Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed? Part II.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Stout

Damn....busted.
I made up the bit about owning a propane patio heater, but if I did own one, I'd name it Greta.

In fact, you made up everything you have posted in this thread. Never, ever consider stand-up as a career choice. I suggest telephone sales.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by lionking

If you are tied up in knots about “easy” just ignore that and let me change it to “quickly” which Germany managed to do.

Busted!

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No they haven't. They've announced plans to do it, but they haven't done it yet. We'll have to wait to see if they can actually succeed.

( Thanks Ziggurat )

I'm not tied up in knots about anything, but I wonder about some people and their obsession with a 15 year old activist.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Stout

Damn....busted.
I made up the bit about owning a propane patio heater, but if I did own one, I'd name it Greta.

On my twooo seeeateerr
Sittin' next to my.... propaaaaanneee heataaar!
Eatin' a Fajita!!
Talk'in 'bout Gretaaa!
Wihile watch'n Bluuuueee Peter!
On video tape beeetttaaa!
Probably never will meet ha!!!

I could be a rap star for the environment

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by cullennz

I could be a rap star for the environment

Don't give up your day job.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Don't give up your day job.

Your just angry I didn't mention............

The idiot orange Tweetaaaaaar!

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Steve

I have no issue with any of these ideas as ways to quickly reduce carbon emissions. Implemented quickly they would, of course, destroy the world’s economy. This would inevitably result in millions of deaths so in the long run the earh’s collective population may be no better off than trying to live in a warmer world.

However, as much as I appreciate this sensible post from you, the question was asked of ThisIsTheLife. I would like to see their answer.

I'm not sure it would, ok done overnight it would. We could demand more vacation time, as Americans, so we can travel by rail and ship. Business travel can be replaced via telecommunications. Air travel though only accounts for 2.5% of C02 emissions though.

Livestock: probably a good compromise would be to end artificial feed. Grassland that can support livestock can be used as such, otherwise we're taking net food production down. That would greatly reduced methane emissions.

[Matthew Best]

Interview with Greta Thunberg

– Apparently I am quite bad at giving speeches. Because what people bring up from the speech in New York is me sitting and saying: ”How dare you? You have stolen my dreams and my childhood” and that is not what I want to communicate. I want to communicate facts. And if you leave out what the rest of the speech is all about, if you only take out three sentences, then that makes me sound like an idiot.

I don’t give speeches so that I in some magical way will talk world leaders into realizing that I am right and they are wrong. My long term goal is that the gap between what science is saying and what is actually being done is made so clear that it can no longer be ignored.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Giordano

I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is:

“Ha! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...”

Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. I’m not sure celebrating someone’s alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or...

it’s like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...

Who could have guessed that a teenage girl could trigger so many old men.

It is indeed true we have reached the final stage of global warming denialism. "It's too late to do anything about it anyway".

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Who could have guessed that a teenage girl could trigger so many old men.

It is indeed true we have reached the final stage of global warming denialism. "It's too late to do anything about it anyway".

Or it could just be her methods were a bit crap, which people have been saying

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Busted!



( Thanks Ziggurat )

I'm not tied up in knots about anything, but I wonder about some people and their obsession with a 15 year old activist.

Have you seen the figures for Germany’s coal power generation? It’s plummeting. So quickly and easily in my view, with no major problems as renewables fill the gap.

Australia is heading in the same direction as well as many European countries. How is the US going?

And your use of the word “obsession” is hilarious. The exasperation towards Thunberg shown by you and others in this thread and relentless criticism about how she talks, how she looks and how she presents herself is a direct result of obsession.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by lionking

Have you seen the figures for Germany’s coal power generation? It’s plummeting. So quickly and easily in my view, with no major problems as renewables fill the gap.

Australia is heading in the same direction as well as many European countries. How is the US going?

And your use of the word “obsession” is hilarious. The exasperation towards Thunberg shown by you and others in this thread and relentless criticism about how she talks, how she looks and how she presents herself is a direct result of obsession.

Thunberg isn't German

[lionking]

Originally Posted by cullennz

Thunberg isn't German

What? Are you reading anything other than your own posts? People here are saying that government can’t do anything so Thunberg’s message is pointless (classic denialism by the way). I’m pointing out that Germany is indeed doing something. Indeed a lot.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by lionking

What? Are you reading anything other than your own posts? People here are saying that government can’t do anything so Thunberg’s message is pointless (classic denialism by the way). I’m pointing out that Germany is indeed doing something. Indeed a lot.

Yes. And and it as little to do with anything she does

Lot'sof countries are doing things...Not enough obviously, but she is kind of irrelevant to it,

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by lionking

Have you seen the figures for Germany’s coal power generation? It’s plummeting. So quickly and easily in my view, with no major problems as renewables fill the gap.

Where are you seeing that? The figures I've seen don't show a decrease, but nothing I could categorize as "plummeting". For example:

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/fact...wer-mix-charts

Hard coal useage has dropped a fair amount recently, but lignite (soft coal) has only dropped a little (see 4th graph). And I believe lignite pollutes more than hard coal.

They could have been dropping coal usage much faster if they hadn't shut down all those nuclear plants.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by theprestige

That seems obvious.

Ground all commercial air travel. Essential flights and air freight only.

Cut back all industrial activities across the globe. Establish a central clearing house for emissions and offsets. You want to do something, you sell it to the clearing house. How necessary it is. How many offsets you've lined up.

Start seriously weaning humanity off of livestock protein.

Relax regulations on nuclear power plants. Claim Yucca Mountain and other likely sites under eminent domain, as nuclear waste storage sites.

We have about 8 years to drastically cut emissions across the board, and start to build a sustainable industrial base that the future.

As far as I know, Greta has done **** all to make this happen. Neither has anyone else. So why is Greta such a big deal?

Can you measure how your words change the world?

There are definitely sections of your post that are essential goals soon.

I'll post again a little thing.

1986 I heard about climate change.
1988 First able to do my recycling - of newspapers, in cardboard boxes - in Melbourne.
1989 First given kerbside recycling bins.
etc.

What country do you live in?

It sounds very much like the US. I've seen how angry they get being asked to recycle, or angry at not being able to recycle.



I'd like to mention the concept of Sustainability Transitions.

There are sustainability transition studies. Here's a 2012 review of 540 journal articles.

"new conceptual developments and serve as stepping-stones in the maturation of sustainability transition studies, by linking with the scholarly literatures of management studies, sociology, policy studies, economic geography, and modeling."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...4873331200056X

Every journal article is a transition in itself.

If Thunberg had released your plan as a speech, let alone a manifesto or 10 Year Plan, can you imagine how you would have ridiculed it?

We must still transition along the way.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Interview with Greta Thunberg

– Apparently I am quite bad at giving speeches. Because what people bring up from the speech in New York is me sitting and saying: ”How dare you? You have stolen my dreams and my childhood” and that is not what I want to communicate. I want to communicate facts. And if you leave out what the rest of the speech is all about, if you only take out three sentences, then that makes me sound like an idiot.

I don’t give speeches so that I in some magical way will talk world leaders into realizing that I am right and they are wrong. My long term goal is that the gap between what science is saying and what is actually being done is made so clear that it can no longer be ignored.

Hahaha, that's awesome, I copied that exact section when I read that, then came in here to post it, and that's what you did.

[Orphia Nay]

Let's try and talk with each other.

Instead of talking at each other.

In here, we have more time to think about what we say.

Out of online, it's so hard to control our reactions.

I get how prestige doesn't see the point of conferences. I never made an effort to get to any Amazing Meetings partly because talking to people is pretty scary.

But if you don't move out of your comfort zone, you're surrounded by a fear zone.

[cullennz]

..

[cullennz]

mis-read

[lionking]

Originally Posted by cullennz

mis-read

Interesting that Greta can’t express herself well.....

[wobs]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

... but I wonder about some people and their obsession with a 15 year old activist.

I have also wondered why the likes of Stout, cullennz, theprestige, and yourself have been obsessed with her for so long in this thread. I mean I get why some may find her irritating, but to take it this far is way beyond what one would normally would comment on any social media platform about something you might find irritating.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by wobs

I have also wondered why the likes of Stout, cullennz, theprestige, and yourself have been obsessed with her for so long in this thread. I mean I get why some may find her irritating, but to take it this far is way beyond what one would normally would comment on any social media platform about something you might find irritating.

You and me both.

But apparently I'm a member of her fan club, so my opinion is unimportant.....

[Stout]

Originally Posted by wobs

I have also wondered why the likes of Stout, cullennz, theprestige, and yourself have been obsessed with her for so long in this thread. I mean I get why some may find her irritating, but to take it this far is way beyond what one would normally would comment on any social media platform about something you might find irritating.

Is there some sort of guideline, a number of posts, a thread length, an amount of time that a thread goes on where an issue crosses over into an "obsession" ? If there is, then we got a hella lot of obsessives on this forum.

I don';t know about anybody else but I pretty much only do one thread at a time and if it goes on and on...then so do I, or at least until it gets boring.

This one is a perfect storm of science, partisan politics, religious type thinking and hero worship.

Everybody knows that there's no way, no how that governments are going to being emissions down by 7.6%/year over the next 8-11 years. Everybody knows that these reductions have to happen globally ( except India and China, don't mention those because that's right out of the climate change denier's playbook ) and everybody knows these reductions have to start happening today.

Yet very people are want to willingly participate in making those reductions happen....strange that.

[IsThisTheLife]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Interview with Greta Thunberg

– Apparently I am quite bad at giving speeches. Because what people bring up from the speech in New York is me sitting and saying: ”How dare you? You have stolen my dreams and my childhood” and that is not what I want to communicate. I want to communicate facts. And if you leave out what the rest of the speech is all about, if you only take out three sentences, then that makes me sound like an idiot.

I don’t give speeches so that I in some magical way will talk world leaders into realizing that I am right and they are wrong. My long term goal is that the gap between what science is saying and what is actually being done is made so clear that it can no longer be ignored.

FFS - GT parroting the word "science" over and over doesn't mean she has the first effing clue about actual science beyond what's taught to her in her secondary-school classes. The day it's confirmed that she's got an IQ more than 10 or 20 points above the median for Europids, IOW that she's a certified prodigy/genius, I might begin to take her seriously, but I'm pretty sure we'd have been hearing about it non-stop from day-one were it the case. So as far as I'm concerned, she and the dog/pony show surrounding her are exactly what they seem - a fraud

[Steve]

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

FFS - GT parroting the word "science" over and over doesn't mean she has the first effing clue about actual science beyond what's taught to her in her secondary-school classes. The day it's confirmed that she's got an IQ more than 10 or 20 points above the median for Europids, IOW that she's a certified prodigy/genius, I might begin to take her seriously, but I'm pretty sure we'd have been hearing about it non-stop from day-one were it the case. So as far as I'm concerned, she and the dog/pony show surrounding her are exactly what they seem - a fraud

Well, aren't you just the cutest thing, getting your knickers in such a knot over a know-nothing teenager. Is it really worth all this anger? If you are sure that she and her supporters have nothing useful to say why would you keep listening to any of it? If you ignore her you will likely have a more relaxed and happier life. Hope this little bit of advise works.

[IsThisTheLife]

Originally Posted by Steve

Well, aren't you just the cutest thing, getting your knickers in such a knot over a know-nothing teenager. Is it really worth all this anger? If you are sure that she and her supporters have nothing useful to say why would you keep listening to any of it? If you ignore her you will likely have a more relaxed and happier life. Hope this little bit of advise works.

I keep reading this attempt at a putdown, it seems to be all the fan boys and girls have got.

But it's not as if anyone has a choice about "listening" to the brat - the noise she and they are making is inescapable.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Steve

I have no issue with any of these ideas as ways to quickly reduce carbon emissions. Implemented quickly they would, of course, destroy the world’s economy. This would inevitably result in millions of deaths so in the long run the earh’s collective population may be no better off than trying to live in a warmer world.

However, as much as I appreciate this sensible post from you, the question was asked of ThisIsTheLife. I would like to see their answer.

And I would like to see your answer. What's the actual plan, from the scientists, that meets the hard cap on emissions targets, in the necessary time frame, without destroying the world's economy?

Have you given up on locking in a <1.5 degree increase over the next 100 years? Or is there still something we can do about it? If so, what?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Let's try and talk with each other.

Instead of talking at each other.

Every time I try to talk to you, you ignore me and then lie about my position. I've lost track of the number of times I've corrected you about the nature of my objection to Thunberg's activism, but you keep repeating the same lies about it.

Quote:

<stream of consciousness snipped>

I get how prestige doesn't see the point of conferences. I never made an effort to get to any Amazing Meetings partly because talking to people is pretty scary.

More misrepresentation. I never said I don't see the point of conferences.

I have said that I don't see the point of people flying around the world to meet personally with Greta and help her sail to this particular conference. Nor do I see much point to her being at COP25 at all.

If you see a point, I wish you would stop misrepresenting my position and explain what point you see.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by theprestige

And I would like to see your answer. What's the actual plan, from the scientists, that meets the hard cap on emissions targets, in the necessary time frame, without destroying the world's economy?

Have you given up on locking in a <1.5 degree increase over the next 100 years? Or is there still something we can do about it? If so, what?

OK. You would like me to answer Lionking's question even though it was not directed to me.

Simply, I have no answer. My thoughts will have zero effect on the actions that may be taken.

Now, in response to your questions:

1. There is no actual plan that will work in the available time frame. The types of drastic measures you provide will not be implemented in the short term. Either way there will be a lot of misery spread around.

2. Yes, I have given up on locking in the increase. The things required to accomplish this will not be implemented quickly enough.

3. There is nothing significant I can see that will be done in the necessary time frame.

All that doom and gloom said, I still think the goals are worth working toward and I will offer no criticism of anybody trying to work toward those goals, even if an individual's actions prove to have little effect.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

I keep reading this attempt at a putdown, it seems to be all the fan boys and girls have got.

But it's not as if anyone has a choice about "listening" to the brat - the noise she and they are making is inescapable.

Hey man, I'm trying to lower my communications here to a level the boo boys can comprehend, You know, "taking the piss" as so many here have said they are doing.

If you cannot escape the noise Ms Thunberg and her supporters are making I see that as a good thing.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Steve

OK. You would like me to answer Lionking's question even though it was not directed to me.

Simply, I have no answer. My thoughts will have zero effect on the actions that may be taken.

Now, in response to your questions:

1. There is no actual plan that will work in the available time frame. The types of drastic measures you provide will not be implemented in the short term. Either way there will be a lot of misery spread around.

2. Yes, I have given up on locking in the increase. The things required to accomplish this will not be implemented quickly enough.

3. There is nothing significant I can see that will be done in the necessary time frame.

All that doom and gloom said, I still think the goals are worth working toward and I will offer no criticism of anybody trying to work toward those goals, even if an individual's actions prove to have little effect.

Thank you. This all seems reasonable (though depressing) to me. I think we can probably find a lot to argue about, but broadly speaking we seem to be in agreement on the main points.

So, in the context of this reasonable doom and gloom, do you think it's reasonable to celebrate Thunberg's effect on the problem?

[IsThisTheLife]

"The Youth Climate Movement". Yes, really.

[IsThisTheLife]

Quote:

Using a child (with or without autism) as a literal shield to hide a political agenda behind (and act morally outraged + indignant when someone criticizes or mocks her, whether Trump or someone else) is so scummy, low & pathetic it shouldn't even exist as a political tool. But here we are, where a literal puppet show occurred in the UN with a ranting child got all the mass media to release their usual arsenal of insults & character assassination against people/groups who resist the obvious propaganda.

Rather well put. Ask nicely and I'll post a link to the nazi/white supremacist (OK, maybe just not "progressive") forum I found it on.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by theprestige

And I would like to see your answer. What's the actual plan, from the scientists,

Set a suitable price on Carbon emissions and let market forces deal with it. Free markets are actually really good at this type of thing. If we wanted to minimize the economic pain we should have started 25 years ago, but what’s done is done. The pain economic pain gets worse the longer we wait so we may as well get started.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by lomiller

Set a suitable price on Carbon emissions and let market forces deal with it. Free markets are actually really good at this type of thing. If we wanted to minimize the economic pain we should have started 25 years ago, but what’s done is done. The pain economic pain gets worse the longer we wait so we may as well get started.

Makes sense to me. Minor quibbles: Setting a suitable price normally happens through market forces. If you're going to set a price outside of what the market would set on its own, how do you figure out what a suitable price is?

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

But it's not as if anyone has a choice about "listening" to the brat - the noise she and they are making is inescapable.

And yet she's making no more noise than she was six months ago, and at least one person on this very thread has said they'd never heard of her until this thread appeared.

It seems it is escapable after all - all you have to do is, er, not look at this thread.

[ThatGuy11200]

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

FFS - GT parroting the word "science" over and over doesn't mean she has the first effing clue about actual science beyond what's taught to her in her secondary-school classes. The day it's confirmed that she's got an IQ more than 10 or 20 points above the median for Europids, IOW that she's a certified prodigy/genius, I might begin to take her seriously, but I'm pretty sure we'd have been hearing about it non-stop from day-one were it the case. So as far as I'm concerned, she and the dog/pony show surrounding her are exactly what they seem - a fraud

Most science really isn't that difficult to comprehend. All you need is an interest in it and a good source of information and you can learn as much as you like.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Thank you. This all seems reasonable (though depressing) to me. I think we can probably find a lot to argue about, but broadly speaking we seem to be in agreement on the main points.

So, in the context of this reasonable doom and gloom, do you think it's reasonable to celebrate Thunberg's effect on the problem?

Celebrate is not the word I would use and I do not think it correctly describes her supporters, either here or in real life.

I do think her efforts, and the efforts of anyone else who gets that involved, should be encouraged. I certainly see nothing to be gained by disparaging her or her supporters.

As I said in the post you quoted:

Originally Posted by Steve

All that doom and gloom said, I still think the goals are worth working toward and I will offer no criticism of anybody trying to work toward those goals, even if an individual's actions prove to have little effect.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Originally Posted by Giordano

I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is:

“Ha! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...”

Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. I’m not sure celebrating someone’s alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or...

it’s like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...

I live near the ocean, haven't noticed any difference in sea level since I was a child. When will I start to notice? When will it begin to cause problems? I was told decades ago that I would have already noticed. This is a serious question, by the way. I'm not trying to make a snarky point.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Originally Posted by Stout

When was the last time you saw a Hummer ? Those things went from hero to zero real fast.

Actually I still see them fairly regularly in Los Angeles.