Therapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God. - Page 2

gypsyjackson · 2nd January 2020, 04:31 AM

This is actually a question I'm considering now. I'm an atheist, my wife a Christian, and we live in a (legally secular, but in practical terms) Muslim country. In future, when I am asked by my daughter why mummy doesn't have to cover her hair but her teachers do, just how much of a dick is it going to be acceptable for me to be?

'Should I cover my hair, because all my classmates do'?
'Aina says mummy is going to hell because she eats pork, is she really'?

It's also tricky in that if she tells her classmates they're wrong, she'll probably get into a lot of trouble.

I did think I might go for the Dawkins 5000 gods answer, but not sure.

Ulf Nereng · 2nd January 2020, 06:10 AM

When did christians begin to promote "Thou Shall Lie" ?

RoboTimbo · 2nd January 2020, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God.

Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.

That makes absolutely no sense. The "historical and other evidence" for every god is of the same quality. The Christian gods have a huge volume of evidence AGAINST their existence.

No wonder Christians think it necessary to lie about their gods' existence. Are those the only gods whose existence you think needs to be lied about? You think the existence of other gods is more likely?

DuvalHMFIC · 2nd January 2020, 06:23 AM

If we are now lying to children because "reasons", where does it stop?

"Why do I have to use a wheelchair daddy?"

"God hates you."

"Why does mommy have cancer daddy?"

"God hates your mom, too."

The Greater Fool · 2nd January 2020, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

What other things do you recommend lying about DOC?

Your wife's weight. Trust me.

DOC · 2nd January 2020, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Evidence for existence of any god you could name is exactly the same - zero. Christian god included.

I would have to disagree, there might not be proof for a lot of people, but there is evidence for the Christian God. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. As stated before, there is enough evidence out there for skeptic Bart Ehrman to say "Jesus certainly existed". And Christians believe Jesus is part of the Godhead (or Trinity) so a Christian can say I have historical evidence for my concept of God.

Also, in my lifetime I have seen countless people on TV (the latest being Kanye West) who have said Christianity has completely changed their lives. So we have some evidence for the power of Christianity. That power supports the existence of the being behind that power.

Also there is the evidence that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to be in existence without a resurrection since the resurrection is the central focal point of the religion. How could a small group of scared followers on the outskirts of the Roman empire (whose leader was brutally executed) end up being the official religion of the mighty Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense without a resurrection added into the equation.

DOC · 2nd January 2020, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

When did christians begin to promote "Thou Shall Lie" ?

Actually the psychotherapist in the article was Jewish.

zooterkin · 2nd January 2020, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Actually the psychotherapist in the article was Jewish.

You’re promoting it, too.

Mojo · 2nd January 2020, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Actually the psychotherapist in the article was Jewish.

I thought you said they were a psychoanalyst.

Darat · 2nd January 2020, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

When did christians begin to promote "Thou Shall Lie" ?

About 1990 years ago....

Dave Rogers · 2nd January 2020, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

As stated before, there is enough evidence out there for skeptic Bart Ehrman to say "Jesus certainly existed". And Christians believe Jesus is part of the Godhead (or Trinity) so a Christian can say I have historical evidence for my concept of God.

Fallacy of equivocation. It has been claimed by some non-religious people that a real, human person called Jesus existed, and was involved in a significant part of the actions attributed to the character in the Bible described as Jesus, a part of the Trinity. This is in no sense evidence that the said character was in fact a part of the Trinity.

Originally Posted by DOC

Also, in my lifetime I have seen countless people on TV (the latest being Kanye West) who have said Christianity has completely changed their lives. So we have some evidence for the power of Christianity. That power supports the existence of the being behind that power.

Selection bias, and non sequitur. There are many Christians, most of whom would presumably claim that Christianity has changed their lives for the better irrespective of whether this is in fact true; those of them who are successful will no doubt attribute their success to Christianity whether or not it has any relevance. And even if this effect were proven - which it is not - there are many other, far more trivial, reasons why a particular set of beliefs might lead to personal success.

Originally Posted by DOC

Also there is the evidence that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to be in existence without a resurrection since the resurrection is the central focal point of the religion. How could a small group of scared followers on the outskirts of the Roman empire (whose leader was brutally executed) end up being the official religion of the mighty Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense without a resurrection added into the equation.

Survivorship bias, pure and unembellished.

All in all, nowhere near strong enough evidence to make me want to lie to my children.

Dave

RoboTimbo · 2nd January 2020, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I would have to disagree, there might not be proof for a lot of people, but there is evidence for the Christian God. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. As stated before, there is enough evidence out there for skeptic Bart Ehrman to say "Jesus certainly existed".

So we're talking about a mortal, non-divine Jesus then?

Quote:

And Christians believe Jesus is part of the Godhead (or Trinity) so a Christian can say I have historical evidence for my concept of God.

Stay on topic, DOC. This isn't about which gods Christians invent.

Quote:

Also, in my lifetime I have seen countless people on TV (the latest being Kanye West) who have said Christianity has completely changed their lives. So we have some evidence for the power of Christianity. That power supports the existence of the being behind that power.

No, it doesn't at all. You'd have to speak to a billion Chinese to figure out why. Again, stay on topic.

Quote:

Also there is the evidence that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to be in existence without a resurrection since the resurrection is the central focal point of the religion. How could a small group of scared followers on the outskirts of the Roman empire (whose leader was brutally executed) end up being the official religion of the mighty Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense without a resurrection added into the equation.

Well, if you consider that the entire resurrection was invented, it makes sense that Christianity was founded on invented stories and plagiarized fables. Certainly not the kind of gods I'd want to lie about the existence of. I don't see how Christians can stomach lying about them.

kmortis · 2nd January 2020, 07:32 AM

DOC, I think you're missing the point. You presented us with an article stating that non-believers should lie to their kids and promote a deity in times of great stress (death being the example given, but one can assume that it could be argued for other cases). What you have failed to do is satisfactory explain why it necessarily has to be the god of the Christians, other than the fact that it's the belief system (BS) that you happen to adhere to. What if a person followed a different BS? Should a Muslim also use Jehovah/Jesus? A Taoist? A Buddhist? A follower of a cargo cult?

DOC · 2nd January 2020, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

...Well, if you consider that the entire resurrection was invented, it makes sense that Christianity was founded on invented stories and plagiarized fables...

The apostles (whom according to the bible saw Jesus after the crucifixion) didn't get martyred for stories they knew were invented:

https://www.christianity.com/church/...-11629558.html

Dave Rogers · 2nd January 2020, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The apostles (whom according to the bible saw Jesus after the crucifixion) didn't get martyred for stories they knew were invented:

You could say the same about the Branch Davidians.

Dave

RoboTimbo · 2nd January 2020, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The apostles (whom according to the bible saw Jesus after the crucifixion) didn't get martyred for stories they knew were invented:

Originally Posted by DOC

Argument by Assertion.

Neither did the terrorist hijackers who flew planes into the WTC.

Agatha · 2nd January 2020, 08:30 AM

This thread is about the suggestion that non-Christians should lie to their children, not about evidence for the veracity of the events recounted in the Bible. Please stay focused if you can, or take the discussion of evidence for Christianity to another thread if you cannot.

Posted By:Agatha

JoeMorgue · 2nd January 2020, 08:34 AM

We can't pretend like the Bible is a bunch of unsupported nonsense isn't at least a factor in whether or not it's some "valid opinion we have a moral duty to introduce our children to."

I'm not telling my (hypothetical) children about vaccine denial, flat eartherism, of 9/11 truther conspiracies in neutral terms and "let them figure out the truth from themselves" either.

Parents aren't morally required to "Teach the controversy."

Dave Rogers · 2nd January 2020, 08:40 AM

If you want your children to be happy, wouldn't it be equally valid just to tell them that they live in Finland? As long as they believe it, that's as good as it actually being true.

Dave

I Am The Scum · 2nd January 2020, 07:50 PM

"Promote this religion by violating one of its commandments" is a weird strategy.

kmortis · 3rd January 2020, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

"Promote this religion by violating one of its commandments" is a weird strategy.

This isn't exactly a "Lying for Jesus" moment though. It's saying that it's good for non-believers to lie for Jesus.

Or at least that's DOC's spin. I'm still trying to figure out why it necessarily has to be the Jehovah/Jesus combo platter for this to work (not that I necessarily agree that it would work, but I'm sure the therapist has her reasonings that I just cannot be arsed to go and research until I get my fundamental question of why it has to be Christianity that's pushed).

Thermal · 3rd January 2020, 07:26 AM

Re: OP: I hate it when the rapist gives child rearing tips. Time and place, man.

I Am The Scum · 3rd January 2020, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by kmortis

This isn't exactly a "Lying for Jesus" moment though. It's saying that it's good for non-believers to lie for Jesus.

Or at least that's DOC's spin. I'm still trying to figure out why it necessarily has to be the Jehovah/Jesus combo platter for this to work (not that I necessarily agree that it would work, but I'm sure the therapist has her reasonings that I just cannot be arsed to go and research until I get my fundamental question of why it has to be Christianity that's pushed).

He's trying to queue up in two checkout lines at the same time. The article in the OP is strictly utilitarian: Children get benefits from theism, regardless of its truth. But then when questioned on which branch of theism one should pick, DOC states that the one that appears to be the most true* should be preferred. So, should we prioritize the benefits, or the evidence? I'll let DOC decide which line he stands in.

Personally, I find it to be extremely rare that the truth is in conflict with utility. In this case, I can confidently state that Christianity is certainly false, and its evangelical form is morally abhorrent and detrimental to societies the world over. Promoting it to your children can result in lasting harm. Just don't do it.

*While this particular point is highly debatable, this is not the thread for that debate.

xjx388 · 3rd January 2020, 09:39 AM

We never introduced God to our kids and my wife and I are former Catholics. Their maternal Grandmother made some attempts to get the kids properly churched up but they didn’t take. Probably because they weren’t reinforced at home.

My kids asked tricky questions when they were young. I remember my son telling me his friend said he was going to hell because he didn’t go to Church. I remember saying something to the effect of: “You know we aren’t a religious family. We just think the best thing we can do is try to be good people. We don’t think a God who created us as we are would put us here in this crazy world only to punish us forever for not being perfect. So don’t worry about Hell; just try to be a good person.”

So we never really refuted God, we just, when the subject came up, put God into a context that neutralized him...if that makes sense. Not really saying yes or no, just making it a matter they didn’t have to worry about.

xjx388 · 3rd January 2020, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

He's trying to queue up in two checkout lines at the same time. The article in the OP is strictly utilitarian: Children get benefits from theism, regardless of its truth. But then when questioned on which branch of theism one should pick, DOC states that the one that appears to be the most true* should be preferred. So, should we prioritize the benefits, or the evidence? I'll let DOC decide which line he stands in.

Personally, I find it to be extremely rare that the truth is in conflict with utility. In this case, I can confidently state that Christianity is certainly false, and its evangelical form is morally abhorrent and detrimental to societies the world over. Promoting it to your children can result in lasting harm. Just don't do it.

*While this particular point is highly debatable, this is not the thread for that debate.

The religion that is most true should be obvious: Xjxianism. I am the living embodiment of God, talking to you now. What more proof could you need?

JoeMorgue · 3rd January 2020, 09:52 AM

This is just the Third Person Pascal Wager "Oh oh oh well then answer me this you evil, evil, evil atheist.... if there's a person in front of you dying and they want you to comfort them by telling them there's a God waiting for them what do you tell them?" from yet another angle.

It's a trap question. We say no we're cruel, we say it's proof we really lack strength of conviction. And it's trying to manufacter another "Atheists really deep down know they don't believe what they say and change their tune whenever life gets hard" argument like all the "Famous atheist really converted on his death bed really honest" arguments.

Ulf Nereng · 3rd January 2020, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by kmortis

This isn't exactly a "Lying for Jesus" moment though. It's saying that it's good for non-believers to lie for Jesus.

Or at least that's DOC's spin. I'm still trying to figure out why it necessarily has to be the Jehovah/Jesus combo platter for this to work (not that I necessarily agree that it would work, but I'm sure the therapist has her reasonings that I just cannot be arsed to go and research until I get my fundamental question of why it has to be Christianity that's pushed).

That makes me wonder, what about telling the child that grandma has reached Nirvana now? Or that her soul has passed into another being but doesn't remember anything about her previous life? Sounds good? Or does it have to be that she is in Paradise and is waiting for us to join her there?

JoeMorgue · 3rd January 2020, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

That makes me wonder, what about telling the child that grandma has reached Nirvana now? Or that her soul has passed into another being but doesn't remember anything about her previous life? Sounds good? Or does it have to be that she is in Paradise and is waiting for us to join her there?

Don't waste your breathe. People who demand atheists entertain hypothetical scenarios where they are "forced" to promote religion never seem to interested in entertaining hypotheticals where they have to promote a mythology not their own.

Pixel42 · 3rd January 2020, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

That makes me wonder, what about telling the child that grandma has reached Nirvana now? Or that her soul has passed into another being but doesn't remember anything about her previous life? Sounds good? Or does it have to be that she is in Paradise and is waiting for us to join her there?

AIUI Christianity teaches that grandma's mouldering in her grave and will continue to do so until the second coming, when she'll be resurrected right here on earth. Or something.

sackett · 3rd January 2020, 11:37 AM

Man but I get tired of repeating this: the only thing religion is good for is comforting the dying. Would I lie to a dying person to afford him or her solace? Of course I would! So would you!

Would I lie to a child in the April of life on the recommendation of some ******* shrink? Or to please some droning evangelical? Never! And neither would you!

Are you there, DOC?

Ulf Nereng · 3rd January 2020, 12:04 PM

No old person who I know would believe for a moment that I was now suddenly a believer in the afterlife. I might tell them to try to send me a message from the beyond on the off-chance that I was wrong, though. Perhaps that would give them a sort of final purpose?

smartcooky · 3rd January 2020, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Quote: ...Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children?

But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God, so even though the parents might believe they were lying, there is some evidence that what they said was truthful if they were talking about the Christian God. The parents and many others believe they don't have proof he is God but there is some evidence he is God. I've talked about that evidence in several threads.

If the parents are Greek atheists, should they lie to their children about the existence of Apollo, Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Athena, Artemis et al?

If the parents are Norse/German atheists, should they lie to their children about the existence Wōden, Odin, Thor, Freya, Rindr, Nerthuz, Hariasa, Loki et al?

I think this is the question RoboTimbo is asking, you know, the question you are avoiding.

DOC · 4th January 2020, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

If the parents are Greek atheists, should they lie to their children about the existence of Apollo, Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Athena, Artemis et al?

If the parents are Norse/German atheists, should they lie to their children about the existence Wōden, Odin, Thor, Freya, Rindr, Nerthuz, Hariasa, Loki et al?

I think this is the question RoboTimbo is asking, you know, the question you are avoiding.

Belief in the Greek and Roman gods eventually subsided as Christianity took hold in the Roman Empire. So it would seem better for those Greek and Norse parents to go with the Christian God.

Edited by Agatha:

This is an edited copy of the original post sent to AAH. On request, I have copied the post back into the thread with the off-topic material removed.

smartcooky · 4th January 2020, 04:02 AM

Edited by Agatha:

removed offtopic material sent to AAH

You are dodging again. Answer the bloody question!

DOC · 4th January 2020, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

You are dodging again. Answer the bloody question!

I already did in post 34.

RoboTimbo · 4th January 2020, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I already did in post 34.

Refuted in posts 35, 36, 40, 43 and more. Answer the question.

Thermal · 4th January 2020, 07:16 AM

Not defending the OP, but teaching the belief in a god that is consistent with the contemporary culture's belief should be taken as a given, commonly the Abrahamic god. Invoking Aztec deities smacks of strawmanning.

It's not a bad idea to encourage belief in god to children, much as telling them about Santa is not lying and malicious. These are kids, not doctoral candidates. Like Santa, they will come to conclusions in their own time, and along the way perhaps come to understand metaphors and altruism, before they can intellectually grasp the words or concepts. Mom wasn't lying about a magical Santa, she was encouraging wonder at the unseen, and the revering of goodness and giving and all that. And when they realize it was their parents all along, they might get that parents didn't want credit and reciprocity, just encouraged the innocent joy and awe.

Belz... · 4th January 2020, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The therapist in the below cited article believes that if you don't believe in God or heaven you should lie to your kids (about God) to promote better mental health.

He might be right. Most humans seem to have an emotional need for supernatural beliefs.

That's why my children will worship the Outer Gods and the Great Old Ones.

Belz... · 4th January 2020, 07:22 AM

Deleted.

catsmate · 4th January 2020, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

When did christians begin to promote "Thou Shall Lie" ?

When the truth started getting in their way, i.e. a soon as there was money to be made, power to be grabbed and a hierarchy to be protected.

2nd January 2020, 04:31 AM	#41
gypsyjackson Muse Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 508	This is actually a question I'm considering now. I'm an atheist, my wife a Christian, and we live in a (legally secular, but in practical terms) Muslim country. In future, when I am asked by my daughter why mummy doesn't have to cover her hair but her teachers do, just how much of a dick is it going to be acceptable for me to be? 'Should I cover my hair, because all my classmates do'? 'Aina says mummy is going to hell because she eats pork, is she really'? It's also tricky in that if she tells her classmates they're wrong, she'll probably get into a lot of trouble. I did think I might go for the Dawkins 5000 gods answer, but not sure.
gypsyjackson Muse Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 508

2nd January 2020, 06:23 AM	#44
DuvalHMFIC Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,465	If we are now lying to children because "reasons", where does it stop? "Why do I have to use a wheelchair daddy?" "God hates you." "Why does mommy have cancer daddy?" "God hates your mom, too."
	__________________ Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.

2nd January 2020, 06:34 AM	#45
The Greater Fool Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,134	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy What other things do you recommend lying about DOC? Your wife's weight. Trust me.
	__________________ - "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']

2nd January 2020, 06:50 AM	#46
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by Steve Evidence for existence of any god you could name is exactly the same - zero. Christian god included. I would have to disagree, there might not be proof for a lot of people, but there is evidence for the Christian God. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. As stated before, there is enough evidence out there for skeptic Bart Ehrman to say "Jesus certainly existed". And Christians believe Jesus is part of the Godhead (or Trinity) so a Christian can say I have historical evidence for my concept of God. Also, in my lifetime I have seen countless people on TV (the latest being Kanye West) who have said Christianity has completely changed their lives. So we have some evidence for the power of Christianity. That power supports the existence of the being behind that power. Also there is the evidence that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to be in existence without a resurrection since the resurrection is the central focal point of the religion. How could a small group of scared followers on the outskirts of the Roman empire (whose leader was brutally executed) end up being the official religion of the mighty Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense without a resurrection added into the equation.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 2nd January 2020 at 07:03 AM.

2nd January 2020, 06:57 AM	#47
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng When did christians begin to promote "Thou Shall Lie" ? Actually the psychotherapist in the article was Jewish.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

2nd January 2020, 06:10 AM	#42
Ulf Nereng Student Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 42	When did christians begin to promote "Thou Shall Lie" ?

2nd January 2020, 06:13 AM	#43
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God. Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it. That makes absolutely no sense. The "historical and other evidence" for every god is of the same quality. The Christian gods have a huge volume of evidence AGAINST their existence. No wonder Christians think it necessary to lie about their gods' existence. Are those the only gods whose existence you think needs to be lied about? You think the existence of other gods is more likely?

2nd January 2020, 07:03 AM	#48
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 44,383	Originally Posted by DOC Actually the psychotherapist in the article was Jewish. You’re promoting it, too.
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2nd January 2020, 07:04 AM	#49
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 31,690	Originally Posted by DOC Actually the psychotherapist in the article was Jewish. I thought you said they were a psychoanalyst.
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2nd January 2020, 07:14 AM	#50
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 89,387	Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng When did christians begin to promote "Thou Shall Lie" ? About 1990 years ago....
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

2nd January 2020, 07:16 AM	#51
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 30,134	Originally Posted by DOC As stated before, there is enough evidence out there for skeptic Bart Ehrman to say "Jesus certainly existed". And Christians believe Jesus is part of the Godhead (or Trinity) so a Christian can say I have historical evidence for my concept of God. Fallacy of equivocation. It has been claimed by some non-religious people that a real, human person called Jesus existed, and was involved in a significant part of the actions attributed to the character in the Bible described as Jesus, a part of the Trinity. This is in no sense evidence that the said character was in fact a part of the Trinity. Originally Posted by DOC Also, in my lifetime I have seen countless people on TV (the latest being Kanye West) who have said Christianity has completely changed their lives. So we have some evidence for the power of Christianity. That power supports the existence of the being behind that power. Selection bias, and non sequitur. There are many Christians, most of whom would presumably claim that Christianity has changed their lives for the better irrespective of whether this is in fact true; those of them who are successful will no doubt attribute their success to Christianity whether or not it has any relevance. And even if this effect were proven - which it is not - there are many other, far more trivial, reasons why a particular set of beliefs might lead to personal success. Originally Posted by DOC Also there is the evidence that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to be in existence without a resurrection since the resurrection is the central focal point of the religion. How could a small group of scared followers on the outskirts of the Roman empire (whose leader was brutally executed) end up being the official religion of the mighty Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense without a resurrection added into the equation. Survivorship bias, pure and unembellished. All in all, nowhere near strong enough evidence to make me want to lie to my children. Dave
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2nd January 2020, 07:28 AM	#52
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC I would have to disagree, there might not be proof for a lot of people, but there is evidence for the Christian God. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. As stated before, there is enough evidence out there for skeptic Bart Ehrman to say "Jesus certainly existed". So we're talking about a mortal, non-divine Jesus then? Quote: And Christians believe Jesus is part of the Godhead (or Trinity) so a Christian can say I have historical evidence for my concept of God. Stay on topic, DOC. This isn't about which gods Christians invent. Quote: Also, in my lifetime I have seen countless people on TV (the latest being Kanye West) who have said Christianity has completely changed their lives. So we have some evidence for the power of Christianity. That power supports the existence of the being behind that power. No, it doesn't at all. You'd have to speak to a billion Chinese to figure out why. Again, stay on topic. Quote: Also there is the evidence that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to be in existence without a resurrection since the resurrection is the central focal point of the religion. How could a small group of scared followers on the outskirts of the Roman empire (whose leader was brutally executed) end up being the official religion of the mighty Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense without a resurrection added into the equation. Well, if you consider that the entire resurrection was invented, it makes sense that Christianity was founded on invented stories and plagiarized fables. Certainly not the kind of gods I'd want to lie about the existence of. I don't see how Christians can stomach lying about them.

2nd January 2020, 07:32 AM	#53
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Administrator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas (aka SOMD) Posts: 31,032	DOC, I think you're missing the point. You presented us with an article stating that non-believers should lie to their kids and promote a deity in times of great stress (death being the example given, but one can assume that it could be argued for other cases). What you have failed to do is satisfactory explain why it necessarily has to be the god of the Christians, other than the fact that it's the belief system (BS) that you happen to adhere to. What if a person followed a different BS? Should a Muslim also use Jehovah/Jesus? A Taoist? A Buddhist? A follower of a cargo cult?
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2nd January 2020, 08:10 AM	#54
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo ...Well, if you consider that the entire resurrection was invented, it makes sense that Christianity was founded on invented stories and plagiarized fables... The apostles (whom according to the bible saw Jesus after the crucifixion) didn't get martyred for stories they knew were invented: https://www.christianity.com/church/...-11629558.html
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

2nd January 2020, 08:17 AM	#55
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 30,134	Originally Posted by DOC The apostles (whom according to the bible saw Jesus after the crucifixion) didn't get martyred for stories they knew were invented: You could say the same about the Branch Davidians. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

2nd January 2020, 08:24 AM	#56
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC The apostles (whom according to the bible saw Jesus after the crucifixion) didn't get martyred for stories they knew were invented: Originally Posted by DOC Argument by Assertion. Neither did the terrorist hijackers who flew planes into the WTC.

2nd January 2020, 08:34 AM	#58
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,204	We can't pretend like the Bible is a bunch of unsupported nonsense isn't at least a factor in whether or not it's some "valid opinion we have a moral duty to introduce our children to." I'm not telling my (hypothetical) children about vaccine denial, flat eartherism, of 9/11 truther conspiracies in neutral terms and "let them figure out the truth from themselves" either. Parents aren't morally required to "Teach the controversy."
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC Last edited by JoeMorgue; 2nd January 2020 at 08:43 AM.

2nd January 2020, 08:40 AM	#59
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 30,134	If you want your children to be happy, wouldn't it be equally valid just to tell them that they live in Finland? As long as they believe it, that's as good as it actually being true. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

2nd January 2020, 07:50 PM	#60
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4,208	"Promote this religion by violating one of its commandments" is a weird strategy.

3rd January 2020, 07:16 AM	#61
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Administrator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas (aka SOMD) Posts: 31,032	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum "Promote this religion by violating one of its commandments" is a weird strategy. This isn't exactly a "Lying for Jesus" moment though. It's saying that it's good for non-believers to lie for Jesus. Or at least that's DOC's spin. I'm still trying to figure out why it necessarily has to be the Jehovah/Jesus combo platter for this to work (not that I necessarily agree that it would work, but I'm sure the therapist has her reasonings that I just cannot be arsed to go and research until I get my fundamental question of why it has to be Christianity that's pushed).
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

3rd January 2020, 07:26 AM	#62
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,374	Re: OP: I hate it when the rapist gives child rearing tips. Time and place, man.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi

3rd January 2020, 09:13 AM	#63
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4,208	Originally Posted by kmortis This isn't exactly a "Lying for Jesus" moment though. It's saying that it's good for non-believers to lie for Jesus. Or at least that's DOC's spin. I'm still trying to figure out why it necessarily has to be the Jehovah/Jesus combo platter for this to work (not that I necessarily agree that it would work, but I'm sure the therapist has her reasonings that I just cannot be arsed to go and research until I get my fundamental question of why it has to be Christianity that's pushed). He's trying to queue up in two checkout lines at the same time. The article in the OP is strictly utilitarian: Children get benefits from theism, regardless of its truth. But then when questioned on which branch of theism one should pick, DOC states that the one that appears to be the most true* should be preferred. So, should we prioritize the benefits, or the evidence? I'll let DOC decide which line he stands in. Personally, I find it to be extremely rare that the truth is in conflict with utility. In this case, I can confidently state that Christianity is certainly false, and its evangelical form is morally abhorrent and detrimental to societies the world over. Promoting it to your children can result in lasting harm. Just don't do it. *While this particular point is highly debatable, this is not the thread for that debate.

3rd January 2020, 09:39 AM	#64
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,684	We never introduced God to our kids and my wife and I are former Catholics. Their maternal Grandmother made some attempts to get the kids properly churched up but they didn’t take. Probably because they weren’t reinforced at home. My kids asked tricky questions when they were young. I remember my son telling me his friend said he was going to hell because he didn’t go to Church. I remember saying something to the effect of: “You know we aren’t a religious family. We just think the best thing we can do is try to be good people. We don’t think a God who created us as we are would put us here in this crazy world only to punish us forever for not being perfect. So don’t worry about Hell; just try to be a good person.” So we never really refuted God, we just, when the subject came up, put God into a context that neutralized him...if that makes sense. Not really saying yes or no, just making it a matter they didn’t have to worry about.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,684	__________________ Hello.

3rd January 2020, 09:42 AM	#65
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,684	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum He's trying to queue up in two checkout lines at the same time. The article in the OP is strictly utilitarian: Children get benefits from theism, regardless of its truth. But then when questioned on which branch of theism one should pick, DOC states that the one that appears to be the most true* should be preferred. So, should we prioritize the benefits, or the evidence? I'll let DOC decide which line he stands in. Personally, I find it to be extremely rare that the truth is in conflict with utility. In this case, I can confidently state that Christianity is certainly false, and its evangelical form is morally abhorrent and detrimental to societies the world over. Promoting it to your children can result in lasting harm. Just don't do it. *While this particular point is highly debatable, this is not the thread for that debate. The religion that is most true should be obvious: Xjxianism. I am the living embodiment of God, talking to you now. What more proof could you need?
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,684	__________________ Hello.

3rd January 2020, 09:52 AM	#66
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,204	This is just the Third Person Pascal Wager "Oh oh oh well then answer me this you evil, evil, evil atheist.... if there's a person in front of you dying and they want you to comfort them by telling them there's a God waiting for them what do you tell them?" from yet another angle. It's a trap question. We say no we're cruel, we say it's proof we really lack strength of conviction. And it's trying to manufacter another "Atheists really deep down know they don't believe what they say and change their tune whenever life gets hard" argument like all the "Famous atheist really converted on his death bed really honest" arguments.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

3rd January 2020, 09:55 AM	#67
Ulf Nereng Student Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 42	Originally Posted by kmortis This isn't exactly a "Lying for Jesus" moment though. It's saying that it's good for non-believers to lie for Jesus. Or at least that's DOC's spin. I'm still trying to figure out why it necessarily has to be the Jehovah/Jesus combo platter for this to work (not that I necessarily agree that it would work, but I'm sure the therapist has her reasonings that I just cannot be arsed to go and research until I get my fundamental question of why it has to be Christianity that's pushed). That makes me wonder, what about telling the child that grandma has reached Nirvana now? Or that her soul has passed into another being but doesn't remember anything about her previous life? Sounds good? Or does it have to be that she is in Paradise and is waiting for us to join her there?

3rd January 2020, 09:58 AM	#68
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,204	Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng That makes me wonder, what about telling the child that grandma has reached Nirvana now? Or that her soul has passed into another being but doesn't remember anything about her previous life? Sounds good? Or does it have to be that she is in Paradise and is waiting for us to join her there? Don't waste your breathe. People who demand atheists entertain hypothetical scenarios where they are "forced" to promote religion never seem to interested in entertaining hypotheticals where they have to promote a mythology not their own.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

3rd January 2020, 10:32 AM	#69
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 11,501	Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng That makes me wonder, what about telling the child that grandma has reached Nirvana now? Or that her soul has passed into another being but doesn't remember anything about her previous life? Sounds good? Or does it have to be that she is in Paradise and is waiting for us to join her there? AIUI Christianity teaches that grandma's mouldering in her grave and will continue to do so until the second coming, when she'll be resurrected right here on earth. Or something.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

3rd January 2020, 11:37 AM	#70
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 5,830	Man but I get tired of repeating this: the only thing religion is good for is comforting the dying. Would I lie to a dying person to afford him or her solace? Of course I would! So would you! Would I lie to a child in the April of life on the recommendation of some ******* shrink? Or to please some droning evangelical? Never! And neither would you! Are you there, DOC?
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

3rd January 2020, 12:04 PM	#71
Ulf Nereng Student Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 42	No old person who I know would believe for a moment that I was now suddenly a believer in the afterlife. I might tell them to try to send me a message from the beyond on the off-chance that I was wrong, though. Perhaps that would give them a sort of final purpose?

3rd January 2020, 12:33 PM	#72
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 13,206	Originally Posted by DOC Quote: ...Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children? But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God, so even though the parents might believe they were lying, there is some evidence that what they said was truthful if they were talking about the Christian God. The parents and many others believe they don't have proof he is God but there is some evidence he is God. I've talked about that evidence in several threads. If the parents are Greek atheists, should they lie to their children about the existence of Apollo, Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Athena, Artemis et al? If the parents are Norse/German atheists, should they lie to their children about the existence Wōden, Odin, Thor, Freya, Rindr, Nerthuz, Hariasa, Loki et al? I think this is the question RoboTimbo is asking, you know, the question you are avoiding.
	__________________ "You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! Last edited by zooterkin; 3rd January 2020 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Broken quote tags

4th January 2020, 04:52 AM	#75
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by smartcooky You are dodging again. Answer the bloody question! I already did in post 34.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

4th January 2020, 06:29 AM	#76
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC I already did in post 34. Refuted in posts 35, 36, 40, 43 and more. Answer the question.

4th January 2020, 07:16 AM	#77
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,374	Not defending the OP, but teaching the belief in a god that is consistent with the contemporary culture's belief should be taken as a given, commonly the Abrahamic god. Invoking Aztec deities smacks of strawmanning. It's not a bad idea to encourage belief in god to children, much as telling them about Santa is not lying and malicious. These are kids, not doctoral candidates. Like Santa, they will come to conclusions in their own time, and along the way perhaps come to understand metaphors and altruism, before they can intellectually grasp the words or concepts. Mom wasn't lying about a magical Santa, she was encouraging wonder at the unseen, and the revering of goodness and giving and all that. And when they realize it was their parents all along, they might get that parents didn't want credit and reciprocity, just encouraged the innocent joy and awe.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi

4th January 2020, 07:18 AM	#78
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,828	Originally Posted by DOC The therapist in the below cited article believes that if you don't believe in God or heaven you should lie to your kids (about God) to promote better mental health. He might be right. Most humans seem to have an emotional need for supernatural beliefs. That's why my children will worship the Outer Gods and the Great Old Ones.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward