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#361 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,129
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#362 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,155
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__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#363 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#364 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 6,629
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#365 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
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Worth watching live now. The House has GOT this. I found their pre-impeachment letter thingie flawless (personally.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHcV...ature=emb_logo It's also on CSPAN now. |
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"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#366 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24,608
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Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting. |
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#367 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,057
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You make the common mistake of thinking that the facts matter.
It's like a scientist debating a creationist or an anti-vaxxer. They think that they have the advantage because the facts are on their side. They don't. What they discover is that the other side just goes up and spews a pile of lies to overwhelm their supposed facts, and it buries the discussion. |
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"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets |
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#368 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,034
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#369 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24,608
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We're only at the Ranking Member's opening statement and if only reinforces my opinion that I ******* hate Republican politicians.
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Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting. |
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#370 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#371 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#372 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#373 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,937
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And all of that would be great if this was a traditional trial where you can be "technically correct" and had some higher authority to make the other side acquiesce.
I don't doubt that any Legal Scholar with more then 3 neurons in his skull could prove that Trump has done things that meet "the definition" of impeachable offense. That's on the level of proving there's at least one water molecule in the Pacific. I'm sure you can do it. But the "technically speaking" part that is being missed is technically... impeachable is whatever Congress says it is. If Congress votes that buttering your toast is an impeachable offense it is, if they vote that selling us to Ottoman Empire is not, it isn't. That's it. That's the highest level of "technically speaking." A legal scholar can't tell Congress they are wrong about what is impeachable because what is impeachable is by definition whatever Congress says it is. That's why the language in the Constitution was so vague and didn't spell out line by line was offenses counted. That's a feature, not a bug. When a prosecutor "proves" (in the legal sense) that an event occurred the defense can't just go "Nope, don't care." The judge, the jury, the greater and broader legal system, a higher court, something, will override it and make the defense believe it, or at least make the defense act as if they believe it. In this case, that's exactly what can and will happen. The "Prosecutor" is going to prove their case, and the "Defense" isn't going to care. Note I didn't say the defense is going to say they didn't prove it, I said the defense is not going to care. And we're already at the top level. There's no higher court or process to appeal to. There's no Ref to stop this fight after the Republicans lowblow you again while you lay on mat going "But the rule book says you can't do that..." Proving something and convincing someone of something are two very different thinks. The Dems are wasting all our times proving WE ALL ALREADY KNOW. Yes a child with a sliderule could prove Trump has committed impeachable offenses. But the same child can prove Brett Hart didn't tap to Shawn Michaels in Montreal but Shawn left with the Belt. There is no force in the machinations of everything going on right now that is going to hold the Republicans to anything the Democrats prove no matter how well they prove it. Stop proving, start convincing. If you can't do either, give up, and start the revolution. Either way stop wasting our time. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#374 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,789
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Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski |
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#375 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,714
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The problem with emphasizing the political nature of impeachment is that it suggests the trial in the Senate is merely political. If these issues are all merely political, then a refusal to remove the president legitimately comes down to political considerations. It's bad for the Republican party (at least in the short term) to remove Trump from office, and so they have good reason not to.
I don't think this is a merely political act. I think that Trump's behavior is legitimately bad for the nation whether it's good for the GOP or not. Anyone who refuses to remove Trump because it's politically inexpedient to do so is failing in his duty. Now, I may be interpreting the word "political" differently than you, but if so, I'm not sure how you mean it. |
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#376 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,388
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I read a Fox article saying the Republicans witness is going to blast the impeachment. That's all the right needs to bombard their base and the base will never think of it again.
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"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
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#377 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,057
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__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets |
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#378 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,038
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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#379 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,937
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Enough, I hope.
The only chance we've got is that this mythical neutral party of very, very quiet people turns out to actually exist. Everyone who's already been "in the discussion" is not changing their mind, I think that's the one thing that has been proved to all of our satisfaction by this circus. For the first time in my life I hope the "Silent Majority" concept has some real truth to it. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#380 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#381 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,937
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__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#382 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#383 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,496
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It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#384 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,714
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Haven't watched much, but I don't like the lawyer who is leading the questioning right now.
"Did you write such-and-such?" "Yes, but there was a significant caveat..." "It was a yes or no question. Did you write such and such?" (Not perfect quotes, obviously.) I would've preferred that Turley could include his caveat. Else, the quoted passage may well have been very misleading. |
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#385 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,447
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The only dissenting Constitutional expert of four, Prof. Turley, stated that there was a "paucity of evidence" supporting Trump having committed an impeachable offense.
I honestly don't know what more evidence he would require than what we already have. |
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#386 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,849
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Notice how the Republican is practically shouting. He's outraged! Yep, don't want anyone miss it.
![]() Nadler is a tad disappointing compared to Schiff when it comes to rebutting crap. I'm waiting for people to really cross-examine Turley. I have a lot of things he should be asked that so far, no one is asking. |
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#387 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#388 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,849
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And what adds to my annoyance with that BS, he made the same statements long before the witnesses testified in the hearings.
He also repeated the GOP line that Trump hasn't been able to defend himself. Turley seemed to think the SCOTUS needs to answer the subpoena refusals before one could call it obstruction. But it's ridiculous because Trump just moves the goal post again and again. What does Turley say about that? Nothing. The GOP questioner is bringing up Biden's actions with Ukraine aid but left out the personal gain and attacking one's political rival. The GOP members keep repeating the talking point the public is tired of this yada yada. No they aren't. |
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#389 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,385
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The Judiciary Committee has always been a clown-show because it is so public compared to the Intelligence Committee.
"Nothing new" is the best Republicans can hope for, and they might get it. |
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Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam. |
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#390 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,371
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In the proceeding, Karlan's "Barron" comment about kings was funny but unwise.
Hay will be made. These evil people are dragging in an innocent child! |
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump |
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#391 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,279
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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#392 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,849
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Gohmert's going with the 'Ukraine did it' CT and claims there are witnesses to that effect that weren't called.
They are also claiming Trump was interested in corruption. The Democrats have not done themselves any favors ignoring a rebuttal of that Trump lie. If it continues it becomes an alt-fact, probably already is. |
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#393 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,937
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Even a year ago I would have argued that even the Republicans wouldn't fully buy into a full on conspiracy theory just to kneejerk defend their tribe.
Now it's a near certainty. They are actually going to argue some sort of shadowy deep state is out to get Trump. |
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#394 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#395 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#396 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,129
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#397 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,937
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I don't know. This is like the political singularity, we can't see what's beyond it.
If "Post-Truth" as a concept gets fully established and it works or even seems to... it might be the new norm. I want to think that simple intelligence to base concept that "facts exist" will swing us back to center sooner or later but "There are this things called facts and what they are tends to matter" is a point I keep having to defend a lot in a lot of different contexts more and more... *shrugs.* Again this is what skeptics have been dealing with forever but now it's going to apply to literally everything. Full scale, across the board reality denial. If this goes worse case scenario reality is going to become functionally identical to a Jabba or Figbooter thread. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#398 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,385
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There is much more at stake for Republicans than the Trump Presidency: it is their entire ideology that Federal Government cannot work and must therefore be defanged, defunded and deregulated.
If Democrats manage to make the system work, if they can actually pull off an Impeachment supported by evidence, this would prove that only Republicans are incapable of governing. |
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Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam. |
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#399 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,849
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#400 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,155
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__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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