed a lot by the many feminists we have on this forum over the years, we've not had many chances to hear from MRAs.

I think we are hearing from them in this thread!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2019, 08:58 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think we are hearing from them in this thread!
If I were in the mood to be a PA, baiting butthole, I'd make a "This thread is an MRA safe space. We should respect that" joke.

But I won't.

No one is shutting them down.

It's dialogue.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:01 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, he's right. See my above post. Any strange man knocking on my door could, in theory, be a rapist or robber or both. Men deal with the same thing to a lesser extent. She did not say "all men are rapists" at all.
Yes, exactly, men deal with the same fears, not so much about being raped but about being a victim of stranger violence.

What she said is "assume that all men are rapists", close enough. If the social justice types want us to take the whole concept of dogwhistles and microagressions even remotely seriously they they "must take collective responsibility" when it comes from one of their own.

Who cares what the source is ? What matters is is the information being presented correct ? I'd have posted a Guardian link but for some reason, they're not covering it.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:04 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Men and women steal. You can't tell thieves from non-thieves by looking at them. Therefore, you must assume that all people are thieves and it is all peoples' collective responsibility to put a stop to stealing.



Well, that just sounds silly.
Actually it doesn't. It simply seems to be one of those "well duh" statements.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:05 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Yes, exactly, men deal with the same fears, not so much about being raped but about being a victim of stranger violence.

What she said is "assume that all men are rapists", close enough. If the social justice types want us to take the whole concept of dogwhistles and microagressions even remotely seriously they they "must take collective responsibility" when it comes from one of their own.

Who cares what the source is ? What matters is is the information being presented correct ? I'd have posted a Guardian link but for some reason, they're not covering it.
I'm just going to quote dann and say I'm 99% sure he's correct here:

Quote:
What she does say is that since women can't tell the difference from the mere appearance of a man, they have to assume that all men are rapists. I would have preferred if she'd said that she had to assume that any man may be a rapist. That would have been closer to the meaning that she intends.
That's the core idea I hear in her words.... "she had to assume that any man may be a rapist."

eta: I was incorrect to say she didn't say that, because she did. My bad.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:06 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think...sigh...the responsibility for ending rape more falls upon mothers to raise their sons to not be rapists.

The looney tunes feminists would kill me if they heard me say that. LOL

I googled Mothers, Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Rapists, but it never occurred to Weird Al Yankovic to do it, apparently.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:08 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Actually it doesn't. It simply seems to be one of those "well duh" statements.
It borders on being a tautology. I guess they're silly sometimes? lol
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:09 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I googled Mothers, Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Rapists, but it never occurred to Weird Al Yankovic to do it, apparently.
I've actually made that same joke with one of my cool, chillax feminist friends before who's raising a son my son's age. Just minus the Weird Al part.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:12 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think...sigh...the responsibility for ending rape more falls upon mothers to raise their sons to not be rapists.

The looney tunes feminists would kill me if they heard me say that. LOL
Think about that though. Is there an implication that up until now those mothers have encouraged their sons to rape? Do rapists run in families?

I think the issue is way more complicated than that and that we have fallen for this mantra that it is a simple thing, "If only moms trained their sons properly."

Study after study shows that people, male and female, will do things in an aroused state that they would never do otherwise. (Arousal is not necessarily sexual but any emotionally charged state.) We see this reflected with women who admit to consenting to a sexual act then regretting it later, when their arousal is gone, and claiming they were assaulted.

These studies explain why "Just say 'no' to sex" is not good for reducing teen pregnancy rates while issuing your child condoms to be carried 24/7 is. the "Just say no" model fails to account for the change in choices aroused people make from what they think they would do when in a rational state.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:13 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm just going to quote dann and say I'm 99% sure he's correct here:


That's the core idea I hear in her words.... "she had to assume that any man may be a rapist."

eta: I was incorrect to say she didn't say that, because she did. My bad.

You intended to quote me but turned the quotation into gibberish!
A link to the actual quotation!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:15 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Think about that though. Is there an implication that up until now those mothers have encouraged their sons to rape? Do rapists run in families?

I think the issue is way more complicated than that and that we have fallen for this mantra that it is a simple thing, "If only moms trained their sons properly."

Study after study shows that people, male and female, will do things in an aroused state that they would never do otherwise. (Arousal is not necessarily sexual but any emotionally charged state.) We see this reflected with women who admit to consenting to a sexual act then regretting it later, when their arousal is gone, and claiming they were assaulted.

These studies explain why "Just say 'no' to sex" is not good for reducing teen pregnancy rates while issuing your child condoms to be carried 24/7 is. the "Just say no" model fails to account for the change in choices aroused people make from what they think they would do when in a rational state.
Your post reads to me like a non sequitur nightmare, but...okay. Sure.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:15 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd assume it was at least partially effective. You look it up.
I have been. Not much on it since Germany decided not to do any follow up studies on the matter. Some modelling shows a difference in the number of mothers with young children returning to work, others not, It depends on what assumptions the model uses.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:17 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Do rapists run in families?

Since you're asking: Yes, apparently! Sexual offending runs in families: A 37-year nationwide study (International Journal of Epidemiology, April 6, 2015)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:18 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You intended to quote me but turned the quotation into gibberish!
A link to the actual quotation!
I'm so sorry! For years my "home" internet forum was a vbulletin one where you were FORCED to preview your post before hitting submit. I've never quite recovered from the habits of that convenient inconvienence.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:20 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I have been. Not much on it since Germany decided not to do any follow up studies on the matter. Some modelling shows a difference in the number of mothers with young children returning to work, others not, It depends on what assumptions the model uses.
It just went into effect in 2014, that new version I posted. There probably hasn't been enough time yet. Science is slow like that.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:23 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Since you're asking: Yes, apparently! Sexual offending runs in families: A 37-year nationwide study (International Journal of Epidemiology, April 6, 2015)
Quote:
We report strong evidence of familial clustering of sexual offending, primarily accounted for by genes rather than shared environmental influences.
That's grim, if true.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:30 AM   #420
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More details here:

Quote:
Heritability estimates
Using a probit GLMM with full and half-brothers, we estimated that genetic factors contributed 40% (95% CI = 17%–48%) of the variability in any sexual crime compared with 2% (95% CI = 0%–13%) by the shared family environment. Shared environment would include factors that are primarily constant across children growing up together, such as parental attitudes and neighbourhood. The remaining variance (58%) was explained by unique environment (e.g. perinatal adversities, biological factors, and social events and processes) not shared by brothers, and measurement error. Although point estimates suggested greater heritability for child molestation than for rape, the statistical power was limited and confidence intervals overlapped. Specifically, genetic factors tended to explain less variance in rape of an adult (heritability = 19%, 95% CI = 0%–57%; shared environment = 15%, 95% CI = 0%–29%; non-shared, unique environment and measurement error = 66%) than for child molestation (heritability = 46%, 95% CI = 0%–59%; shared environment = 0%, 95% CI = 0%–29%; non-shared, unique environment and measurement error = 54%).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 13th April 2019, 09:51 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
More details here:
Huh. "perinatal adversities, biological factors" is still...grim.
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:53 AM   #422
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So is "point estimates suggested greater heritability for child molestation than for rape."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:56 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So is "point estimates suggested greater heritability for child molestation than for rape."
Yeah.

Let's switch back to a lighthearted topic, like PUAs and Incels!
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:01 AM   #424
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I guess that the former rather than the latter is more likely to run in families!
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:06 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I guess that the former rather than the latter is more likely to run in families!
Yeah, according to all available science, that's true! LOL!
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:09 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's grim, if true.
What's even grimmer is the studies recommendations on what should be done.

Quote:
The authors urged authorities to consider interventions for the male relatives of sexual offenders, including counselling on appropriate sexual behaviour or even offering medications designed to lower sex drive.

Link..from the Guardian no less


Hey Bob...your brother groped a woman we've opened a file on you. We'd like to suggest you chemically castrate yourself, just in case.
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:18 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah.

Let's switch back to a lighthearted topic, like PUAs and Incels!
We could always drag something up from the MRA Reddit and beat the crap out of it.
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:26 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
What's even grimmer is the studies recommendations on what should be done.



Link..from the Guardian no less


Hey Bob...your brother groped a woman we've opened a file on you. We'd like to suggest you chemically castrate yourself, just in case.
Grim, indeed.
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:35 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
We could always drag something up from the MRA Reddit and beat the crap out of it.
I could discuss the black hole one, but I really just want to say that it looks like the large genderwars subreddits are the most unhealthy places on the internet.
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:44 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I could discuss the black hole one, but I really just want to say that it looks like the large genderwars subreddits are the most unhealthy places on the internet.
Wouldn't you know it, that's the one I skipped. just being lazy I guess.

I agree, one should limit their exposure to toxicity.
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:45 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Wouldn't you know it, that's the one I skipped. just being lazy I guess.

I agree, one should limit their exposure to toxicity.
The OP was fine, but some of the comments, wow.
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Old 13th April 2019, 11:56 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The OP was fine, but some of the comments, wow.
Agreed, I didn't read all the words in all the comments ( like I did in the OP and linked article ) but, yea, there's a few in there that need to be removed. It looks like some are but the one that starts with "The only black hole that feminists...." is downright disgusting.
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Old 13th April 2019, 01:04 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
the one that starts with "The only black hole that feminists...." is downright disgusting.
Seems to have gone. What did it say?
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Old 13th April 2019, 01:08 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You wish! No, I'm not going anywhere.
No, I meant that you wouldn't in a million years hold someone who called themselves a feminist to the same standards as someone who called themselves an MRA, and you haven't. When I say, 'No MRA I know thinks x' I'm told that it's a 'No True Scotsman', but when kellyb does exactly the same thing, crickets from you.

You've proved me completely right but your head is too far up your own ideology to see it

Anyway, that's the last you're going to get from me; you are not engaging in good faith, as I've proved here and in the other thread.
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Old 13th April 2019, 01:33 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Men do not need to be privileged for men to dominate positions of social privilege.

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Old 13th April 2019, 01:47 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Check Belz...'s signature It quotes BobTheCoward saying, 'My views are nonsense - so what?' Pretty obvious to me that he's either trolling or he's the kind of person that was parodied in an English comic called 'Viz' in the form of the character 'Mr. Logic'.

You'll notice that BobTheCoward gives a quote from wikipedia to define 'patriarchy', then when I challenged him on that definition he said, 'I never said that' (which, of course, he didn't, he only quoted it as an 'adequate' definition!); that's classic 'Mr. Logic' and enough reason for me personally to conclude he's not arguing in good faith and can be ignored.

His explanation for the above will be something along the lines of, 'The word 'Men' does not need to mean 'all men'. 'Men' can, in fact, simply mean two men.' and so on and so on.
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Old 13th April 2019, 01:53 PM   #437
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While I find value in some of your observations, engaging trolls is rarely productive unless one is simply seeking to increase their post count...
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Old 13th April 2019, 01:58 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
While I find value in some of your observations, engaging trolls is rarely productive unless one is simply seeking to increase their post count...
Well, yes - but I didn't know that's what he was doing initially. I have indeed stopped engaging with him now.
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Old 13th April 2019, 02:12 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Anti-feminism is usually one of their core beliefs, so I'm not sure how that's avoidable.

A few of us are finding common ground, so I think this is the good sort of thread drift, personally.
Disagree

I think a fair bit is some feminists assuming people who are concerned with mens issues (men and women, as there are both, as there is with female rights) get defensive because the focus is not them, and throw out the "must be anti-famale" line.

When it has frankly, zero to do with feminists
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Old 13th April 2019, 03:18 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Disagree

I think a fair bit is some feminists assuming people who are concerned with mens issues (men and women, as there are both, as there is with female rights) get defensive because the focus is not them, and throw out the "must be anti-famale" line.

When it has frankly, zero to do with feminists
Way back in post #7 the person whose views occasioned this thread and who has been among the relatively low number of people speaking for a MRA viewpoint posted this:

Quote:
Given that a huge number of men's issues are a direct result of feminist ideology and its influence on society, it is unsurprising that most MRAs are also antifeminists. In my opinion, if you're an MRA and not an antifeminist then you don't know very much about feminist ideology and imagine that feminism means wanting to treat everybody equally, which it does not. That's egalitarianism.
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