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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 27th June 2017, 09:58 PM   #2441
Ivanesca
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
US Supreme Court Justice Harlan Fiske Stone referred to the Nuremberg tribunal as a "sanctimonious fraud" and a "lynching party". Why would such a prominent person make such comments if they were not warranted ? -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11053
Argument from authority. Unless you or Stone can cite examples of the IMT violating legal norms or fabricating evidence to convict the defendants, then this is irrelevant.

Also, Stone was a political opponent of the Cheif US prosecutor Robert Jackson. In other words, he was mudslinging. So? American politicians do that to this day, it doesn't make it true.
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Old 27th June 2017, 10:03 PM   #2442
Ivanesca
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Is Mondial ever going to respond to this?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2056

Nothing he says in this thread is true. Same thing goes for Saggy.
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Old Yesterday, 02:22 AM   #2443
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You accept "they did it too" as a valid defence?
"They did it too" isn't a valid defense. "YOU did it too" is.
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Old Yesterday, 05:48 AM   #2444
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
"They did it too" isn't a valid defense. "YOU did it too" is.
Having worked in the legal system for 21 years I can state that you are incorrect in that regard.
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Old Yesterday, 04:01 PM   #2445
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Originally Posted by Ivanesca View Post
Argument from authority. Unless you or Stone can cite examples of the IMT violating legal norms or fabricating evidence to convict the defendants, then this is irrelevant.

Also, Stone was a political opponent of the Cheif US prosecutor Robert Jackson. In other words, he was mudslinging. So? American politicians do that to this day, it doesn't make it true.
The great architect of the holohoax was Rudolf Hoess, who was tried at Nuremberg. No, wait a minute, he wasn't tried, he did 'testify' however, that is he read an affidavit into the record and testified briefly. He testified as a defense witness. Kafka couldn't have imagined anything this absurd. Gogol, maybe. In his affidavit he admitted to gassing 2.5 million Jews at Auschwitz plus killing an additional .5 million by other means. Here is what he wrote in his book written after the trial ...

" I was treated terribly by the [British] Field Security Police. I was dragged to Heide and, of all places, to the same military barracks from which I had been released eight months before by the British. I do not know what was in the transcript, or what I said, even though I signed it, because they gave me liquor and beat me with a whip. It was too much even for me to bear. The whip was my own. By chance it had found its way into my wife's luggage. My horse had hardly ever been touched by it, much less the prisoners. Somehow one of the interrogators probably thought that I had constantly used it to whip the prisoners."

Visit holohoax101.org for more on Hoess's testimony and other hoax absurdities.
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Last edited by Saggy; Yesterday at 04:02 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM   #2446
Ivanesca
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The great architect of the holohoax was Rudolf Hoess, who was tried at Nuremberg. No, wait a minute, he wasn't tried, he did 'testify' however, that is he read an affidavit into the record and testified briefly. He testified as a defense witness. Kafka couldn't have imagined anything this absurd. Gogol, maybe. In his affidavit he admitted to gassing 2.5 million Jews at Auschwitz plus killing an additional .5 million by other means. Here is what he wrote in his book written after the trial ...

" I was treated terribly by the [British] Field Security Police. I was dragged to Heide and, of all places, to the same military barracks from which I had been released eight months before by the British. I do not know what was in the transcript, or what I said, even though I signed it, because they gave me liquor and beat me with a whip. It was too much even for me to bear. The whip was my own. By chance it had found its way into my wife's luggage. My horse had hardly ever been touched by it, much less the prisoners. Somehow one of the interrogators probably thought that I had constantly used it to whip the prisoners."

Visit holohoax101.org for more on Hoess's testimony and other hoax absurdities.
Please don't lie about Hoess to someone who has actually Read and owns Hoess's memoirs. That was about his initial British captivity. Here's what he says about his experience when he was transferred to the IMT for the trial

Originally Posted by Rudolf Hoess
On the Next Day I was taken by Lorry to Nuremberg, together with a prisoner of war who was brought over from London as a witness in Fritsche's defense. My Imprisonment by the International Military Tribunal was a rest cure compared to what I had been through before
While Hoess did get beaten in British captivity (and he completely deserved it), there's really no indication that it was done with the intent to make him give false testimony at the IMT (he was beaten because he was a mass murderer) simply because there's no indication that his testimony was false and intended to serve the IMT's agenda. Most obviously, the IMT indictment prepared by the Soviets mentioned an Auschwitz Death toll of 4 Million (calculated based on exaggerated assumptions of the Crematoria, rather than the actual number of people sent to Auschwitz). If Hoess was coerced, his testimony would've aligned with this indictment and helped validate it, similar to the Moscow show trials and other cases of actual legal coercion. Instead, Hoess testified that "only" 3 Million had died, based on his own memory and knowledge, rather than going with the Allied indictment. Ergo, no coercion. He also placed the date of the planning of the final solution to 1941 rather than 1942, which had the side effect of shifting the responsibility from Kaltenbrunner to his predecessor, Heydrich. Speaking of Kaltenbrunner, Hoess actually did his job and played along with the former's strategy of downplaying his role in the final solution during his IMT testimony. e.g. He stated that he only met Kaltenbrunner a few times (therefore minimizing Kaltenbrunner's complicity in Hoess' role in Auschwitz) and insisted that most of the orders he got came from Mueller (shifting the criminal responsibility from Kaltenbrunner to Mueller). If Hoess was coerced, then he would've implicated Kaltenbrunner at every opportunity, like in the Moscow Show trials and actual cases of legal coercion. Instead, he was openly able to give testimony that helped defend Kaltenbrunner, like any free defense witness in any free and fair trial around the world. No Banana for Saggy.

Quote:
The great architect of the holohoax was Rudolf Hoess
Said no one ever. And his testimony was not the only piece of evidence reviewed by the IMT regarding the final solution. IIRC the Stroop Report, Hans Frank's diary, documents from the German foreign ministry and statements from various Einsatzgruppen personnel were submitted as well. No one was convicted based solely on Hoess's testimony. Saggy is repeating Ernst Zundel's old strawman that Hoess was the "only" piece of evidence for the Holocaust at the IMT (Not true), which doesn't help his credibility.

Hoess was not tortured, as his testimony at and after the IMT make clear. All Saggy did was prove my point. He lied about the Majdanek Gas chamber having a "window", and now he lies about Rudolf Hoess. No banana for him or Mondial, I'm afraid.

Last edited by Ivanesca; Yesterday at 04:55 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:54 PM   #2447
Ivanesca
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
"They did it too" isn't a valid defense. "YOU did it too" is.
This was actually accepted at the Nuremberg Doctor's trial, showing that it (like most Allied postwar trials) was very fair and defendant friendly. One of the defendants, Kurt Blome, justified his medical experiments by saying that the Anglo Americans did it too, and that his experiments were necessary in wartime. Since Blome was able to give this type of testimony, we can rule out torture or coercion in the Nuremberg Doctor's trial, BTW. He was acquitted, along with several other defendants in that very same trial. Most Deniers talk nonsense about postwar trials without actually reviewing them or what they were about.

Except maybe in Blome and a few others' examples, "You did it too" doesn't really apply. Nothing the Allies did approached the scale of genocide/mass murder perpetrated by the Nazis.
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Old Yesterday, 05:04 PM   #2448
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Originally Posted by Ivanesca View Post
Please don't lie about Hoess to someone who has actually Read and owns Hoess's memoirs. That was about his initial British captivity. Here's what he says about his experience when he was transferred to the IMT for the trial



While Hoess did get beaten in British captivity (and he completely deserved it), there's really no indication that it was done with the intent to make him give false testimony at the IMT (he was beaten because he was a mass murderer) simply because there's no indication that his testimony was false and intended to serve the IMT's agenda. Most obviously, the IMT indictment prepared by the Soviets mentioned an Auschwitz Death toll of 4 Million (calculated based on exaggerated assumptions of the Crematoria, rather than the actual number of people sent to Auschwitz). If Hoess was coerced, his testimony would've aligned with this indictment and helped validate it, similar to the Moscow show trials and other cases of actual legal coercion. Instead, Hoess testified that "only" 3 Million had died, based on his own memory and knowledge, rather than going with the Allied indictment. Ergo, no coercion. He also placed the date of the planning of the final solution to 1941 rather than 1942, which had the side effect of shifting the responsibility from Kaltenbrunner to his predecessor, Heydrich. Speaking of Kaltenbrunner, Hoess actually did his job and played along with the former's strategy of downplaying his role in the final solution during his IMT testimony. e.g. He stated that he only met Kaltenbrunner a few times (therefore minimizing Kaltenbrunner's complicity in Hoess' role in Auschwitz) and insisted that most of the orders he got came from Mueller (shifting the criminal responsibility from Kaltenbrunner to Mueller). If Hoess was coerced, then he would've implicated Kaltenbrunner at every opportunity, like in the Moscow Show trials and actual cases of legal coercion. Instead, he was openly able to give testimony that helped defend Kaltenbrunner, like any free defense witness in any free and fair trial around the world. No Banana for Saggy.



Said no one ever. And his testimony was not the only piece of evidence reviewed by the IMT regarding the final solution. IIRC the Stroop Report, Hans Frank's diary, documents from the German foreign ministry and statements from various Einsatzgruppen personnel were submitted as well. No one was convicted based solely on Hoess's testimony. Saggy is repeating Ernst Zundel's old strawman that Hoess was the "only" piece of evidence for the Holocaust at the IMT (Not true), which doesn't help his credibility.

Hoess was not tortured, as his testimony at and after the IMT make clear. All Saggy did was prove my point. He lied about the Majdanek Gas chamber having a "window", and now he lies about Rudolf Hoess. No banana for him or Mondial, I'm afraid.
I'll just pick one from your pack of idiotic lies ....

"Hoess was the architect of the hoax ...

Said no one ever."

Said Hoess himself in his book. I thought you read it. He says he was directed by Himmler personally to direct the killing the Jews, starting with selection of the method of killing, he sent Eichmann out to scour the countryside looking for the best ways of killing ... (yes this is just pure idiocy) .. and he and Eichmann experimented at Auschwitz before arriving at the gas chamber solution, using the same commercial insecticide they were using for delousing, in the same form from the same cans. Incidentally, Himmler told Hoess to ... 'keep this between the two of us', as Hoess reports.

The holohoax is the biggest, most destructive, most degenerate hoax in history, I don't think Judaism will survive it. I guess the real question is, will any of us survive it?
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Old Yesterday, 05:13 PM   #2449
Ivanesca
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I'll just pick one from your pack of idiotic lies ....

"Hoess was the architect of the hoax ...

Said no one ever."

Said Hoess himself in his book. I thought you read it. He says he was directed by Himmler personally to direct the killing the Jews
In Auschwitz only. All his years of Holocaust Denial, and poor Saggy still cannot grasp that the Holocaust was more than Auschwitz and its Homicidal Gas Chambers, and that Hoess and his command was only a part of it. Yawn

Quote:
The holohoax is the biggest, most destructive, most degenerate hoax in history, I don't think Judaism will survive it.
The biggest, most destructive, degenerate hoax in history is Saggy's rubbish. As for who will allegedly survive, Holocaust research is consistently breaking new strides, while Saggy is stuck repeating the rubbish he spammed six years ago in 2011, or even before that, judging by his repetition of Ernst Zundel's spam. It's pitiful, really.
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Old Yesterday, 05:28 PM   #2450
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The holohoax is the biggest, most destructive, most degenerate hoax in history, I don't think Judaism will survive it.
Who do you think perpetuated this "hoax" and for what purpose?

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Old Yesterday, 05:38 PM   #2451
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Who do you think perpetuated this "hoax" and for what purpose?

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Old Yesterday, 05:42 PM   #2452
Ivanesca
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Who do you think perpetuated this "hoax" and for what purpose?

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It wasn't the Western Allies, that's for sure. Their main priority at the time was opposing the USSR, and to this end, they needed a strong and stable Germany to serve as a bulwark against communism. For this purpose, they loosened the requirements for Denazification and allowed several prominent ex Nazis to serve in the West German government, and also the CIA and NASA (Instead of torturing them to fabricate false evidence to shame Germany). The malmedy trial defendants, Nuremberg Law architect Hans Globke, several German rocket scientists involved in slave labor were examples of this, and Hitler's former chief of staff (who later served as the secretary General of NATO) were examples of this. The Western Allies spent a lot off effort to protect them (instead of torturing or coercing them), i.e. Churchill personally intervened on behalf of Von Manstein, the US and West Germany blackmailed Israel to prevent them from exposing Hans Globke and other Ex Nazis in the Eichmann Trial. No American, British, or French Hoax there, that's for sure.

And it wasn't the USSR either. They were no "friend" of the Jews, and their post-war policy was "Do not Divide the dead", which was to downplay the fact that Jews were singled out by the Nazis for killing in Soviet territory. In all official reports of massacres on Russian soil, references to "Jewish Victims" were all edited to "Peaceful Soviet Citizens", changing the narrative from being a genocide specifically against Jews to Capitalist Fascists killing Communists. This was why the Soviet Indictment refers to the victims of Auschwitz as "Citizens of Various countries" instead of as Jews. Later on, the Soviets would crack down on Jewish attempts to commemorate the Babi Yar massacre as a massacre against Jews, and even forced local Jews to sign a document formally blaming "Zionism" for the Massacre. No Soviet Hoax either.

Both these policies rule out any form of Jewish "influence" or control over either the Western Allies or the USSR, meaning that Saggy's conspiracy theories about US policies are nothing but garbage.

I have told Mondial and EtienneSC about these well known policies several times but never got an answer. The truth must be too painful, since the truth is that there was never a hoax to begin with and the Actual, documented policies of the WWII victors rule out any hoax.
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Old Yesterday, 05:50 PM   #2453
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The holohoax is the biggest, most destructive, most degenerate hoax in history, I don't think Judaism will survive it. I guess the real question is, will any of us survive it?
Hyperbole much?

So far Billions have survived so much so over population is our greatest threat to the planet - most people alive today are little affected by the holocaust, perhaps you could tell us how its effects a farmer in southern India? A shop keeper in Bali? A policeman in Angola or a rancher in Brazil?
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Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM   #2454
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I'll just pick one from your pack of idiotic lies ....

"Hoess was the architect of the hoax ...

Said no one ever."

Said Hoess himself in his book. I thought you read it. He says he was directed by Himmler personally to direct the killing the Jews, starting with selection of the method of killing, he sent Eichmann out to scour the countryside looking for the best ways of killing ... (yes this is just pure idiocy) .. and he and Eichmann experimented at Auschwitz before arriving at the gas chamber solution, using the same commercial insecticide they were using for delousing, in the same form from the same cans. Incidentally, Himmler told Hoess to ... 'keep this between the two of us', as Hoess reports.

The holohoax is the biggest, most destructive, most degenerate hoax in history, I don't think Judaism will survive it. I guess the real question is, will any of us survive it?
You statement - Höss was the architect of the, er, Holocaust - is not supported by your examples, which are all to do with Auschwitz and gas chambers that utilized Zyklon B, by which not even 20% of the Jews murdered by the Nazis perished.

Not quite 30% of the victims were shot to death in open-air executions. Nearly another 30% were asphyxiated in fixed CO chambers. The remainder died in gas vans, in ghetto shootings, by forced starvation and other consequences of privation, and by miscellaneous beatings, hackings, executions, etc.

Time to read up on the Holocaust and leave the hoax behind.
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Old Yesterday, 11:54 PM   #2455
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Having worked in the legal system for 21 years I can state that you are incorrect in that regard.
Argument from authority.
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Old Today, 12:20 AM   #2456
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Argument from authority.
Oh, please, DO elaborate!!
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