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Old 8th April 2017, 07:42 AM   #1761
TraneWreck
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I really don't feel like we are seeing eye to eye here on what we are discussing. My entire point and premise is on your use of phrases such as not a 'big problem/major problem/a problem at all' etc. My view is that people such as yourself are not affected negatively by illegal immigration and as such do not view it as a problem. But there are people and communities that are. We can disagree on if the trade-offs are worth it for the country at large, but I think you first have to acknowledge what I am saying. As well, I have never advocated for a wall.
Any problem in the United Stats of America that can be solved with $190 million is not a big problem.

But fair enough. Maybe it is an issue of perspective. My perspective includes an insane presidential election with thousands of people changing, "BUILD THE WALL, BUILD THE WALL!!" It includes public opinion polls that Trump supporters think immigration is a more pressing issue than health care, the environment, education, and Social Security:

http://www.people-press.org/2016/07/...2016-election/

People were freaking fired up about it. And again, it just isn't a big problem. Sure, there are people affected, but a minor appropriations bill from the Feds could correct all state and local shortfalls (again, ignoring all economic benefit generated by that population) and labor laws aimed at improving conditions for immigrants. Eliminate the ability of employers to extort value from immigrant labor, eliminate the minor effect on wages.

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Taking state wide numbers and saying that is a small number is distributing the burden. That does not account for the costs not being spread statewide.
The resources to solve the problem should come from the federal level, which is all of our money. The problem is incredibly tiny compared to our budget. It's an easy fix.


Quote:
Again, nothing I said implied a waste. I have repeatedly pointed out that I am referring to their being winners and losers in this. If I say we should spend money on school lunches and you think that money should be spent on extra curriculum activities, there is no implication of waste, just a difference of priorities. Each will have different affects on different people.
This is incorrect. You are trying to show that there is a "problem" with immigration in this country. You chose to support this claim with a study that showed budgetary shortfalls - more resources spent on undocumented people than brought in through taxes. If that money is useful - helping people, helping the economy, how is it a problem? That would be a good thing and totally undercut your point.

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5% statewide as I said doesn't mean much if that 5% is concentrated in a much smaller portion of locations within the state.
Right, but the amount is tiny. It could be corrected with less than what we spend when a hurricane hits an area.

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For example if a higher concentration of illegal immigrants reside in a town, causing taxes to rise to accommodate the schooling of their children, the town next to it can benefit from families moving there to lower their tax burden. Thus raising revenue there. And lowering the tax base in the original town. Which raises the amount needed to be collected by the residents remaining. It really isn't difficult to understand what I am saying and I am beginning to think you are purposefully ignoring my point.
What makes you think I don't understand? A certain area has a bigger issue than another, though you've not substantiated that point, just discussed it in theory. Feel free to break down a country suffering.

But the correction is a tiny, tiny sum of money from the federal budget to assist those areas in providing services. Any problem that can be solved with $190 million in the US is not a big problem.


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Sorry but this is a 'can't have your cake and eat it too' moment. Do they commit crime at lower rates or is it reported from within their community less? You repeat often that they are the victims because they are hesitant to report crimes due to their illegal status.
(1) The stats show they commit crimes at a lower rate. This is a fact.

(2) Also a fact, they report fewer crimes because they are scared to go to the authorities.

This is a sad, cynical attempt on your part. First, a lot of the crime against immigrants is perpetrated by citizens. So, you don't just get to use the black box to bolster undefined fears about scary brown people.

The hysteria of the Trump voter is fueled by the image of immigrants attacking nice white people. You're trying to use the lack of reporting wherein immigrants are the victims to suggest the number in which they were perpetrators would be higher. Even were that the case, that would not generate the number you're looking for.

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Even if you believe they commit crime at lower rates, would you agree that it is directly related to their classification as illegal immigrants, and the fear of deportation associated with it? Or are illegal immigrants just better people?
This is a pointless hypothetical. I could just as easily say it's because they come here to work. They're a self-selected population of motivated people and they aren't here to participate in crime.

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This applies to a number of your views on illegal immigrants. Your claim that they receive less benefits than native born and legal immigrants for example. This is only true in that they are ineligible for a number of benefits. For those which they are eligible, they collect at a higher rate

The fact they are illegal and remain illegal is one of the largest contributing factors to basically all of the positives you present.
This is not true. Their economic activity remains, legal or illegal.

And bringing them into the system eliminates the sole reason you've offered for it being a problem: make it official, they start paying more into the system.

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Economic activity doesn't mean anything too me. It is not an argument. If more people means more economic activity, we can increase legal immigration to offset anything you are going on about. And we can replace with individuals that are educated and ready to enter the work force at much higher income rates.
This is just wrong. Go read what happened in Alabama and Georgia. They could not replace that labor. If it's as easy as you say, why haven't they succeeded? It's been a number of years.
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Old 8th April 2017, 11:44 AM   #1762
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Would you make that argument about our national defense?
You tell me. Do you think our military spending should be spending just for its own sake, or do you think our military spending should be guided by the actual needs of our military to do the job it needs to do?

Originally Posted by logger View Post
I've also never heard of it costing anywhere near a trillion.
Feel free to substitute your own number. It's still a large number, and it still requires ongoing maintenance.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
And I think your terribly minimising what our law enforcement deal with.
I think they can deal with it while killing fewer people. I think we need peace officers and not storm troopers.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
And I'll make a prediction, the new training they receive will never change the outcomes of force and perceived racism. Agreed?
What new training are you referring to?
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Old 8th April 2017, 12:53 PM   #1763
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Mod WarningFolks, you are wondering all over the place. If you have an interest in discussing Okies or border walls or wild pigs or anything else that strikes your fancy (within the rules, of course), go right ahead. The only caveat is that if it is not the topic of this thread, then don't post it in this thread. Post it elsewhere; start a new thread if necessary.

If you are having difficulty remembering the topic of this thread, may I suggest a quick read of the thread title. It contains a solid clue.
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Old 11th April 2017, 05:11 PM   #1764
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Classified docs contradict Nunes surveillance claims, GOP and Dem sources say

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After a review of the same intelligence reports brought to light by House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes, both Republican and Democratic lawmakers and aides have so far found no evidence that Obama administration officials did anything unusual or illegal, multiple sources in both parties tell CNN.

Their private assessment contradicts President Donald Trump's allegations that former Obama national security adviser Susan Rice broke the law by requesting the "unmasking" of US individuals' identities. Trump had claimed the matter was a "massive story."

However, over the last week, several members and staff of the House and Senate intelligence committees have reviewed intelligence reports related to those requests at NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland.

One congressional intelligence source described the requests made by Rice as "normal and appropriate" for officials who serve in that role to the president.

And another source said there's "absolutely" no smoking gun in the reports, urging the White House to declassify them to make clear there was nothing alarming in the documents.
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Old 11th April 2017, 06:12 PM   #1765
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Leaked per Rachel Maddow tonight: there was a FISA warrant to monitor Carter Page. I'm taking the post to the Trump+Russia thread however, because it may be wider than just spying on the Trump camp.
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Old 11th April 2017, 06:31 PM   #1766
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And, now this!

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CNN Exclusive: Classified docs contradict Nunes surveillance claims, GOP and Dem sources say

Washington (CNN)After a review of the same intelligence reports brought to light by House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes, both Republican and Democratic lawmakers and aides have so far found no evidence that Obama administration officials did anything unusual or illegal, multiple sources in both parties tell CNN.

Their private assessment contradicts President Donald Trump's allegations that former Obama national security adviser Susan Rice broke the law by requesting the "unmasking" of US individuals' identities. Trump had claimed the matter was a "massive story."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/11/politi...ims/index.html
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Old 12th April 2017, 06:28 AM   #1767
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Trump now retroactively saying he meant "unmasking" rather than wiretapping which he didn't.

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Old 12th April 2017, 10:57 AM   #1768
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Trump now retroactively saying he meant "unmasking" rather than wiretapping which he didn't.
Because piling obvious lie upon obvious lie is the gold standard for acting presidential.
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Old 16th April 2017, 10:32 AM   #1769
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Because piling obvious lie upon obvious lie is the gold standard for acting presidential.
It's also the gold standard for the GOP.

Lindsay Graham is now accusing Susan Rice of political motivation in unmasking incidental names in the intel she was getting from the CIA. This even now when we know there were good reasons to unmask the names in that intel: Carter Page, Manafort, Flynn, Russian election interference...

On top of that he threw in the completely discredited Benghazi charge that Rice's statements after the attack were part of a purposeful cover-up.

So much for the respect I had for the man after he and McCain stood their ground against Trump recently.
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Old 16th April 2017, 12:37 PM   #1770
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So much for the respect I had for the man after he and McCain stood their ground against Trump recently.
As I've indicated repeatedly, don't believe the hype when it comes to Republicans breaking ranks and making sense until they do more than flap their old white male gums.
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Old 17th April 2017, 04:47 PM   #1771
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It is interesting that the Republicans have to deal with the fact that their "evidence" of Obama spying on Trump is not that at all, but is instead evidence of why the FBI and other national security agencies came to believe that the Trump campaign was probably colluding with Russia (which in the olden days, if done by a Democrat, would be considered treason, but apparently that is all okay if done by Republicans now). It's as if our intercepts of Soviet Union communications in the 1980s unearthed documents implicating Aldrich Ames in the ratting out of American spies and the Republicans threw a hissy-fit because Ames's name was unmasked by the Feds in their internal documents. Ames deserved privacy too, I guess??

Puts the Republicans in a difficult position, and I've sensed that they are trying to now move this issue more into the ignore category. But as to Trump himself- who knows...
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Old 1st May 2017, 11:07 AM   #1772
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Trump abruptely ended interview with CBS News, when he was asked to expand the wiretapping claim.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/trump-...tapping-claim/

I suppose in Trump's world, the wiretapping is now established fact, and lord help those who dare question it...
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:20 PM   #1773
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Trump abruptely ended interview with CBS News, when he was asked to expand the wiretapping claim.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/trump-...tapping-claim/

I suppose in Trump's world, the wiretapping is now established fact, and lord help those who dare question it...
Has he thought through his proposed changes to the libel laws?

He must realise at some level that his derogatory claims would open him up to such claims?
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:24 PM   #1774
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Has he thought through his proposed changes to the libel laws?



He must realise at some level that his derogatory claims would open him up to such claims?


I think in his mind, he is always truthful and so has worries about his proposed changes.
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:25 PM   #1775
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Has he thought through his proposed changes to the libel laws?

He must realise at some level that his derogatory claims would open him up to such claims?
Exactly! I believe that he is already at risk because many of his claims have no relationship to his duties as President. Changing the libel laws would leave him extremely exposed!

But that assumes that he is thinking this through...
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:26 PM   #1776
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Exactly! I believe that he is already at risk because many of his claims have no relationship to his duties as President. Changing the libel laws would leave him extremely exposed!

But that assumes that he is thinking this through...
I'm sure there will be a clause that exempts the president, as with the nepotism rules that allow his family to take over government.
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Old 1st May 2017, 08:35 PM   #1777
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Trump abruptely ended interview with CBS News, when he was asked to expand the wiretapping claim.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/trump-...tapping-claim/

I suppose in Trump's world, the wiretapping is now established fact, and lord help those who dare question it...
That was flat-out disturbing, even for Trump.

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I AGREE


What an ugly, infantile, fact-challenged, dim-witted weasel.
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Old 1st May 2017, 11:45 PM   #1778
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
I'm sure there will be a clause that exempts the president Trump , as with the nepotism rules that allow his family to take over government.
FTFY!
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Old 1st May 2017, 11:47 PM   #1779
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Has he thought through his proposed changes to the libel laws?

He must realise at some level that his derogatory claims would open him up to such claims?
Seriously why would he - he hasn't had to be responsible for any of his decisions and actions throughout his life so why would he start to believe he would be accountable or liable?
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Old 2nd May 2017, 03:40 AM   #1780
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
That was flat-out disturbing, even for Trump.

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What an ugly, infantile, fact-challenged, dim-witted weasel.
Just look at the journalists face when Trump refuses to respond to his question. That smug smirk is indicative of the satisfaction one can only get from making the President of the US look like a clown. Priceless.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 03:58 AM   #1781
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Old 2nd May 2017, 04:11 AM   #1782
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When Trump went over to his desk and shuffled some papers, I thought he looked incredibly small.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 04:28 AM   #1783
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Just look at the journalists face when Trump refuses to respond to his question. That smug smirk is indicative of the satisfaction one can only get from making the President of the US look like a clown. Priceless.
I don't think it was the journalist that made Trump look like a clown.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 04:36 AM   #1784
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't think it was the journalist that made Trump look like a clown.
What I think many people don't appreciate is that there is a large constituency out there who think that President Trump did a fine job of handling a hectoring journalist.

The President demonstrated real strength by not stooping to respond to the journalist's repeated questions (which had been answered earlier) and by getting back to the job of being President instead of feeding the journalist's ego.

A significant minority (perhaps even a majority) of the electorate would think that one person came out of that exchange looking thin-skinned and unable to do his job properly - and it's not President Trump.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 05:22 AM   #1785
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Has he thought through his proposed changes to the libel laws?

He must realise at some level that his derogatory claims would open him up to such claims?
Actually, I'd think the person who would have the best case against his administration would be Susan Rice, who they clearly abused their security access in order to smear. Basically, they defamed her simply because their base hates her for no reason (except, you know, black *and* female), so she was a good target to use to justify Trump's idiotic tweet.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 05:52 AM   #1786
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't think it was the journalist that made Trump look like a clown.
Agreed.

It must be so frustrating - he was giving Trump every chance to either clarify his position, or maybe backtrack and explain exactly what he had meant by his post, and how his position may have changed pursuant to new information.

But instead, it's like nailing Jello to the wall.

But agree that Trump supporters will see this interview through an entirely different lens.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 06:22 AM   #1787
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
It must be so frustrating - he was giving Trump every chance to either clarify his position, or maybe backtrack and explain exactly what he had meant by his post, and how his position may have changed pursuant to new information.
But that is the problem. Trump doesn't have a "position" so doesn't have the ability to clarify it. He just shot his mouth off like he always does, and has nothing to back it up.

Now, if he were a serious person, it would be an opportunity. But he's not.

Then again, I contend that the interviewer knew that, and that is why he pushed him. It's the same we do with trolls. Ask them questions you know they can't answer, because it shows them to be the blithering idiots they are.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 07:20 AM   #1788
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But that is the problem. Trump doesn't have a "position" so doesn't have the ability to clarify it. He just shot his mouth off like he always does, and has nothing to back it up.

Now, if he were a serious person, it would be an opportunity. But he's not.

Then again, I contend that the interviewer knew that, and that is why he pushed him. It's the same we do with trolls. Ask them questions you know they can't answer, because it shows them to be the blithering idiots they are.

Which is why my first thought on seeing that video was... were that it had been a journo unconcerned with his position who could have just said, on camera, "You Mr. President, are a freaking tool."... and walked out.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 07:48 AM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Which is why my first thought on seeing that video was... were that it had been a journo unconcerned with his position who could have just said, on camera, "You Mr. President, are a freaking tool."... and walked out.
I'm not sure that would accomplish much except set off another cycle of meaningless headlines and outrage, exactly the kind of thing Trump loves to have distracting everybody.

Stephen Colbert seems to have been legitimately irritated by this exchange, judging by his response.

Journos need to keep pressing for a straight answer, reminding him that he has the best memory of... probably... just about anyone, and the highest IQ, everyone on twitter agrees, also hannity, and let the chips fall where they may. Trump will try and gobbledegook his way through them as usual, but the more he talks, the closer he'll get to that fatal trip-up (he said wishfully).
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Old 2nd May 2017, 07:57 AM   #1790
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Journos need to keep pressing for a straight answer, reminding him that he has the best memory of... probably... just about anyone, and the highest IQ, everyone on twitter agrees, also hannity, and let the chips fall where they may. Trump will try and gobbledegook his way through them as usual, but the more he talks, the closer he'll get to that fatal trip-up (he said wishfully).
Unfortunately, unless it's something in furtherance of a criminal conspiracy, there's virtually no legal limit on how stupid the beast can talk, and there seems to be no limit on what its supporters would find acceptable coming out out of its mouth or Twitter feed.
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Last edited by Babbylonian; 2nd May 2017 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 02:38 PM   #1791
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Let me add that I watch Trump's performance in that interview and end up asked my myself, "How would a normal person have reacted?"

If you get my drift.
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Old 4th May 2017, 12:50 AM   #1792
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
You want to encourage the Mexicans to learn about IEDs?
Because that's how you encourage Mexicans to learn about IEDs.

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