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#41 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts: 1,043
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This is actually a question I'm considering now. I'm an atheist, my wife a Christian, and we live in a (legally secular, but in practical terms) Muslim country. In future, when I am asked by my daughter why mummy doesn't have to cover her hair but her teachers do, just how much of a dick is it going to be acceptable for me to be?
'Should I cover my hair, because all my classmates do'? 'Aina says mummy is going to hell because she eats pork, is she really'? It's also tricky in that if she tells her classmates they're wrong, she'll probably get into a lot of trouble. I did think I might go for the Dawkins 5000 gods answer, but not sure. |
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#42 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 562
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When did christians begin to promote "Thou Shall Lie" ?
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#43 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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That makes absolutely no sense. The "historical and other evidence" for every god is of the same quality. The Christian gods have a huge volume of evidence AGAINST their existence.
No wonder Christians think it necessary to lie about their gods' existence. Are those the only gods whose existence you think needs to be lied about? You think the existence of other gods is more likely? |
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#44 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,545
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If we are now lying to children because "reasons", where does it stop?
"Why do I have to use a wheelchair daddy?" "God hates you." "Why does mommy have cancer daddy?" "God hates your mom, too." |
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Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick. |
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#45 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milky Way, Sol, Earth, Northern Hemisphere, USA, AZ, Scottsdale
Posts: 4,297
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- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games'] |
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#46 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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I would have to disagree, there might not be proof for a lot of people, but there is evidence for the Christian God. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. As stated before, there is enough evidence out there for skeptic Bart Ehrman to say "Jesus certainly existed". And Christians believe Jesus is part of the Godhead (or Trinity) so a Christian can say I have historical evidence for my concept of God.
Also, in my lifetime I have seen countless people on TV (the latest being Kanye West) who have said Christianity has completely changed their lives. So we have some evidence for the power of Christianity. That power supports the existence of the being behind that power. Also there is the evidence that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to be in existence without a resurrection since the resurrection is the central focal point of the religion. How could a small group of scared followers on the outskirts of the Roman empire (whose leader was brutally executed) end up being the official religion of the mighty Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense without a resurrection added into the equation. |
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#47 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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#48 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,023
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#49 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 33,588
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#50 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,130
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#51 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,249
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Fallacy of equivocation. It has been claimed by some non-religious people that a real, human person called Jesus existed, and was involved in a significant part of the actions attributed to the character in the Bible described as Jesus, a part of the Trinity. This is in no sense evidence that the said character was in fact a part of the Trinity.
Selection bias, and non sequitur. There are many Christians, most of whom would presumably claim that Christianity has changed their lives for the better irrespective of whether this is in fact true; those of them who are successful will no doubt attribute their success to Christianity whether or not it has any relevance. And even if this effect were proven - which it is not - there are many other, far more trivial, reasons why a particular set of beliefs might lead to personal success. Survivorship bias, pure and unembellished. All in all, nowhere near strong enough evidence to make me want to lie to my children. Dave |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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#52 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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So we're talking about a mortal, non-divine Jesus then?
Quote:
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#53 |
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Administrator Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Texas (aka SOMD)
Posts: 31,156
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DOC, I think you're missing the point. You presented us with an article stating that non-believers should lie to their kids and promote a deity in times of great stress (death being the example given, but one can assume that it could be argued for other cases). What you have failed to do is satisfactory explain why it necessarily has to be the god of the Christians, other than the fact that it's the belief system (BS) that you happen to adhere to. What if a person followed a different BS? Should a Muslim also use Jehovah/Jesus? A Taoist? A Buddhist? A follower of a cargo cult?
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-Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm |
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#54 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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The apostles (whom according to the bible saw Jesus after the crucifixion) didn't get martyred for stories they knew were invented:
https://www.christianity.com/church/...-11629558.html |
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#55 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,249
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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#56 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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#57 | ||
Winking at the Moon
Deputy Admin
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 13,955
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Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
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#58 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,967
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We can't pretend like the Bible is a bunch of unsupported nonsense isn't at least a factor in whether or not it's some "valid opinion we have a moral duty to introduce our children to."
I'm not telling my (hypothetical) children about vaccine denial, flat eartherism, of 9/11 truther conspiracies in neutral terms and "let them figure out the truth from themselves" either. Parents aren't morally required to "Teach the controversy." |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#59 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,249
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If you want your children to be happy, wouldn't it be equally valid just to tell them that they live in Finland? As long as they believe it, that's as good as it actually being true.
Dave |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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#60 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,558
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"Promote this religion by violating one of its commandments" is a weird strategy.
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#61 |
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Administrator Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Texas (aka SOMD)
Posts: 31,156
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This isn't exactly a "Lying for Jesus" moment though. It's saying that it's good for non-believers to lie for Jesus.
Or at least that's DOC's spin. I'm still trying to figure out why it necessarily has to be the Jehovah/Jesus combo platter for this to work (not that I necessarily agree that it would work, but I'm sure the therapist has her reasonings that I just cannot be arsed to go and research until I get my fundamental question of why it has to be Christianity that's pushed). |
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-Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm |
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#62 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,107
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Re: OP: I hate it when the rapist gives child rearing tips. Time and place, man.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#63 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,558
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He's trying to queue up in two checkout lines at the same time. The article in the OP is strictly utilitarian: Children get benefits from theism, regardless of its truth. But then when questioned on which branch of theism one should pick, DOC states that the one that appears to be the most true* should be preferred. So, should we prioritize the benefits, or the evidence? I'll let DOC decide which line he stands in.
Personally, I find it to be extremely rare that the truth is in conflict with utility. In this case, I can confidently state that Christianity is certainly false, and its evangelical form is morally abhorrent and detrimental to societies the world over. Promoting it to your children can result in lasting harm. Just don't do it. *While this particular point is highly debatable, this is not the thread for that debate. |
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#64 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,997
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We never introduced God to our kids and my wife and I are former Catholics. Their maternal Grandmother made some attempts to get the kids properly churched up but they didn’t take. Probably because they weren’t reinforced at home.
My kids asked tricky questions when they were young. I remember my son telling me his friend said he was going to hell because he didn’t go to Church. I remember saying something to the effect of: “You know we aren’t a religious family. We just think the best thing we can do is try to be good people. We don’t think a God who created us as we are would put us here in this crazy world only to punish us forever for not being perfect. So don’t worry about Hell; just try to be a good person.” So we never really refuted God, we just, when the subject came up, put God into a context that neutralized him...if that makes sense. Not really saying yes or no, just making it a matter they didn’t have to worry about. |
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#65 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,997
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Hello. |
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#66 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,967
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This is just the Third Person Pascal Wager "Oh oh oh well then answer me this you evil, evil, evil atheist.... if there's a person in front of you dying and they want you to comfort them by telling them there's a God waiting for them what do you tell them?" from yet another angle.
It's a trap question. We say no we're cruel, we say it's proof we really lack strength of conviction. And it's trying to manufacter another "Atheists really deep down know they don't believe what they say and change their tune whenever life gets hard" argument like all the "Famous atheist really converted on his death bed really honest" arguments. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#67 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 562
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That makes me wonder, what about telling the child that grandma has reached Nirvana now? Or that her soul has passed into another being but doesn't remember anything about her previous life? Sounds good? Or does it have to be that she is in Paradise and is waiting for us to join her there?
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#68 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,967
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#69 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 12,850
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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#70 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,305
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Man but I get tired of repeating this: the only thing religion is good for is comforting the dying. Would I lie to a dying person to afford him or her solace? Of course I would! So would you!
Would I lie to a child in the April of life on the recommendation of some ******* shrink? Or to please some droning evangelical? Never! And neither would you! Are you there, DOC? |
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Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
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#71 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 562
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No old person who I know would believe for a moment that I was now suddenly a believer in the afterlife. I might tell them to try to send me a message from the beyond on the off-chance that I was wrong, though. Perhaps that would give them a sort of final purpose?
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#72 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,502
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If the parents are Greek atheists, should they lie to their children about the existence of Apollo, Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Athena, Artemis et al?
If the parents are Norse/German atheists, should they lie to their children about the existence Wōden, Odin, Thor, Freya, Rindr, Nerthuz, Hariasa, Loki et al? I think this is the question RoboTimbo is asking, you know, the question you are avoiding. |
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#73 | ||
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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Therapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God.
Belief in the Greek and Roman gods eventually subsided as Christianity took hold in the Roman Empire. So it would seem better for those Greek and Norse parents to go with the Christian God.
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#74 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,502
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You are dodging again. Answer the bloody question! |
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I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
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#75 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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#76 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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#77 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,107
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Not defending the OP, but teaching the belief in a god that is consistent with the contemporary culture's belief should be taken as a given, commonly the Abrahamic god. Invoking Aztec deities smacks of strawmanning.
It's not a bad idea to encourage belief in god to children, much as telling them about Santa is not lying and malicious. These are kids, not doctoral candidates. Like Santa, they will come to conclusions in their own time, and along the way perhaps come to understand metaphors and altruism, before they can intellectually grasp the words or concepts. Mom wasn't lying about a magical Santa, she was encouraging wonder at the unseen, and the revering of goodness and giving and all that. And when they realize it was their parents all along, they might get that parents didn't want credit and reciprocity, just encouraged the innocent joy and awe. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#78 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#79 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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Deleted.
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#80 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,492
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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