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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 22nd November 2019, 01:35 PM   #1601
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A most disturbing story.

How many of these kind of stories does Francis get to hear about? If he doesn't hear about it why not? It would not exonerate him if he was ignorant, because he should make it his business to be informed.
As head of the RCC, the buck most definitely stops with him. However it does open an interesting line of interest. Exactly how much of the information is passed up to him by the Curia and how exactly is it spun?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 06:25 PM   #1602
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
As head of the RCC, the buck most definitely stops with him. However it does open an interesting line of interest. Exactly how much of the information is passed up to him by the Curia and how exactly is it spun?
There is more than one path to the info. It seems to be freely available right here. If the pope doesn’t know it’s because he doesn’t want to. But he does know.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 06:50 PM   #1603
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
As head of the RCC, the buck most definitely stops with him. However it does open an interesting line of interest. Exactly how much of the information is passed up to him by the Curia and how exactly is it spun?
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
There is more than one path to the info. It seems to be freely available right here. If the pope doesn’t know it’s because he doesn’t want to. But he does know.
Is he allowed internet access? Does he know he isn't allowed internet access? Does he know what the internet is? Men (it's always men, somehow) in high places tend to be highly insulated from what's going on.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 07:02 PM   #1604
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Is he allowed internet access? Does he know he isn't allowed internet access? Does he know what the internet is? Men (it's always men, somehow) in high places tend to be highly insulated from what's going on.
All good points. Maybe I assumed too much.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 02:11 PM   #1605
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Is he allowed internet access? Does he know he isn't allowed internet access? Does he know what the internet is? Men (it's always men, somehow) in high places tend to be highly insulated from what's going on.
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
All good points. Maybe I assumed too much.

Catholics see this guy as God's right hand man on Earth. If he doesn't know what's going on the God doesn't. His omniscience is in question. Mind you this is something we should be suspecting already, given he needs people to pray to him to let him know what's going on.
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Old 24th November 2019, 02:53 PM   #1606
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
As head of the RCC, the buck most definitely stops with him. However it does open an interesting line of interest. Exactly how much of the information is passed up to him by the Curia and how exactly is it spun?
Does the the Curia even have a mechanism to track pedophile priests once identified and convicted? They shouldn't need CNN to tell them a convicted pedophile is working somewhere. He certainly should have been identified before a ceremony with the Pope. Every RCC affiliated organization should be able to run a name in a database.
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Old 24th November 2019, 07:47 PM   #1607
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Now we have Francis having something to say about nuclear weapons. Could this be a diversionary tactic or am I being too cynical?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...-zero/11733310


Quote:
Pope Francis has urged for the abolition of nuclear weapons, saying their mere possession is perverse and indefensible.

.........

In a highly symbolic visit to the Japanese city devastated by the nuclear attack, the Pope said nuclear weapons were "not the answer" to a desire for security, peace and stability.

........

This marked a break with past pontiffs — in a 1982 UN speech, Pope John Paul II had described nuclear deterrence as a necessary evil.

Be nice to have a list of issues that successive popes have disagreed on.
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Old 24th November 2019, 08:38 PM   #1608
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Does the the Curia even have a mechanism to track pedophile priests once identified and convicted? They shouldn't need CNN to tell them a convicted pedophile is working somewhere. He certainly should have been identified before a ceremony with the Pope. Every RCC affiliated organization should be able to run a name in a database.
It's difficult to answer any of that. The RCC is not exactly "givish" with information about it's internal machinations.
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Old 30th November 2019, 01:51 PM   #1609
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Now the Catholic Church in India finds it way into the news:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-...lergy/11724262

Quote:
A bishop in the state of Kerala has been accused of raping a nun and other nuns have come forward with similar complaints.
But they say the Church hierarchy is in denial and they have faced reprisals for speaking out.
Bishop Franco Mulakkal worked in the state of Kerala, India's Catholic heartland.

Church hierarchy in denial? .......... Surely not!
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Old 1st December 2019, 05:01 AM   #1610
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/30/us/ga...ion/index.html

In the US, the church is denying communion to same-sex couples. I wonder how many abuser priests got communion. It's good that they have priorities.
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Old 1st December 2019, 02:26 PM   #1611
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/30/us/ga...ion/index.html

In the US, the church is denying communion to same-sex couples. I wonder how many abuser priests got communion. It's good that they have priorities.

Haven't come across any scripture in the Bible condemning adults having sex with children so God is probably cool with the idea. This is most likely viewed as a modern day obsession that should not be taken seriously. Mind you it's only men having sex with men that God frowns upon. Women with women doesn't get a mention so He may not have known about this happening. Just as well the good priest has his finger on the pulse though.*


* Doesn't come over in the video very well however. I think perhaps the RCC has had to lower its standards in recent years due to a lack of applicants.
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Old 10th December 2019, 12:34 PM   #1612
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CNN did a really good investigative piece on the Salesians of Don Bosco. It's a fallow up to their story about the convicted sex offender from the Salesians who worked for Caritas in Central African Republic. This piece focused on their schools in California. If you think the secular side of the church is bad, (priests, bishops, parishes) the holy orders are just awful.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019...on-bosco-intl/

Here's the link. They did a very through job, going back decades.
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Old 13th December 2019, 09:32 AM   #1613
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https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/11/vati...port-says.html

Quote:
As little as 10% of donations by Roman Catholics that are specifically advertised as helping the poor and suffering actually go toward charitable work, The Wall Street Journal reports.
About two-thirds of the rest of the $55 million in annual donations for Pope Francis’ charitable appeal, known as Peter’s Pence, is used to fill the Vatican’s administrative budget deficit, the report says.
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Old 13th December 2019, 11:27 AM   #1614
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Old 13th December 2019, 11:31 AM   #1615
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Catholics don't care. They worship the dude and think he deserves every penny he can scam,
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Old 13th December 2019, 12:04 PM   #1616
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
"Peter's Pence" was always considered a Vatican specify levy, rather than a charitable fund.
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Old 13th December 2019, 02:13 PM   #1617
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
"Peter's Pence" was always considered a Vatican specify levy, rather than a charitable fund.

Having read the article it would seem definitions of this fund and the opinions of others are in contrast to this.
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Old 14th December 2019, 10:53 AM   #1618
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Having read the article it would seem definitions of this fund and the opinions of others are in contrast to this.
Since we are neighbours, I can confirm what catsmate says. What the article claims is irrelevant to how it is presented on the front line.
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Old 17th December 2019, 12:33 PM   #1619
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
"Peter's Pence" was always considered a Vatican specify levy, rather than a charitable fund.
Peter's Pence was historically considered more of a tithe that directly goes to the Vatican without any stipulation that it would be spent on acts of charity. The historical Peter's Pence ended after the English Reformation (the Brits after all started the practice, hence its name) and its modern incarnation began with Pio Nono who reinstated it as a means of showing solidarity with the "intentions of His Holiness the Pope". By the 20th century these "intentions" were well understood to mean acts of charity.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Since we are neighbours, I can confirm what catsmate says. What the article claims is irrelevant to how it is presented on the front line.
This is how it's being presented on the front line:

From the Vatican:

Quote:
To donate to Peter's Pence is to participate in the common mission of mercy. A day for the works of charity.

[...]

Through donations to Peter's Pence, all people can support the activities of the Holy See and its initiatives to express solidarity with those most in need, to whom the Church has always given her attention and care. With your donation, the whole Church can continue – in the words of Pope Francis on 9 May 2016 – “to walk to search for, visit, meet, listen to, share with and stop at those most in need”.
And:

Quote:
Peter’s Pence is the name given to the financial support offered by the faithful to the Holy Father as a sign of their sharing in the concern of the Successor of Peter for the many different needs of the Universal Church and for the relief of those most in need.
And:

Quote:
Peter’s Pence’ is the most characteristic expression of the participation of all the faithful in the Bishop of Rome’s charitable initiatives in favour of the universal Church. The gesture has not only a practical value, but also a strong symbolic one, as a sign of communion with the Pope and attention to the needs of one’s brothers; and therefore your service possesses a refined ecclesial character”. (Address to the Members of the St Peter Circle, 25 February 2006).

The ecclesial value of this gesture becomes evident when one considers how charitable initiatives are connatural to the Church, as the Pope stated in his first Encyclical Deus caritas est (25 December 2005):

“The Church can never be exempted from practising charity as an organized activity of believers and, on the other hand, there will never be a situation where the charity of each individual Christian is unnecessary, because in addition to justice man needs, and will always need, love”
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops characterizes Peter's Pence as such:

Quote:
Pope Francis calls each of us to witness to charity and to show God's mercy to one another. He encourages us to "open our eyes and see the misery of the world, the wounds of our brothers and sisters who are denied their dignity, and let us recognize that we are compelled to heed their cry for help!" (Misericordiae Vultus [MV], no. 15).

The Peter's Pence Collection unites us in solidarity to the Holy See and its works of charity to those in need. Your generosity allows the Pope to respond to our suffering brothers and sisters.

The purpose of the Peter's Pence Collection is to provide the Holy Father with the financial means to respond to those who are suffering as a result of war, oppression, natural disaster, and disease.
So I can't really fault people for coming to the reasonable conclusion that donating to Peter's Pence is donating to charity and not to the lavish lifestyles of corrupt Curial Cardinals, to irresponsible real estate investments, money laundering, and/or settling the Vatican's debts. After all, I don't see any of that mentioned here where the Holy See toots her own horn in the magnificent acts of charity she commits with the funds of Peter's Pence..
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Old 17th December 2019, 02:09 PM   #1620
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Some developments in papal directions in the matters of sexual abuse:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-...cases/11808328


I find some of the wording in the article somewhat ambiguous and present the following as an example:

Quote:
While the Vatican has long tried to insist this was not the case, it also never mandated that bishops and religious superiors report sex crimes to police, and in the past has encouraged bishops not to do so.
According to the new instruction, which was signed by the Vatican secretary of state but authorised by the Pope, the Vatican still doesn't mandate reporting the crimes to police, saying religious superiors are obliged to do so where civil reporting laws require it.
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Old 17th December 2019, 03:52 PM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Some developments in papal directions in the matters of sexual abuse:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-...cases/11808328


I find some of the wording in the article somewhat ambiguous and present the following as an example:

Quote:
While the Vatican has long tried to insist this was not the case, it also never mandated that bishops and religious superiors report sex crimes to police, and in the past has encouraged bishops not to do so.
According to the new instruction, which was signed by the Vatican secretary of state but authorised by the Pope, the Vatican still doesn't mandate reporting the crimes to police, saying religious superiors are obliged to do so where civil reporting laws require it.
That is not new. The RCC has always considered Canon Law to trump civil law. It's just how they rock.

The simple fact that civil authority is no saying "no thanks" merely leaves them scrambling on the back foot. The message is still the same.
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Old 18th December 2019, 02:16 PM   #1622
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That is not new. The RCC has always considered Canon Law to trump civil law. It's just how they rock.

The simple fact that civil authority is no saying "no thanks" merely leaves them scrambling on the back foot. The message is still the same.

So it would seem. This:

"the Vatican still doesn't mandate reporting the crimes to police, saying religious superiors are obliged to do so where civil reporting laws require it."

Sounds like it came out of 1984. Classic double speak.
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Old 23rd December 2019, 12:39 PM   #1623
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So it just gets worse and worse:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-...aciel/11824296

Quote:
A report from the Legionaries of Christ — a Catholic order championed by Pope John Paul II — has found that 175 minors were abused by priests since its inception, a third of whom were abused by notorious founder Marcel Maciel.
You have to wonder about the judgement of John Paul who championed this order.

Quote:
In 2010, the order acknowledged Maciel had fathered a child with a long-term partner and, at the time of the admission, a Mexican attorney alleged that Maciel fathered up to six children, after being asked to litigate on behalf of three of them.
It was later revealed Maciel abused the children he had fathered while he was publicly feted by Vatican leadership and Catholic conservatives.
So Maciel even abused the children he fathered. Six children fathered by this guy. I guess we can assume no birth control methods were used, and we should give him credit for being a good Catholic in this anyway.
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Old 26th December 2019, 10:47 AM   #1624
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From the Wikipedia article about Maciel:
Quote:
Throughout most of his career, he was respected within the church as "the greatest fundraiser of the modern Roman Catholic church"
No wonder he could get away with so much.
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Old 26th December 2019, 11:18 AM   #1625
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Some developments in papal directions in the matters of sexual abuse:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-...cases/11808328


I find some of the wording in the article somewhat ambiguous and present the following as an example:
And this problem will never get better until the RCC turns it over to the people who are trained and empowered to deal with it properly. They'd call the police if the poor boxes got broken into but not when the janitor finds a priest raping a boy in the locker room.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 02:29 PM   #1626
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On a lighter note we now see the Pope looking somewhat grumpy after a woman grabs his hand. It must be a strain to maintain that benevolent smile and countenance continuously I suppose.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...s-him/11836576
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Old 13th January 2020, 01:45 PM   #1627
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Further rumblings in the church as the former Pope Benedict has his say on the celibacy issue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...rules/11864748

Quote:
Conservative and traditionalist Catholics nostalgic for Pope Benedict's orthodoxy are already deeply opposed to Pope Francis, with some even considering Pope Benedict's resignation illegitimate.

Where will this lead I wonder? Will this lead to a two Pope situation?

It would not be the first time of course.
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Old 13th January 2020, 02:04 PM   #1628
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Further rumblings in the church as the former Pope Benedict has his say on the celibacy issue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...rules/11864748




Where will this lead I wonder? Will this lead to a two Pope situation?

It would not be the first time of course.
Dunno about you, but I find it amusing.

Two popes enter the ring of theology. Only one can leave. Subscribe now for the battle of the popes.

(Only two tickets per soul. Offer not valid until after the rapture, offer not valid for the losers who will be in hell anyway)
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:47 PM   #1629
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Dunno about you, but I find it amusing.

Two popes enter the ring of theology. Only one can leave. Subscribe now for the battle of the popes.

(Only two tickets per soul. Offer not valid until after the rapture, offer not valid for the losers who will be in hell anyway)
That'd be awesome. They can fight it out with croziers. First to knock the mitre off the other guy's head wins.
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:31 PM   #1630
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Dunno about you, but I find it amusing.

Two popes enter the ring of theology. Only one can leave. Subscribe now for the battle of the popes.

(Only two tickets per soul. Offer not valid until after the rapture, offer not valid for the losers who will be in hell anyway)
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
That'd be awesome. They can fight it out with croziers. First to knock the mitre off the other guy's head wins.

I can see you guys are not taking this seriously.

Where can I get a ticket?
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Old 13th January 2020, 06:33 PM   #1631
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There are already several competing popes. Pope Alexander IX was elected after Pope Innocent XIV resigned on 29 May 2007. There's also Pope Michael, who was elected on 16 July 1990 by a conclave of six people, and Pope Linus II who was elected in 1994 and resides in Hertfordshire. And that doesn't count any of the many self-declared popes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclavism

Of these popes, only Francis is recognised by a majority of Catholics.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:00 PM   #1632
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Of these popes, only Francis is recognised by a majority of Catholics.
And we all know what sheeple THEY are!
Let's just let Frankie and Palpatine fight it out first, then the other challengers can enter the ring.
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:22 PM   #1633
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And it turns out the sanctity of confession isn't all that.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...iers-lfg7v9pq0

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/01/1...-military-ban/

Quote:
it emerged that Catholic chaplains in the armed forces broke the confidentiality of confession to “out” gay and lesbian personnel to the authorities.
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:39 PM   #1634
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That's a major problem in canon law. I hope the church takes it seriously.
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:31 PM   #1635
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I spent most of my life until recently in Protestant parts of the USA, never really hearing much about or from the Catholic world. All of the stories I ever ran into about Christians doing crazy Christian stuff involved Protestants, so I figured Catholism, which I knew of only as a vague nebulous concept that's out there somewhere, must be the version of Christianity that doesn't act like that.

Then I moved to western New York late last summer. I was wrong. The Catholics are even weirder in some ways. There are radio stations here that play Catholic programming all day (which by itself is a phenomenon I don't recall even in Missouri or rural Florida, but maybe I just wasn't aware of them then), and I often listen to them while driving just for the weirdness; it's like getting to eavesdrop on aliens.

Compared to Protestants in places I've lived in before, the audience the Catholic radio shows must be meant for seems even more obsessed with self-hatred, abortion, and paranoid delusions about "the world" coming to get them by doing awful ungodly things like... existing... but I've only heard one of them go on a Creationist rant once in about a half-year now. And they definitely ask a lot more often for donations to fight bad stuff in foreign countries, particularly human trafficking, and interview the people who are apparently going out there and actually doing the work with that money, which all feels like they at least expect their audience to find this kind of thing more seriously, personally compelling & motivating instead of just vague ideas to say are vaguely regrettable and not think them about too much.

The most interesting shows, and to be fair the most common, are when they just give speeches on certain theological points like interpreting the themes of Bible stories or giving apologetic arguments in response to things they figure their audience must hear from the outside.

But by far the biggest difference is the built-in fixation on official authority and repetitious ceremonialism, and this comes out in the radio shows that sound like actually going to church, apparently on any day of the week at any time of the day, as if their audience just can't get enough of it from physically going in on Sunday mornings alone. And the form that these ceremonies take is like an even longer, slower, and duller version of the Lutheran ones I remember waiting for the end of from my childhood. I remember our preacher doing a few lines at a time in that chanting style where they only use a few notes, with the congregation answering back just one line for each of his, and that part would be over in a minute. But these Catholic radio back-&-forth chanting sessions just drag on & on & on. They must have some reason to think that this is what their target audience wants to hear!

One time I thought at first that I'd just turned on the radio in the middle of a Gregorian-style concert, but the lyrics turned out to be like the stuff congregations say in plain English during these chanting sessions in church, and sometimes they'd stop and the preacher would do his solo part for a bit before they'd resume. So they had gone a step beyond just recording a church "service", by hiring professional singers to put on a show playing the role of the congregation, pretending to be going to church just so it could be recorded and apparently played back for people who wish they were at church when they aren't at church (or wish the people at their churches could sing that well).

Then there are the recitations that are spoken instead of sung or chanted, usually in back-&-forth form like the chants, just not sung. But they're spoken in that flat robotic deadpan expressionless mumblemutter you get when people don't really want to be doing this. And again, like the chanting, they just go on & on & on, repeating with little or no change, roughly like this:

Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord
Man: For the sake of His bloody sacrifice
Woman: Have mercy on us, Oh Lord

This is what people actually tune in to listen to? How? Why? Is it like an auditory blanket for people who heard this kind of stuff so much as kids that it ended up a familiar background, like wind, waves, nocturnal animal sounds, or "white noise"?

And the strangest version of THAT is when, instead of two adults going back & forth or one adult going back & forth with a group that sounds like 3-5 adults together, one half of it is done by kids. It's impossible to hear kids doing this and not picture them slowly floating above a corn field with their eyes glowing. It just reeks of creepy spooky brainwashing & oppression.
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:14 PM   #1636
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
... And they definitely ask a lot more often for donations to fight bad stuff in foreign countries, particularly human trafficking, and interview the people who are apparently going out there and actually doing the work with that money, which all feels like they at least expect their audience to find this kind of thing more seriously, personally compelling & motivating instead of just vague ideas to say are vaguely regrettable and not think them about too much.
Oh yes, Catholics take this kind of stuff very seriously. Caritas is one of the largest international aid organisations in the world. Catholicism, after all, is "faith and works", as opposed to Protestantism which is faith alone. It was one of several beefs that Martin Luther had (the main one of which was of course indulgences).
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Old 14th January 2020, 06:05 AM   #1637
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are already several competing popes. Pope Alexander IX was elected after Pope Innocent XIV resigned on 29 May 2007. There's also Pope Michael, who was elected on 16 July 1990 by a conclave of six people, and Pope Linus II who was elected in 1994 and resides in Hertfordshire. And that doesn't count any of the many self-declared popes.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclavism



Of these popes, only Francis is recognised by a majority of Catholics.
There is also the Coptic Pope, the RCers Pope just has a better PR team.
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Old 14th January 2020, 06:39 AM   #1638
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh yes, Catholics take this kind of stuff very seriously. Caritas is one of the largest international aid organisations in the world. Catholicism, after all, is "faith and works", as opposed to Protestantism which is faith alone. It was one of several beefs that Martin Luther had (the main one of which was of course indulgences).
Have to be careful with your broadstroke that's not the real difference, many Protestant denominations also hold practicing what you preach is important. The major difference has always been that Protestantism holds that the only source of faith is the bible itself, the Roman Catholics hold the church itself is the holder of the faith.

Plus of course the RC church believes in the bread and wine actually being christ's blood and flesh.
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Old 14th January 2020, 12:54 PM   #1639
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh yes, Catholics take this kind of stuff very seriously. Caritas is one of the largest international aid organisations in the world. Catholicism, after all, is "faith and works", as opposed to Protestantism which is faith alone. It was one of several beefs that Martin Luther had (the main one of which was of course indulgences).
Yea but they think Mother Teresa was actually providing health care so their standards of what constitutes good work are rather questionable. I mean clearly medical care isn't part of it. And for feeding the hungry, well only Christians need apply.
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Old 14th January 2020, 02:19 PM   #1640
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have to be careful with your broadstroke that's not the real difference, many Protestant denominations also hold practicing what you preach is important. The major difference has always been that Protestantism holds that the only source of faith is the bible itself, the Roman Catholics hold the church itself is the holder of the faith.

Plus of course the RC church believes in the bread and wine actually being christ's blood and flesh.

Well I suppose the idea that the Catholic Church itself is the holder of the faith is inevitable, given the assumption that the rightful successor of Peter has the top job. He can then loose and bind stuff, that gets the nod even in Heaven as well as here, so cannot be constrained by the Bible.

It is naughty of you Darat to write bible instead of Bible and christ's instead of Christ's. This will earn you black marks in a ledger somewhere.
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