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Old 21st January 2019, 02:00 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
A lot of people were baffled by Windows at first, it's really not obvious how to use it when you were seeing it for the first time. Doubly so if no one had told you about double clicking.



This was a Macintosh. First GUI I'd ever seen. First mouse, also.


All my experience had been on mainframes and small ... what did we call them? ... VAX, Northstar, and other microcomputers with CLIs.
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Old 21st January 2019, 02:07 PM   #482
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That (and I'm really reaching back into the ole' memory here) but the very, very early GUIs had more of just a simple "Point and Click" interface (I think in the very early days the industry was split on if mice or light pens was going to become the defacto standard) without any of the dragging/dropping, double clicking stuff. More like just a straight "Touch here" menu system.
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Old 21st January 2019, 02:57 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
This was a Macintosh. First GUI I'd ever seen. First mouse, also.


All my experience had been on mainframes and small ... what did we call them? ... VAX, Northstar, and other microcomputers with CLIs.
"Minicomputer", IIRC. With probably less power than the one in my pocket. Heck, my septic system probably has more processing capability than the old VAX 11/750 I used.
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Old 21st January 2019, 03:39 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"Minicomputer", IIRC. With probably less power than the one in my pocket. Heck, my septic system probably has more processing capability than the old VAX 11/750 I used.



Minicomputer - right! Remember the PDP series? What about the Xerox Sigmas? As for power, I remember when we very proudly announced that we had upgraded the IBM to a whopping 360k of core memory (real core).

I also remember processing probably the same sort of thing your septic system does: GOGI to GIGO to wherever.


Gad, I am old.
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Old 21st January 2019, 04:30 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"Minicomputer", IIRC. With probably less power than the one in my pocket. Heck, my septic system probably has more processing capability than the old VAX 11/750 I used.
It would certainly be faster processing with more RAM (the 750 had 14MB max). But the I/O rates of the old VAX systems still compares very well with most modern computers today, because the technology has not advance a lot since then. Also, most modern PCs tend to use most of their CPU cycles calculating and displaying video stuff (Aero anyone?), not so much doing crunch work. Which is why you could have a hundred users running simultaneously on a 750, but such a load would tend to sink a modern PC.
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Old 21st January 2019, 05:29 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
A lot of people were baffled by Windows at first, it's really not obvious how to use it when you were seeing it for the first time. Doubly so if no one had told you about double clicking.
Yeah, someone definitely said to me "double-click things to open them" that first time I sat down at a Mac. That was about the only instruction I needed.
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Old 21st January 2019, 06:00 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, someone definitely said to me "double-click things to open them" that first time I sat down at a Mac. That was about the only instruction I needed.
I remember reading a story when the Mac was introduced about a test that was done in which number of users were sat down in front of one with no instruction. Nobody at all figured out double-click without being told. It was a workaround due to Steve Jobs's insistence on just one button.
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Old 21st January 2019, 06:05 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I remember reading a story when the Mac was introduced about a test that was done in which number of users were sat down in front of one with no instruction. Nobody at all figured out double-click without being told. It was a workaround due to Steve Jobs's insistence on just one button.
That sounds about right. Like I said, once I'd been told that I could pick pretty much everything else up myself.
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Old 21st January 2019, 06:56 PM   #489
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Did you figure out putting the disk in the trash to eject it?
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Old 21st January 2019, 07:05 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Did you figure out putting the disk in the trash to eject it?
Can't remember. Hey, it was a long time ago. I'm going to say "probably".
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Old 21st January 2019, 07:18 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I remember reading a story when the Mac was introduced about a test that was done in which number of users were sat down in front of one with no instruction. Nobody at all figured out double-click without being told. It was a workaround due to Steve Jobs's insistence on just one button.
IIRC, the double-click mode was already in use on the Xerox WIMP interface at PARC when Bill Gates "copied" it.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 01:45 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Did you figure out putting the disk in the trash to eject it?
I didn't.
I distinctly remember crying out "how do I get the bloody disk back?"
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Old 22nd January 2019, 03:29 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ I will never get over how picky users are about how software "looks" when it functions exactly the same.


Depends what you mean by 'functions exactly the same'.

If you move where all the buttons are, then it isn't functionally the same.

If you move where all the information is, then isn't functionally the same.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 05:31 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Depends what you mean by 'functions exactly the same'.

If you move where all the buttons are, then it isn't functionally the same.

If you move where all the information is, then isn't functionally the same.
And that, children, is the difference between Windows 7, 8 and 10.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 09:43 AM   #495
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I'd be happy with a fast stable version of DOS6.0/Windows 3.1.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 09:49 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Depends what you mean by 'functions exactly the same'.
What I mean is if your job is done completely on a computer and you put "Excellent Computer Skills" on your resume an upgrade from Office 2007 to Office 2013 shouldn't cause you to completely shut down and be unable to function.

I'm not talking about users who had to have one or two new features explained to them. I'm talking about 50-60% of the entire general workforce walked into the office, logged into their machines, brought up their e-mail* and then completely shut down, I mean just literally refused to do any work, because their email "looked different."

And we had sent out a company wide e-mail the previous week explaining exactly what we were doing.

*Some didn't even get that far. They refused to click on the Outlook icon on their desktop because it "looked different."
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Old 22nd January 2019, 10:25 AM   #497
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Admin: I'm trying to remotely remove your software from 10 of our machines.
Me: What error are you getting?
Admin: None.
Me: Please describe what you're doing, what you expect, and what happens instead.
Admin: The 10 machines are powered down. They don't respond.
Me: You cannot remotely access a powered-down machine. It's not running.
Admin: But...
Me: No.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 10:39 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What I mean is if your job is done completely on a computer and you put "Excellent Computer Skills" on your resume an upgrade from Office 2007 to Office 2013 shouldn't cause you to completely shut down and be unable to function.

I'm not talking about users who had to have one or two new features explained to them. I'm talking about 50-60% of the entire general workforce walked into the office, logged into their machines, brought up their e-mail* and then completely shut down, I mean just literally refused to do any work, because their email "looked different."

And we had sent out a company wide e-mail the previous week explaining exactly what we were doing.

*Some didn't even get that far. They refused to click on the Outlook icon on their desktop because it "looked different."
Thanks.

I only ask because I sometimes designers and users mean very different things when they say 'the functionality remains the same'
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Old 22nd January 2019, 10:47 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
And that, children, is the difference between Windows 7, 8 and 10.
Nope. UI changes are generally not functional changes. Providing shared network folders to store and retrieve work product is a functional change. Slightly adjusting how the file explorer is launched is not a functional change.

UI changes can be disorienting and even a little counter-productive, but at this point pretty much everyone has been through two or three versions of an OS by the time they enter the workforce - not counting their phone(s). Normal human beings should be able to say "oh, new UI, give me a couple hours to adjust," and then get back to carrying out their job functions (which haven't actually changed in any significant way).

The problem, I think, is that most people think the UI is the function, and have never thought beyond that point.

Once upon a time, I studied an Intro to Computers textbook that demystified most of what computers are. It explained that computers have four basic components:

1) CPU
2) Disk
3) Memory
4) Input/Output

Since then, I'd say a fifth component has been added:

5) Network

The CPU executes instructions. The Disk stores data while it's not being used. Memory stores data while it's being used. I/O allows the user to interact with the computer. And the Network connects the computer to other resources, including resources that mimic or replace functionality of the computer itself.

There are nuances and exceptions, of course. But it's easier to understand the exceptions once you have the basic concepts. Once you understand that Disk is where you store your files between use, then you can make sense of the exception - you can store files in memory, too. And you can even store working data on Disk instead of in Memory. And you can store your files on the Network, which is really just a disk on a different computer. Etc.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 11:03 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Nope, and there was no-one there to give me one. This was before PCs had hard drives. You needed a boot disk.
My 386 certainly had a hard drive in '86.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 11:06 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That's what I said. You would not have gotten a prompt without someone leaving a boot floppy in it.
Non-System disk or disk error
Replace and press any key when ready.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 11:08 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
Admin: I'm trying to remotely remove your software from 10 of our machines.
Me: What error are you getting?
Admin: None.
Me: Please describe what you're doing, what you expect, and what happens instead.
Admin: The 10 machines are powered down. They don't respond.
Me: You cannot remotely access a powered-down machine. It's not running.
Admin: But...
Me: No.
Boot on LAN. That'll wake the up.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 11:57 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Boot on LAN. That'll wake it up.
True, but for security reasons, this is usually disabled by "wise" PC configurationers.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 11:59 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
True, but for security reasons, this is usually disabled by "wise" PC configurationers.
Most corporates I've worked in use it as standard. It's quite possible to secure it.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 12:07 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
Admin: I'm trying to remotely remove your software from 10 of our machines.
Me: What error are you getting?
Admin: None.
Me: Please describe what you're doing, what you expect, and what happens instead.
Admin: The 10 machines are powered down. They don't respond.
Me: You cannot remotely access a powered-down machine. It's not running.
Admin: But...
Me: No.
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Boot on LAN. That'll wake the up.
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
True, but for security reasons, this is usually disabled by "wise" PC configurationers.
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Most corporates I've worked in use it as standard. It's quite possible to secure it.
Catsmate beat me to it.

Computers sold for corporations generally come with some ILO software on the motherboard, that provides for remote access to the system, including power on/off and even sometimes access to the OS. They can also monitor hardware and firmware to provide for notices of updates, hardware problems, and similar things. We have the system in place at my business.

These are heavily restricted, password protected, encrypted, use certificate security to verify remote access, and run on a segregated, private network with limited access (only certain users/locations can get on that network, and it's not connected to any external network).

Same type of thing for servers, too.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 12:38 PM   #506
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Turning the computers on was one option, certainly. But he wanted to remove software while they were shut down.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 12:46 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
A lot of people were baffled by Windows at first, it's really not obvious how to use it when you were seeing it for the first time. Doubly so if no one had told you about double clicking.
I was absolutely convinced that Windows was just a fad and that nobody would like giving up their command lines.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 01:02 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I was absolutely convinced that Windows was just a fad and that nobody would like giving up their command lines.
Heh.

My oldest brother wanted to be a computer science major when he first was going to college in '84. His counselor talked him out of it because computers were "just a fad".

He majored in math instead. He's still kicking himself.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 01:03 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I was absolutely convinced that Windows was just a fad and that nobody would like giving up their command lines.

No one who matters gave up their command lines.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 01:14 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No one who matters gave up their command lines.
Actually, it's making a big comeback in Windows administration. While batch files and command line has always remained in use, PowerShell is really bringing it back.

Pretty much, if it can be done on Windows, I can automate it via PowerShell. And usually in less than 10 lines of code

I have several automated tasks to generate various reports on all my assigned servers, perform reboots of groups of systems when necessary, collect software inventories, all sorts of stuff. Usually takes about 15 to 30 minutes to write (including look up syntax) and saves hours.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 02:03 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Catsmate beat me to it.

Computers sold for corporations generally come with some ILO software on the motherboard, that provides for remote access to the system, including power on/off and even sometimes access to the OS. They can also monitor hardware and firmware to provide for notices of updates, hardware problems, and similar things. We have the system in place at my business.

These are heavily restricted, password protected, encrypted, use certificate security to verify remote access, and run on a segregated, private network with limited access (only certain users/locations can get on that network, and it's not connected to any external network).

Same type of thing for servers, too.
That is indeed what you have to do to secure boot-on-LAN. But in locations like hospitals and universities which are fairly open to the public and even staff bringing their own gear (not to mention various departments building their own shadow IT operations), boot-on-LAN can be a gateway to unwitting drone and zombie machines, and also undesirable packet-sniffers which are security hazards.

So it's very nice to have boot-on-LAN capability (in the past I used it to quickly bulk-reset classrooms full of training PCs and servers). But if you don't know who is going to do the booting and what they are booting or where it is then it is a problem

ETA: Not that I'm saying no iLO. We use real iLO all the time for servers, on a highly secure network.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 02:07 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No one who matters gave up their command lines.
Command lines are awesome, and so are GUIs.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 02:12 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Actually, it's making a big comeback in Windows administration. While batch files and command line has always remained in use, PowerShell is really bringing it back.

Pretty much, if it can be done on Windows, I can automate it via PowerShell. And usually in less than 10 lines of code

I have several automated tasks to generate various reports on all my assigned servers, perform reboots of groups of systems when necessary, collect software inventories, all sorts of stuff. Usually takes about 15 to 30 minutes to write (including look up syntax) and saves hours.
It really is good. I'd been waiting for ages for the bank to extract the finger and get a SCOM upgrade that would allow me to replace lots of expensive vendor software with direct management custom made for our needs. That went sideways when they let the real SCOM experts go and kept the script kiddies.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 03:02 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That is indeed what you have to do to secure boot-on-LAN. But in locations like hospitals and universities which are fairly open to the public and even staff bringing their own gear (not to mention various departments building their own shadow IT operations), boot-on-LAN can be a gateway to unwitting drone and zombie machines, and also undesirable packet-sniffers which are security hazards.

So it's very nice to have boot-on-LAN capability (in the past I used it to quickly bulk-reset classrooms full of training PCs and servers). But if you don't know who is going to do the booting and what they are booting or where it is then it is a problem

ETA: Not that I'm saying no iLO. We use real iLO all the time for servers, on a highly secure network.
Well, the iLO network is what has boot-on-LAN capability, and that's a separate network from the public one, with certificate-based access and encryption controls. SO even if someone just walked in and plugged up whatever, it's only going to be on the regular network, not the iLO network. If that makes sense

Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
It really is good. I'd been waiting for ages for the bank to extract the finger and get a SCOM upgrade that would allow me to replace lots of expensive vendor software with direct management custom made for our needs. That went sideways when they let the real SCOM experts go and kept the script kiddies.
Yeah, I've written custom monitors for our SCOM system. It's not that difficult, and the ability to customize exactly what you want is great
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Old 22nd January 2019, 04:42 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Well, the iLO network is what has boot-on-LAN capability, and that's a separate network from the public one, with certificate-based access and encryption controls. SO even if someone just walked in and plugged up whatever, it's only going to be on the regular network, not the iLO network. If that makes sense
It certainly does. So any publicly-connected device can be booted (and thus accessed) from...anywhere, really. And what is running on that device? What is it doing with my network? FIIK!

ETA: Started life as a programmer decades ago, so I have no idea how many millions of lines of code I've written since then. Including all sorts of scripts on a variety of platforms.
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 22nd January 2019 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 05:47 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Command lines are awesome, and so are GUIs.
I've never had an eye for programming. I can follow a script to use a command line but I've never got the hang of actually writing code. I love my GUI.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:10 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It certainly does. So any publicly-connected device can be booted (and thus accessed) from...anywhere, really. And what is running on that device? What is it doing with my network? FIIK!

ETA: Started life as a programmer decades ago, so I have no idea how many millions of lines of code I've written since then. Including all sorts of scripts on a variety of platforms.
Apparently I'm not explaining very well. It's two separate networks. You can't just plug in to the iLO net (it's protected, assigned ports, etc, and the firewalls prevent any external access to it except from specific management locations). You can plug into the guest net (but doesn't provide access to the iLO net or our internal domain, only internet access).

No, you can't access and boot a device from anywhere (well, technically, we can use our remote access tools to access the VM Server and boot something...but that's not the same thing).
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:27 AM   #518
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I'm actually one of the few IT people I know that thinks the current balance of GUI for most all user interface function and GUI/Command Line for most system admin functions have actually struck a pretty fair balance.

I cut my teeth on commands lines but I don't want to go back to them for everything.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:45 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm actually one of the few IT people I know that thinks the current balance of GUI for most all user interface function and GUI/Command Line for most system admin functions have actually struck a pretty fair balance.

I cut my teeth on commands lines but I don't want to go back to them for everything.
I remember the joy of an interactive command line, on a VDU (as we called them in those days), being such an improvement on using paper tape, punched cards or a teletype. Some things are more easily done with a GUI, but I'll usually have at least one CLI window open somewhere.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 04:38 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm actually one of the few IT people I know that thinks the current balance of GUI for most all user interface function and GUI/Command Line for most system admin functions have actually struck a pretty fair balance.

I cut my teeth on commands lines but I don't want to go back to them for everything.
I completely agree. Those with the chops can do amazing things with a command line. For most functions, the GUI serves the rest of us extremely well.

More and more admin functions are being done through a browser now, actually. I do pretty much everything in a browser except those few functions I still need to use AD for.
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