[Continuation] House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2 - Page 3

theprestige · 28th November 2019, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lurch

Probably addressed before I scrolled further...

The point is to show Graham's rank hypocrisy.

It hasn't really been addressed. If the point is as you say, then it really needs to be addressed directly, by PhantomWolf. Showing Graham's hypocrisy in no way answers the question I was asking.

Either PW thought he was answering my question, in which case, what the hell? Or he thought he wasn't answering my question. In which case, what the hell?

WilliamSeger · 28th November 2019, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

It hasn't really been addressed. If the point is as you say, then it really needs to be addressed directly, by PhantomWolf. Showing Graham's hypocrisy in no way answers the question I was asking.

Either PW thought he was answering my question, in which case, what the hell? Or he thought he wasn't answering my question. In which case, what the hell?

Graham makes a strong case for why the American people need to be able to believe what the president says -- which is to say, a strong case for an additional Article of Impeachment against Trump.

acbytesla · 28th November 2019, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

It hasn't really been addressed. If the point is as you say, then it really needs to be addressed directly, by PhantomWolf. Showing Graham's hypocrisy in no way answers the question I was asking.

Either PW thought he was answering my question, in which case, what the hell? Or he thought he wasn't answering my question. In which case, what the hell?

Of course it was. Just because your fingers are in your ears doesn't mean it wasn't addressed. And it was addressed by Graham twenty years ago in that video. That Graham is now a hypocrite doesn't make what he said twenty years ago any less valid.

Graham explains why impeachment is necessary. Granted it didn't really apply to a blowjob or even lying about a blowjob. But it does apply to corruption, bribery, abuse of power and obstruction of justice.

PhantomWolf · 28th November 2019, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

yt;dw

funny thing, Graham said the same thing about the Transcripts he demanded were released, well tl;dr, but close enough.

My point was that yes he did answer your question, in that impeachment is about cleansing the office when a official abuses it, and that is why it should be done.

Funnily enough, in 1999 when they were all for impeaching Clinton, Republicans were all saying the right things about the need for impeachment and what it was. Now they are all back pedaling on that so fast it's astounding.

The facts that seem to be coming out about the President's actions, and those around him, frankly make Watergate look like a parking ticket.

The evidence says that the President held hostage the duties of his office in an attempt to get another sovereign Government, who is in a war for the survival of their country, to make a statement that he could then use as an attack again the presumed opponent of his re-election campaign. The evidence also shows that a number of government officials were either removed, or quit because they refused to go along with it, or it was believed that they'd get in the way.

If this was a Democrat President, the Republicans would have been losing their minds over this sort of evidence, but instead they have been backing already debunked Conspiracy Theories created by Russia Intelligence, and spread by corrupt pro-Russian Oligarchs and Ukrainian ex-prosecutors who were fired for corrupt practices.

At this point I am waiting for the Republicans to start claiming that Trump's actions were acceptable because the Democrats hoaxed the Apollo Landings under JKF and Johnson.

acbytesla · 28th November 2019, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

funny thing, Graham said the same thing about the Transcripts he demanded were released, well tl;dr, but close enough.

My point was that yes he did answer your question, in that impeachment is about cleansing the office when a official abuses it, and that is why it should be done.

Funnily enough, in 1999 when they were all for impeaching Clinton, Republicans were all saying the right things about the need for impeachment and what it was. Now they are all back pedaling on that so fast it's astounding.

The facts that seem to be coming out about the President's actions, and those around him, frankly make Watergate look like a parking ticket.

The evidence says that the President held hostage the duties of his office in an attempt to get another sovereign Government, who is in a war for the survival of their country, to make a statement that he could then use as an attack again the presumed opponent of his re-election campaign. The evidence also shows that a number of government officials were either removed, or quit because they refused to go along with it, or it was believed that they'd get in the way.

If this was a Democrat President, the Republicans would have been losing their minds over this sort of evidence, but instead they have been backing already debunked Conspiracy Theories created by Russia Intelligence, and spread by corrupt pro-Russian Oligarchs and Ukrainian ex-prosecutors who were fired for corrupt practices.

At this point I am waiting for the Republicans to start claiming that Trump's actions were acceptable because the Democrats hoaxed the Apollo Landings under JKF and Johnson.

From my perspective, it is not so much about cleansing the office, but about declaring limits to POTUS. If Trump is allowed to use Federal resources to smear political opponents without ramifications, future Presidents will also ignore those limits.

Stacyhs · 28th November 2019, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

funny thing, Graham said the same thing about the Transcripts he demanded were released, well tl;dr, but close enough.

My point was that yes he did answer your question, in that impeachment is about cleansing the office when a official abuses it, and that is why it should be done.

Funnily enough, in 1999 when they were all for impeaching Clinton, Republicans were all saying the right things about the need for impeachment and what it was. Now they are all back pedaling on that so fast it's astounding.

The facts that seem to be coming out about the President's actions, and those around him, frankly make Watergate look like a parking ticket.

The evidence says that the President held hostage the duties of his office in an attempt to get another sovereign Government, who is in a war for the survival of their country, to make a statement that he could then use as an attack again the presumed opponent of his re-election campaign. The evidence also shows that a number of government officials were either removed, or quit because they refused to go along with it, or it was believed that they'd get in the way.

If this was a Democrat President, the Republicans would have been losing their minds over this sort of evidence, but instead they have been backing already debunked Conspiracy Theories created by Russia Intelligence, and spread by corrupt pro-Russian Oligarchs and Ukrainian ex-prosecutors who were fired for corrupt practices.

At this point I am waiting for the Republicans to start claiming that Trump's actions were acceptable because the Democrats hoaxed the Apollo Landings under JKF and Johnson.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

From my perspective, it is not so much about cleansing the office, but about declaring limits to POTUS. If Trump is allowed to use Federal resources to smear political opponents without ramifications, future Presidents will also ignore those limits.

Exactly! I cannot say how strongly they disgust me with their blatant hypocrisy and party before country actions.

CapelDodger · 28th November 2019, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

No. The most important issue is what did Trump do and what should be the consequences of it.

Indeed. And the most interesting issue, to my mind, is the Republican response to what Trump did and to the impeachment inquiry itself.

PhantomWolf · 28th November 2019, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

From my perspective, it is not so much about cleansing the office, but about declaring limits to POTUS. If Trump is allowed to use Federal resources to smear political opponents without ramifications, future Presidents will also ignore those limits.

I would consider that to be a part of "cleansing the office."

Venom · 28th November 2019, 10:10 PM

Very interesting article on Wikipedia on efforts to impeach Barack Obama.

Originally Posted by Efforts to impeach Barack Obama

Multiple surveys of U.S. public opinion found that the clear majority of Americans rejected the idea of impeaching Obama, while a majority of Republicans were in favor; for example, CNN found in July 2014 that 57% of Republicans supported these efforts while about two thirds of adult Americans in general disagreed with them.[4]

Skeptic Ginger · 28th November 2019, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

Very interesting article on Wikipedia on efforts to impeach Barack Obama.

For what?

Typical projection, they really have tried to use impeachment to overturn the Presidency. They hunted and hunted for something on Clinton including hiring Jones a $600,000. lawyer.

There's no way they had anything on Obama. I think we would have heard about it.

And here they are with a corrupt bastard in the WH and they pretend the impeachment effort is a political witch hunt.

How can you Trump supporters breathe with so much hypocrisy on your chests?

Stacyhs · 28th November 2019, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

Very interesting article on Wikipedia on efforts to impeach Barack Obama.

I echo the 'for what?'

PhantomWolf · 28th November 2019, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

For what?

The worse offences of all Presidents, wearing a Tan suit and putting Dijon Mustard and no Ketchup on his cheese burger!

Oh, and the High crime of being a Democrat while Presidenting.

(Probably being Black while Presidenting too...)

smartcooky · 29th November 2019, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

For what?

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I echo the 'for what?'

Let me summarise that for you

In October 2010, prior to the elections in which Republicans won control of the House, Jonathan Chait published an article in The New Republic called "Scandal TBD" where he predicted that if Republicans were to win control of the House, and Barack Obama were to win re-election in 2012, the Republicans would try to impeach Obama and use any reason possible as pretext.

Here are some of the ones mentioned

1. Obama is alleged to have offered Rep Joe Sestak (D-PA) a job to persuade him to drop out of the PA Senate primary election against Arlen Specter.

2. In order to prevent Obama from "pushing his agenda". The impeachment of Barack Obama "needs to happen" - Rep Mike Burgess (R-TX)

3. Because of his immigration policy,... "if it’s bad enough and if shenanigans [are] involved in it, then of course impeachment is always a possibility" - Sen John Kyl (R-AZ).

4. Obama authorized air strikes against Libya during the Libyan Civil War

5. the alleged WH cover-up after the Benghazi attack

6. the Birther Conspiracy - nuff said about that pile of steaming feces

7. the Bowe Bergdahl, Taliban detainees swap.

8. the transgender bathroom directive... yeah, I said WTF too!

For mine, the most interesting thing in the article was the fact that John Dean, former White House Counsel to Richard Nixon, criticized the movement to impeach Obama as "insanity," arguing that Republican demands for impeachment are grounded in political disagreements rather than actual impeachable offences. He said these people are not conservatives, who by definition seek to protect the system; rather they are radicals who are gaming our constitutional system..

"Partisans promoting and pushing impeachment as a political solution to being out of power seem to forget that what goes around comes around"

Are you listening Repugnicans?

Darat · 29th November 2019, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

For what?

Typical projection, they really have tried to use impeachment to overturn the Presidency. They hunted and hunted for something on Clinton including hiring Jones a $600,000. lawyer.

There's no way they had anything on Obama. I think we would have heard about it.

And here they are with a corrupt bastard in the WH and they pretend the impeachment effort is a political witch hunt.

How can you Trump supporters breathe with so much hypocrisy on your chests?

No way they had anything on Obama? Please, drop your partisanship for a moment, even you can't claim there aren't compromising photos of him, in a tan suit!

varwoche · 29th November 2019, 06:31 AM

Y'all forgot Obama's terrorist fist bump. You do know who the type of person who does terrorist fist bumps don't you? It starts with a t.

The sheriff's a ******! Impeach!

JoeMorgue · 29th November 2019, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

From my perspective, it is not so much about cleansing the office, but about declaring limits to POTUS. If Trump is allowed to use Federal resources to smear political opponents without ramifications, future Presidents will also ignore those limits.

I've said it before. Trump is a genie that will not be easy to put back in the bottle.

The biggest gut check of the last few years has been the realization of how much of the stability in our government was based on the honor system, or a puppet theater act of it which amounts to the same thing, and how much a dishonest agent breaks it without an easy way of reigning him in.

But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind. And that's not good.

We've already heard minor variations on "No we can't fix that yet, we have to keep it to undue the damage Trump has done..." on this board already.

Trump's success is not being lost on politicians of all stripes, you can take that to bank. As disgusted and opposed to his actions as they might be, there is not a politicians in the country right now that doesn't at least a teeny-tiny voice in his head going "But it's been so easy for him to break the system... but if you do that you won't break the system no siree, you'll just fix it. So what if..."

We need to silence that voice.

Belz... · 29th November 2019, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I've said it before. Trump is a genie that will not be easy to put back in the bottle.

The biggest gut check of the last few years has been the realization of how much of the stability in our government was based on the honor system, or a puppet theater act of it which amounts to the same thing, and how much a dishonest agent breaks it without an easy way of reigning him in.

But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind. And that's not good.

We've already heard minor variations on "No we can't fix that yet, we have to keep it to undue the damage Trump has done..." on this board already.

Trump's success is not being lost on politicians of all stripes, you can take that to bank. As disgusted and opposed to his actions as they might be, there is not a politicians in the country right now that doesn't at least a teeny-tiny voice in his head going "But it's been so easy for him to break the system... but if you do that you won't break the system no siree, you'll just fix it. So what if..."

We need to silence that voice.

This. This problem is not going to end with Trump. You're in for a rough ride.

CapelDodger · 29th November 2019, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

At this point I am waiting for the Republicans to start claiming that Trump's actions were acceptable because the Democrats hoaxed the Apollo Landings under JKF and Johnson.

One result of the impeachment inquiry is that the Republican Party has disappeared completely into the CT alt-world, as quite a few people predicted they would eventually.

CapelDodger · 29th November 2019, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

This. This problem is not going to end with Trump. You're in for a rough ride.

Constitutional Amendments tend to get bandied about, but I think this time there's a real need for one to firmly define, in modern terms, the powers and limitations of each arm of the US government. At the moment too much is being left to judges to decide, and the rot Trump has spread in the judiciary makes that deeply problematic.

BrooklynBaby · 29th November 2019, 08:12 AM

Not surprising Democrats support Schiff and his bunker star chamber. Not surprising at all. For some reason, people who have lost their moral compass never seem to realize it until it is too late to unring that bell. You know, having hit it with a sledgehammer, and all...

Belz... · 29th November 2019, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

Not surprising Democrats support Schiff and his bunker star chamber. Not surprising at all. For some reason, people who have lost their moral compass never seem to realize it until it is too late to unring that bell. You know, having hit it with a sledgehammer, and all...

Have you missed all the public hearings, then?

Horatius · 29th November 2019, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

One result of the impeachment inquiry is that the Republican Party has disappeared completely into the CT alt-world, as quite a few people predicted they would eventually.

Yep. Years ago, when the CT forum was one of the most active we had here, I tried to explain that widespread belief in CTs would be destructive to democracy. When "It's all a plot!", what's the point in elections? If you really believe one side is fixing the election, you either try to fix it yourself, or you abandon elections entirely.

And that's what we're seeing now. Lots of people on both sides have lost, or are starting to lose, their faith that the next election will be a free and fair one. And reversing that will be extraordinarily difficult. I'm not sure if it will even be possible.

Trebuchet · 29th November 2019, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

This. This problem is not going to end with Trump. You're in for a rough ride.

Prior to his election I said I'd move to Canada if he won. I should have tried more seriously to do that.

Bob001 · 29th November 2019, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Prior to his election I said I'd move to Canada if he won. I should have tried more seriously to do that.

I have looked into it. It's not easy. The Canadians don't want us.

The Great Zaganza · 29th November 2019, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

Not surprising Democrats support Schiff and his bunker star chamber. Not surprising at all. For some reason, people who have lost their moral compass never seem to realize it until it is too late to unring that bell. You know, having hit it with a sledgehammer, and all...

Please help me understand: which moral principle is being violated by the House investigating the President?

bruto · 29th November 2019, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I've said it before. Trump is a genie that will not be easy to put back in the bottle.

The biggest gut check of the last few years has been the realization of how much of the stability in our government was based on the honor system, or a puppet theater act of it which amounts to the same thing, and how much a dishonest agent breaks it without an easy way of reigning him in.

But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind. And that's not good.

We've already heard minor variations on "No we can't fix that yet, we have to keep it to undue the damage Trump has done..." on this board already.

Trump's success is not being lost on politicians of all stripes, you can take that to bank. As disgusted and opposed to his actions as they might be, there is not a politicians in the country right now that doesn't at least a teeny-tiny voice in his head going "But it's been so easy for him to break the system... but if you do that you won't break the system no siree, you'll just fix it. So what if..."

We need to silence that voice.

I'm somewhat reminded here of the reaction of many to the financial meltdown of a few years ago, in which a surprising number of people suggested that the best way to undo the damage done by financial misdeeds was to hire the people who did it because they were the only ones who understood it. When you realize you're speeding toward the precipice, the answer seems not to slow down but to speed in another direction.

Belz... · 29th November 2019, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

I have looked into it. It's not easy. The Canadians don't want us.

It's really not that hard. Just find a cute Canadian to marry.

Alternatively you can get a work or study permit. We get tons of Europeans and Africans (lots of French speakers on the contient) here.

Belz... · 29th November 2019, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Please help me understand: which moral principle is being violated by the House investigating the President?

Total obedience to dear leader¹?

¹: Dear leader is defined as a Republican President.

Beelzebuddy · 29th November 2019, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I've said it before. Trump is a genie that will not be easy to put back in the bottle.

The biggest gut check of the last few years has been the realization of how much of the stability in our government was based on the honor system, or a puppet theater act of it which amounts to the same thing, and how much a dishonest agent breaks it without an easy way of reigning him in.

But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind. And that's not good.

We've already heard minor variations on "No we can't fix that yet, we have to keep it to undue the damage Trump has done..." on this board already.

Trump's success is not being lost on politicians of all stripes, you can take that to bank. As disgusted and opposed to his actions as they might be, there is not a politicians in the country right now that doesn't at least a teeny-tiny voice in his head going "But it's been so easy for him to break the system... but if you do that you won't break the system no siree, you'll just fix it. So what if..."

We need to silence that voice.

I disagree. I've actually come around to the notion that what we need is an anti-Trump.

The Democrats have been trying to be the adult in the room for four decades. It doesn't work. It might be a good tactical move at times but it's not a viable strategy in the long term, because the Republicans (now the Trumpers) have no reason not to screw things up as often and as hard as they can, and occupy the Democrats' time just cleaning up their mess. If you go with a sensible moderate whose main concern is trying to install reasonable measures on abuse of power, expect the Trumpers to stall while screaming bloody murder for four or eight years until they get another Trump in office. As long as they are the only ones benefiting from a lack of compromise, they have zero interest in fostering it. None.

But with a progressive extremist in the White House, the kind of anti-Trump bleeding heart mofo who'd be just as willing to burn the goddamn place down as Trump is, who for context isn't even running in this election, I'd bet we'd suddenly see a LOT more cooperation from the Trumpers. Moscow Mitch wouldn't be so much of an obstructionist asshat when it comes to permanent safeguards, if the alternative is his donors get their laundered wealth nationalized by executive order.

Belz... · 29th November 2019, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

The Democrats have been trying to be the adult in the room for four decades. It doesn't work. It might be a good tactical move at times but it's not a viable strategy in the long term, because the Republicans (now the Trumpers) have no reason not to screw things up as often and as hard as they can, and occupy the Democrats' time just cleaning up their mess.

And then complain that the Democrats are focusing on cleaning up the mess and aren't doing anything.

Quote:

But with a progressive extremist in the White House, the kind of anti-Trump bleeding heart mofo who'd be just as willing to burn the goddamn place down as Trump is, who for context isn't even running in this election, I'd bet we'd suddenly see a LOT more cooperation from the Trumpers. Moscow Mitch wouldn't be so much of an obstructionist asshat when it comes to permanent safeguards, if the alternative is his donors get their laundered wealth nationalized by executive order.

No, they'll still be screaming bloody murder, and bide their time. They'll just make sure it'll be a lot harder for a Democrat to win next time.

See, they don't have to deal with a democrat in power if they just flip the chess board and change the rules of the game.

Beelzebuddy · 29th November 2019, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

No, they'll still be screaming bloody murder, and bide their time. They'll just make sure it'll be a lot harder for a Democrat to win next time.

See, they don't have to deal with a democrat in power if they just flip the chess board and change the rules of the game.

All of which they're already doing. You can't fix scorched earth by being reasonable at it.

Belz... · 29th November 2019, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

All of which they're already doing. You can't fix scorched earth by being reasonable at it.

Maybe not, but what I'm saying is that Moscow Mitch will not change the rules if it benefits him the next time around. The Democrats have to win big in order to change them back, before it's too late.

JoeMorgue · 29th November 2019, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

I disagree. I've actually come around to the notion that what we need is an anti-Trump.

That's fine if you trust the Dems to get power and just literally never do anything wrong it or never change and never have their version of Trump.

I do not.

Beelzebuddy · 29th November 2019, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

That's fine if you trust the Dems to get power and just literally never do anything wrong it or never change and never have their version of Trump.

I do not.

That's more likely to happen than the Trumpers getting tired of winning and voluntarily setting aside their power.

Trebuchet · 29th November 2019, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

I have looked into it. It's not easy. The Canadians don't want us.

That's what I found as well. All I wanted was to move myself, my wife, and a couple of million dollars in assets into their country, spend my pension and Social Security on their economy, and not take any jobs away from Canadians. Ain't happening.

JoeMorgue · 29th November 2019, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

That's more likely to happen than the Trumpers getting tired of winning and voluntarily setting aside their power.

And the only way Palpatine could stop the Seperatists was to be granted emergency powers to create a clone army.

No. The Dems don't get a double standard because they are "Stopping Trump and he's worse."

And, before you start, "Trump is worse" is true, you don't have to convince me of it.

smartcooky · 29th November 2019, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Prior to his election I said I'd move to Canada if he won. I should have tried more seriously to do that.

Originally Posted by Bob001

I have looked into it. It's not easy. The Canadians don't want us.

Yeah. They might end up building a wall, and getting the US to pay for it.

Steve · 29th November 2019, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Yeah. They might end up building a wall, and getting the US to pay for it.

This Canadian would like to see more anti-Trump Americans admitted to Canada. Anyone who wants to come for that reason is probably smart enough to be an asset to Canada.

Cabbage · 29th November 2019, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind.

That's very questionable at best, but you make it absolutely absurd when you claim it's "naive" to think otherwise. Where are these people? Point one of them out to me, please.

The same people who would approve of someone like Trump approve of this specific instance of Trumpish behavior.

Stacyhs · 29th November 2019, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

Not surprising Democrats support Schiff and his bunker star chamber. Not surprising at all.

You must have an IV with a constant GOP Kool Aid drip.

In what way were the deposition hearings a "bunker star chamber"? Were Republicans not allowed to attend? Were the times and place of the hearings withheld from the Republicans? Were they not allowed to ask questions or otherwise participate in an equal manner?

Quote:

For some reason, people who have lost their moral compass never seem to realize it until it is too late to unring that bell. You know, having hit it with a sledgehammer, and all...

On this we agree. My moral compass does not include supporting a multi-wife serial adulterer who had sex with a porn star while his third wife had just given birth to their son, who paid her off and then bald faced lied to the American people about it, who disrespects women and brags about being able to 'whatever he wants' to them because he's a celebrity, who behaves like a childish name calling bully on the playground, and who is narcissist and a pathological liar who tells an average of 12 lies a day. And those don't even include his political immorality:
cozying up to murderous asshats like Kim Jun Un, Putin, and bin Salman, separating thousands of children from their parents, betraying the Kurds, undoing anything Obama related out of his own petty jealousy of a far better man, rolling back environmental protections, denying climate change, damaging our relationships with long time allies, and the list goes on and on.

Yes, people who lose their moral compass don't seem to realize it until too late. I suggest Republicans who continue to support Trump take a good long look in a mirror.

28th November 2019, 01:45 PM	#83
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 23,889	Originally Posted by theprestige It hasn't really been addressed. If the point is as you say, then it really needs to be addressed directly, by PhantomWolf. Showing Graham's hypocrisy in no way answers the question I was asking. Either PW thought he was answering my question, in which case, what the hell? Or he thought he wasn't answering my question. In which case, what the hell? Of course it was. Just because your fingers are in your ears doesn't mean it wasn't addressed. And it was addressed by Graham twenty years ago in that video. That Graham is now a hypocrite doesn't make what he said twenty years ago any less valid. Graham explains why impeachment is necessary. Granted it didn't really apply to a blowjob or even lying about a blowjob. But it does apply to corruption, bribery, abuse of power and obstruction of justice.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

28th November 2019, 02:16 PM	#84
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 19,199	Originally Posted by theprestige yt;dw funny thing, Graham said the same thing about the Transcripts he demanded were released, well tl;dr, but close enough. My point was that yes he did answer your question, in that impeachment is about cleansing the office when a official abuses it, and that is why it should be done. Funnily enough, in 1999 when they were all for impeaching Clinton, Republicans were all saying the right things about the need for impeachment and what it was. Now they are all back pedaling on that so fast it's astounding. The facts that seem to be coming out about the President's actions, and those around him, frankly make Watergate look like a parking ticket. The evidence says that the President held hostage the duties of his office in an attempt to get another sovereign Government, who is in a war for the survival of their country, to make a statement that he could then use as an attack again the presumed opponent of his re-election campaign. The evidence also shows that a number of government officials were either removed, or quit because they refused to go along with it, or it was believed that they'd get in the way. If this was a Democrat President, the Republicans would have been losing their minds over this sort of evidence, but instead they have been backing already debunked Conspiracy Theories created by Russia Intelligence, and spread by corrupt pro-Russian Oligarchs and Ukrainian ex-prosecutors who were fired for corrupt practices. At this point I am waiting for the Republicans to start claiming that Trump's actions were acceptable because the Democrats hoaxed the Apollo Landings under JKF and Johnson.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) Last edited by PhantomWolf; 28th November 2019 at 02:18 PM.

28th November 2019, 02:50 PM	#85
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 23,889	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf funny thing, Graham said the same thing about the Transcripts he demanded were released, well tl;dr, but close enough. My point was that yes he did answer your question, in that impeachment is about cleansing the office when a official abuses it, and that is why it should be done. Funnily enough, in 1999 when they were all for impeaching Clinton, Republicans were all saying the right things about the need for impeachment and what it was. Now they are all back pedaling on that so fast it's astounding. The facts that seem to be coming out about the President's actions, and those around him, frankly make Watergate look like a parking ticket. The evidence says that the President held hostage the duties of his office in an attempt to get another sovereign Government, who is in a war for the survival of their country, to make a statement that he could then use as an attack again the presumed opponent of his re-election campaign. The evidence also shows that a number of government officials were either removed, or quit because they refused to go along with it, or it was believed that they'd get in the way. If this was a Democrat President, the Republicans would have been losing their minds over this sort of evidence, but instead they have been backing already debunked Conspiracy Theories created by Russia Intelligence, and spread by corrupt pro-Russian Oligarchs and Ukrainian ex-prosecutors who were fired for corrupt practices. At this point I am waiting for the Republicans to start claiming that Trump's actions were acceptable because the Democrats hoaxed the Apollo Landings under JKF and Johnson. From my perspective, it is not so much about cleansing the office, but about declaring limits to POTUS. If Trump is allowed to use Federal resources to smear political opponents without ramifications, future Presidents will also ignore those limits.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

28th November 2019, 04:15 PM	#87
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 24,637	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward No. The most important issue is what did Trump do and what should be the consequences of it. Indeed. And the most interesting issue, to my mind, is the Republican response to what Trump did and to the impeachment inquiry itself.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

28th November 2019, 09:50 PM	#88
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 19,199	Originally Posted by acbytesla From my perspective, it is not so much about cleansing the office, but about declaring limits to POTUS. If Trump is allowed to use Federal resources to smear political opponents without ramifications, future Presidents will also ignore those limits. I would consider that to be a part of "cleansing the office."
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

28th November 2019, 01:10 PM	#81
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41,133	Originally Posted by Lurch Probably addressed before I scrolled further... The point is to show Graham's rank hypocrisy. It hasn't really been addressed. If the point is as you say, then it really needs to be addressed directly, by PhantomWolf. Showing Graham's hypocrisy in no way answers the question I was asking. Either PW thought he was answering my question, in which case, what the hell? Or he thought he wasn't answering my question. In which case, what the hell?

28th November 2019, 01:32 PM	#82
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,088	Originally Posted by theprestige It hasn't really been addressed. If the point is as you say, then it really needs to be addressed directly, by PhantomWolf. Showing Graham's hypocrisy in no way answers the question I was asking. Either PW thought he was answering my question, in which case, what the hell? Or he thought he wasn't answering my question. In which case, what the hell? Graham makes a strong case for why the American people need to be able to believe what the president says -- which is to say, a strong case for an additional Article of Impeachment against Trump.

28th November 2019, 03:37 PM	#86
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 10,305	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf funny thing, Graham said the same thing about the Transcripts he demanded were released, well tl;dr, but close enough. My point was that yes he did answer your question, in that impeachment is about cleansing the office when a official abuses it, and that is why it should be done. Funnily enough, in 1999 when they were all for impeaching Clinton, Republicans were all saying the right things about the need for impeachment and what it was. Now they are all back pedaling on that so fast it's astounding. The facts that seem to be coming out about the President's actions, and those around him, frankly make Watergate look like a parking ticket. The evidence says that the President held hostage the duties of his office in an attempt to get another sovereign Government, who is in a war for the survival of their country, to make a statement that he could then use as an attack again the presumed opponent of his re-election campaign. The evidence also shows that a number of government officials were either removed, or quit because they refused to go along with it, or it was believed that they'd get in the way. If this was a Democrat President, the Republicans would have been losing their minds over this sort of evidence, but instead they have been backing already debunked Conspiracy Theories created by Russia Intelligence, and spread by corrupt pro-Russian Oligarchs and Ukrainian ex-prosecutors who were fired for corrupt practices. At this point I am waiting for the Republicans to start claiming that Trump's actions were acceptable because the Democrats hoaxed the Apollo Landings under JKF and Johnson. Originally Posted by acbytesla From my perspective, it is not so much about cleansing the office, but about declaring limits to POTUS. If Trump is allowed to use Federal resources to smear political opponents without ramifications, future Presidents will also ignore those limits. Exactly! I cannot say how strongly they disgust me with their blatant hypocrisy and party before country actions.

28th November 2019, 10:10 PM	#89
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 3,590	Very interesting article on Wikipedia on efforts to impeach Barack Obama. Originally Posted by Efforts to impeach Barack Obama Multiple surveys of U.S. public opinion found that the clear majority of Americans rejected the idea of impeaching Obama, while a majority of Republicans were in favor; for example, CNN found in July 2014 that 57% of Republicans supported these efforts while about two thirds of adult Americans in general disagreed with them.[4]

28th November 2019, 10:36 PM	#90
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78,036	Originally Posted by Venom Very interesting article on Wikipedia on efforts to impeach Barack Obama. For what? Typical projection, they really have tried to use impeachment to overturn the Presidency. They hunted and hunted for something on Clinton including hiring Jones a $600,000. lawyer. There's no way they had anything on Obama. I think we would have heard about it. And here they are with a corrupt bastard in the WH and they pretend the impeachment effort is a political witch hunt. How can you Trump supporters breathe with so much hypocrisy on your chests?
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

28th November 2019, 11:11 PM	#91
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 10,305	Originally Posted by Venom Very interesting article on Wikipedia on efforts to impeach Barack Obama. I echo the 'for what?'

28th November 2019, 11:56 PM	#92
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 19,199	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger For what? The worse offences of all Presidents, wearing a Tan suit and putting Dijon Mustard and no Ketchup on his cheese burger! Oh, and the High crime of being a Democrat while Presidenting. (Probably being Black while Presidenting too...)
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

29th November 2019, 12:02 AM	#93
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 13,143	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger For what? Originally Posted by Stacyhs I echo the 'for what?' Let me summarise that for you In October 2010, prior to the elections in which Republicans won control of the House, Jonathan Chait published an article in The New Republic called "Scandal TBD" where he predicted that if Republicans were to win control of the House, and Barack Obama were to win re-election in 2012, the Republicans would try to impeach Obama and use any reason possible as pretext. Here are some of the ones mentioned 1. Obama is alleged to have offered Rep Joe Sestak (D-PA) a job to persuade him to drop out of the PA Senate primary election against Arlen Specter. 2. In order to prevent Obama from "pushing his agenda". The impeachment of Barack Obama "needs to happen" - Rep Mike Burgess (R-TX) 3. Because of his immigration policy,... "if it’s bad enough and if shenanigans [are] involved in it, then of course impeachment is always a possibility" - Sen John Kyl (R-AZ). 4. Obama authorized air strikes against Libya during the Libyan Civil War 5. the alleged WH cover-up after the Benghazi attack 6. the Birther Conspiracy - nuff said about that pile of steaming feces 7. the Bowe Bergdahl, Taliban detainees swap. 8. the transgender bathroom directive... yeah, I said WTF too! For mine, the most interesting thing in the article was the fact that John Dean, former White House Counsel to Richard Nixon, criticized the movement to impeach Obama as "insanity," arguing that Republican demands for impeachment are grounded in political disagreements rather than actual impeachable offences. He said these people are not conservatives, who by definition seek to protect the system; rather they are radicals who are gaming our constitutional system.. "Partisans promoting and pushing impeachment as a political solution to being out of power seem to forget that what goes around comes around" Are you listening Repugnicans?
	__________________ "You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

29th November 2019, 12:37 AM	#94
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 89,270	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger For what? Typical projection, they really have tried to use impeachment to overturn the Presidency. They hunted and hunted for something on Clinton including hiring Jones a $600,000. lawyer. There's no way they had anything on Obama. I think we would have heard about it. And here they are with a corrupt bastard in the WH and they pretend the impeachment effort is a political witch hunt. How can you Trump supporters breathe with so much hypocrisy on your chests? No way they had anything on Obama? Please, drop your partisanship for a moment, even you can't claim there aren't compromising photos of him, in a tan suit!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

29th November 2019, 06:31 AM	#95
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 13,828	Y'all forgot Obama's terrorist fist bump. You do know who the type of person who does terrorist fist bumps don't you? It starts with a t. The sheriff's a ******! Impeach!
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

29th November 2019, 06:42 AM	#96
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,052	Originally Posted by acbytesla From my perspective, it is not so much about cleansing the office, but about declaring limits to POTUS. If Trump is allowed to use Federal resources to smear political opponents without ramifications, future Presidents will also ignore those limits. I've said it before. Trump is a genie that will not be easy to put back in the bottle. The biggest gut check of the last few years has been the realization of how much of the stability in our government was based on the honor system, or a puppet theater act of it which amounts to the same thing, and how much a dishonest agent breaks it without an easy way of reigning him in. But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind. And that's not good. We've already heard minor variations on "No we can't fix that yet, we have to keep it to undue the damage Trump has done..." on this board already. Trump's success is not being lost on politicians of all stripes, you can take that to bank. As disgusted and opposed to his actions as they might be, there is not a politicians in the country right now that doesn't at least a teeny-tiny voice in his head going "But it's been so easy for him to break the system... but if you do that you won't break the system no siree, you'll just fix it. So what if..." We need to silence that voice.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

29th November 2019, 07:16 AM	#97
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,722	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I've said it before. Trump is a genie that will not be easy to put back in the bottle. The biggest gut check of the last few years has been the realization of how much of the stability in our government was based on the honor system, or a puppet theater act of it which amounts to the same thing, and how much a dishonest agent breaks it without an easy way of reigning him in. But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind. And that's not good. We've already heard minor variations on "No we can't fix that yet, we have to keep it to undue the damage Trump has done..." on this board already. Trump's success is not being lost on politicians of all stripes, you can take that to bank. As disgusted and opposed to his actions as they might be, there is not a politicians in the country right now that doesn't at least a teeny-tiny voice in his head going "But it's been so easy for him to break the system... but if you do that you won't break the system no siree, you'll just fix it. So what if..." We need to silence that voice. This. This problem is not going to end with Trump. You're in for a rough ride.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

29th November 2019, 07:49 AM	#98
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 24,637	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf At this point I am waiting for the Republicans to start claiming that Trump's actions were acceptable because the Democrats hoaxed the Apollo Landings under JKF and Johnson. One result of the impeachment inquiry is that the Republican Party has disappeared completely into the CT alt-world, as quite a few people predicted they would eventually.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

29th November 2019, 08:02 AM	#99
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 24,637	Originally Posted by Belz... This. This problem is not going to end with Trump. You're in for a rough ride. Constitutional Amendments tend to get bandied about, but I think this time there's a real need for one to firmly define, in modern terms, the powers and limitations of each arm of the US government. At the moment too much is being left to judges to decide, and the rot Trump has spread in the judiciary makes that deeply problematic.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

29th November 2019, 08:12 AM	#100
BrooklynBaby Muse Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 985	Not surprising Democrats support Schiff and his bunker star chamber. Not surprising at all. For some reason, people who have lost their moral compass never seem to realize it until it is too late to unring that bell. You know, having hit it with a sledgehammer, and all...
BrooklynBaby Muse Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 985

29th November 2019, 08:27 AM	#101
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,722	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby Not surprising Democrats support Schiff and his bunker star chamber. Not surprising at all. For some reason, people who have lost their moral compass never seem to realize it until it is too late to unring that bell. You know, having hit it with a sledgehammer, and all... Have you missed all the public hearings, then?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

29th November 2019, 08:32 AM	#102
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 27,473	Originally Posted by CapelDodger One result of the impeachment inquiry is that the Republican Party has disappeared completely into the CT alt-world, as quite a few people predicted they would eventually. Yep. Years ago, when the CT forum was one of the most active we had here, I tried to explain that widespread belief in CTs would be destructive to democracy. When "It's all a plot!", what's the point in elections? If you really believe one side is fixing the election, you either try to fix it yourself, or you abandon elections entirely. And that's what we're seeing now. Lots of people on both sides have lost, or are starting to lose, their faith that the next election will be a free and fair one. And reversing that will be extraordinarily difficult. I'm not sure if it will even be possible.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

29th November 2019, 08:33 AM	#103
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwet Posts: 24,497	Originally Posted by Belz... This. This problem is not going to end with Trump. You're in for a rough ride. Prior to his election I said I'd move to Canada if he won. I should have tried more seriously to do that.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

29th November 2019, 08:55 AM	#104
Bob001 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,528	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Prior to his election I said I'd move to Canada if he won. I should have tried more seriously to do that. I have looked into it. It's not easy. The Canadians don't want us.
Bob001 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,528

29th November 2019, 09:19 AM	#105
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 10,710	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby Not surprising Democrats support Schiff and his bunker star chamber. Not surprising at all. For some reason, people who have lost their moral compass never seem to realize it until it is too late to unring that bell. You know, having hit it with a sledgehammer, and all... Please help me understand: which moral principle is being violated by the House investigating the President?
	__________________ “Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham

29th November 2019, 09:23 AM	#106
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 25,038	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I've said it before. Trump is a genie that will not be easy to put back in the bottle. The biggest gut check of the last few years has been the realization of how much of the stability in our government was based on the honor system, or a puppet theater act of it which amounts to the same thing, and how much a dishonest agent breaks it without an easy way of reigning him in. But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind. And that's not good. We've already heard minor variations on "No we can't fix that yet, we have to keep it to undue the damage Trump has done..." on this board already. Trump's success is not being lost on politicians of all stripes, you can take that to bank. As disgusted and opposed to his actions as they might be, there is not a politicians in the country right now that doesn't at least a teeny-tiny voice in his head going "But it's been so easy for him to break the system... but if you do that you won't break the system no siree, you'll just fix it. So what if..." We need to silence that voice. I'm somewhat reminded here of the reaction of many to the financial meltdown of a few years ago, in which a surprising number of people suggested that the best way to undo the damage done by financial misdeeds was to hire the people who did it because they were the only ones who understood it. When you realize you're speeding toward the precipice, the answer seems not to slow down but to speed in another direction.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

29th November 2019, 09:29 AM	#107
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,722	Originally Posted by Bob001 I have looked into it. It's not easy. The Canadians don't want us. It's really not that hard. Just find a cute Canadian to marry. Alternatively you can get a work or study permit. We get tons of Europeans and Africans (lots of French speakers on the contient) here.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

29th November 2019, 09:30 AM	#108
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,722	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Please help me understand: which moral principle is being violated by the House investigating the President? Total obedience to dear leader¹? ¹: Dear leader is defined as a Republican President.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

29th November 2019, 09:52 AM	#109
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 7,138	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I've said it before. Trump is a genie that will not be easy to put back in the bottle. The biggest gut check of the last few years has been the realization of how much of the stability in our government was based on the honor system, or a puppet theater act of it which amounts to the same thing, and how much a dishonest agent breaks it without an easy way of reigning him in. But, and you've be naive and disillusion to think otherwise, right now there are a lot of people where the thought of "Well okay... but all we have to do is get our version, the good version, of Trump into office and have him just get what he wants by not playing the game" is starting to creep into and solidify in their mind. And that's not good. We've already heard minor variations on "No we can't fix that yet, we have to keep it to undue the damage Trump has done..." on this board already. Trump's success is not being lost on politicians of all stripes, you can take that to bank. As disgusted and opposed to his actions as they might be, there is not a politicians in the country right now that doesn't at least a teeny-tiny voice in his head going "But it's been so easy for him to break the system... but if you do that you won't break the system no siree, you'll just fix it. So what if..." We need to silence that voice. I disagree. I've actually come around to the notion that what we need is an anti-Trump. The Democrats have been trying to be the adult in the room for four decades. It doesn't work. It might be a good tactical move at times but it's not a viable strategy in the long term, because the Republicans (now the Trumpers) have no reason not to screw things up as often and as hard as they can, and occupy the Democrats' time just cleaning up their mess. If you go with a sensible moderate whose main concern is trying to install reasonable measures on abuse of power, expect the Trumpers to stall while screaming bloody murder for four or eight years until they get another Trump in office. As long as they are the only ones benefiting from a lack of compromise, they have zero interest in fostering it. None. But with a progressive extremist in the White House, the kind of anti-Trump bleeding heart mofo who'd be just as willing to burn the goddamn place down as Trump is, who for context isn't even running in this election, I'd bet we'd suddenly see a LOT more cooperation from the Trumpers. Moscow Mitch wouldn't be so much of an obstructionist asshat when it comes to permanent safeguards, if the alternative is his donors get their laundered wealth nationalized by executive order.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 7,138

29th November 2019, 09:56 AM	#110
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,722	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy The Democrats have been trying to be the adult in the room for four decades. It doesn't work. It might be a good tactical move at times but it's not a viable strategy in the long term, because the Republicans (now the Trumpers) have no reason not to screw things up as often and as hard as they can, and occupy the Democrats' time just cleaning up their mess. And then complain that the Democrats are focusing on cleaning up the mess and aren't doing anything. Quote: But with a progressive extremist in the White House, the kind of anti-Trump bleeding heart mofo who'd be just as willing to burn the goddamn place down as Trump is, who for context isn't even running in this election, I'd bet we'd suddenly see a LOT more cooperation from the Trumpers. Moscow Mitch wouldn't be so much of an obstructionist asshat when it comes to permanent safeguards, if the alternative is his donors get their laundered wealth nationalized by executive order. No, they'll still be screaming bloody murder, and bide their time. They'll just make sure it'll be a lot harder for a Democrat to win next time. See, they don't have to deal with a democrat in power if they just flip the chess board and change the rules of the game.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

29th November 2019, 10:20 AM	#111
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 7,138	Originally Posted by Belz... No, they'll still be screaming bloody murder, and bide their time. They'll just make sure it'll be a lot harder for a Democrat to win next time. See, they don't have to deal with a democrat in power if they just flip the chess board and change the rules of the game. All of which they're already doing. You can't fix scorched earth by being reasonable at it.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 7,138

29th November 2019, 10:24 AM	#112
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,722	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy All of which they're already doing. You can't fix scorched earth by being reasonable at it. Maybe not, but what I'm saying is that Moscow Mitch will not change the rules if it benefits him the next time around. The Democrats have to win big in order to change them back, before it's too late.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

29th November 2019, 10:33 AM	#113
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,052	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy I disagree. I've actually come around to the notion that what we need is an anti-Trump. That's fine if you trust the Dems to get power and just literally never do anything wrong it or never change and never have their version of Trump. I do not.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

29th November 2019, 10:41 AM	#114
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 7,138	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue That's fine if you trust the Dems to get power and just literally never do anything wrong it or never change and never have their version of Trump. I do not. That's more likely to happen than the Trumpers getting tired of winning and voluntarily setting aside their power.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 7,138

29th November 2019, 10:43 AM	#115
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwet Posts: 24,497	Originally Posted by Bob001 I have looked into it. It's not easy. The Canadians don't want us. That's what I found as well. All I wanted was to move myself, my wife, and a couple of million dollars in assets into their country, spend my pension and Social Security on their economy, and not take any jobs away from Canadians. Ain't happening.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.