Therapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God. - Page 5

DOC · 8th January 2020, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

I was one of the two. You'd have to search my posts in one of the continuation "evidence for why we know the writers of the new testament told the truth" (sic) threads.

ETA - on topic:
Actually, one of the contributing factors was when I caught myself telling a child how "when people are still talking about you and quoting you 2,000 years later, then maybe we can discuss how Jesus was wrong" or something like that. My skeptical brain knew that this was a fallacy, and DOCs threads were he first time I had applied skepticism to the New Testament since I had been a kid in Sunday School. So I don't believe in lying to children about God, because they might learn bad logic in the process, since religion only has apologetics to defend it.

EEEETTTTTTAAAAA - try this.

Well since you brought in a past post of yours, I should be allowed to give the response I made to that post:

Quote:

If what you say is true, don't blame me, blame Norman Geisler the author of over 60 apologetic books. And you can also blame apologist (and former skeptic) Ralph Muncaster author of the 605 page book "Examine the Evidence". And also Josh Mcdowell author of many apologetic and Christian books. For the most part I'm just the messenger of their books and some other websites.

And if what you say is true, can you tell me some of the exact posts that have made you lose your faith in God.

sackett · 8th January 2020, 10:39 PM

Muhammad said he was just a messenger. A messenger from an angel, who spoke for Great God Almighty.

But DOC, oh DOC. To be the messenger of Muncaster and McDowell.

dann · 9th January 2020, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist.

You can describe Phil Zuckerman as an atheist, an agnostic or a cultural Christian. Never mind, he's one of the best. You should read his book Society without God (GoodReads), which is about secularization in my part of the world.
And please don't take his words out of context. You make him sound as if he believes in reincarnation!

Quote:

“I’ve spent a long time thinking about that question. I’ve read a lot about it. I’ve studied many religions. And my own conclusion is that there is no God out there. It’s just us, floating on this planet in space, creating meaning through the relationships we have, the causes we take up, the art we produce, the suffering we alleviate, and the awe and wonder we experience being alive.”
(...)
“No one really knows what happens after we die. Maybe we live on in some other realm that we can’t even fathom. Maybe we become one with the stars. Maybe we float in the clouds. Maybe some part of us is reborn in another life-form. We just don’t know. It is a mystery.”
“Death is like a deep sleep that you never wake up from. There is no suffering when you are dead. It is just like a silent, peaceful nothingness. It is so sad that Grandpa died, and we will always miss him, and so we need to do things to remember him and keep him alive in our hearts.”
“Everything that lives also dies. Everything. Flowers, ants, dolphins, and people. Some people think that it is the painful finality of death that makes life have meaning and prods us to live as fully as we can while we can.”
Should You Lie to Your Kids About Believing in God? (Psychology Today, Dec. 30, 2019)

We do float in the skies! (And we get up there much faster if our remains are burned.) Parts of us do appear in other life-forms, our atoms and molecules are recycled. (It's a stretch to call it "reborn", but still ...) And Sagan was the one who told us that we are already made of star stuff!

carlitos · 9th January 2020, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well since you brought in a past post of yours, I should be allowed to give the response I made to that post:

Good for you, DOC. Keep up the good fight.

steenkh · 11th January 2020, 10:18 AM

When a child has asked me about death, I have asked it how it was before it was born, and then I have followed it up with "that's our best guess of how it is after death".

This has never caused a problem, and the children have accepted it as a good and credible reply.

welshdean · 11th January 2020, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by steenkh

When a child has asked me about death, I have asked it how it was before it was born, and then I have followed it up with "that's our best guess of how it is after death".

This has never caused a problem, and the children have accepted it as a good and credible reply.

Yup, that's what I told my 3.

Safe-Keeper · 11th January 2020, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I so we are firmly in the "My God makes perfect sense and clarifies things for Children, other Gods are confusing and would give the little tykes unrecoverable existential criseses" and "God and Santa are different because God is superserious I'm for realizes guys"

Santa is lot more serious for children then God is to adults who aren't seen as mentally ill.

Santa also has the advantage of not advocating oppression of women and homosexuals, doesn't care who believes or doesn't believe in him, and never condemns anyone to Hell. Heck, the worst thing he does is encourage kids to be good by only giving presents to good kids.

Safe-Keeper · 11th January 2020, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by welshdean

Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'?
My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity*?

*or some other painful punishment.

Reminds me of Julia Sweeney's conversation with mormons or Jehova's Witnesses or whatever they were.

Them: "...so when you die you retain your body in Heaven and it will be fully restored!"
JS: "uhm, so, I don't have a uterus because I had cancer a few years ago, does that mean that if I die and go to Heaven I will have my uterus back?"
Them: "Yes!"
JS: "I don't want it back!"

Dr. Keith · 12th January 2020, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God.

Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.

I know I’m pages behind, but I wanted to report that I took this advice and it worked well.

The local book store had some very good books on Greek gods and my kids really dove into them. They have a much better appreciation for the place of gods and religion in society thanks to that deep study.

Lukraak_Sisser · 12th January 2020, 04:43 AM

See, I got into trouble with this. I too lied about gods to my nieces, but I foolishly chose the Aztec pantheon, and now my nieces are in trouble at school for sacrificing their most popular classmate to keep the sun running.

DOC · 12th January 2020, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God.

Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I know I’m pages behind, but I wanted to report that I took this advice and it worked well.

The local book store had some very good books on Greek gods and my kids really dove into them. They have a much better appreciation for the place of gods and religion in society thanks to that deep study.

I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history.

One of the reasons why that happened can maybe be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said about this person (Christ) that Christians believe is God in the flesh.

Jefferson said this about the teachings of Christ:

"{they're} the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

So maybe it might be better to tell your kids about a possible God who offered humanity what Jefferson said were the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever offered.

And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.

gypsyjackson · 12th January 2020, 06:03 AM

Why not any of the other religions which started after Zeus et al?

RoboTimbo · 12th January 2020, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.

Since the Christian gods aren't divine by your own admission, why not go with Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna? They have so much evidence for their axistence that it wouldn't really be a lie to tell your children about them.

sackett · 12th January 2020, 10:55 AM

Why not John Frum? We have much more immediate testimony to his existence. Until fairly recently, there were people who claimed to have known him. Some said that he was black, others that he was white. Why couldn't he be both? Would that be so hard for a god? Some said he wore a"big hat."

Yes! Tell your children that in the life to come* they will ALL wear the Hat of Frum, and revel in his cargo!

* In the time of the village government, and after 1,000 years, in the government of the ancestors.
Wan day e com, ollim witepellah go buggerimup pinis.

Lukraak_Sisser · 12th January 2020, 11:16 AM

What's with the obsession with Thomas Jefferson? The man was a slaveholder who created a society that by today's terms is less democratic than most nations on earth.

Not to mention that he would not have known that the ideals you so taut were long established in many philosophies way before Christianity appeared.

So if that is anything to go by the Hindu, Buddhist or Confucian teachings would be even BETTER to use than your religion.

DOC · 12th January 2020, 12:29 PM

deleted -double post

RoboTimbo · 12th January 2020, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think:

From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski

"In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations."

https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794

And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india

Thank Krishna that Christians have never fought religious wars or killed anyone in the name of their religion, eh DOC?

DOC · 12th January 2020, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

What's with the obsession with Thomas Jefferson? The man was a slaveholder who created a society that by today's terms is less democratic than most nations on earth.

Not to mention that he would not have known that the ideals you so taut were long established in many philosophies way before Christianity appeared.

So if that is anything to go by the Hindu, Buddhist or Confucian teachings would be even BETTER to use than your religion.

Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think:

From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski

"In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations."

https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794

And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india

RoboTimbo · 12th January 2020, 12:44 PM

Don't forget Heaven's Gate: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heav...eligious_group)

Branch Davidians: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidians

Jonestown: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

Ground for God's Gospel: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

I think Christianity is the very last religion I would want to lie about. I would tell my children exactly how horrible it is. Do you lie about Christianity, DOC? Don't you agree that the gods of Christianity are the worst imaginable?

Krishna, Vishnu and Shiva should be the gods that we tell our children about.

Ulf Nereng · 12th January 2020, 12:47 PM

It is almost as if the moral teachings of any religion becomes irrelevant as soon as the opportunity to commit an atrocity presents itself.

Lukraak_Sisser · 12th January 2020, 01:57 PM

So, we've now established that there is no difference in the moral teachings of the world religions, and that they are all equally violent once in power.
But the lying to children in the OP was about the afterlife and giving comfort.

There the Abrahamic religions are really NOT the good way to go, sorry DOC.
After all, Judaism has no real afterlife, and Christianity and Islam are both so unclear on what is 'good' that odds are everyone gets to suffer for ever.
Don't worry little Jimmy, grandma is being tortured for all eternity, but you get to join her soon enough does not really sound comforting.

When it comes to afterlife, the other religions are just more comforting. I personally don't believe in any afterlife, but reincarnation just sounds better.

Personally, I'd go with Pratchettism. Death gives a caring, painless personal end and you get the afterlife you yourself want.

sackett · 12th January 2020, 02:27 PM

DOC, my man, hey!

Does not chrrristianism promise eternal life? Have you ever reflected on what an appalling fate that would be, to live FOREVER? Think about it. Every day, all day, for absolutely EVER, with no escape. A poster here once observed that the most exquisite paradise would become perdition to anyone; it would be damnation, and THERE WOULD BE NO ESCAPE. Calling eternal life unendurable is meaningless when YOU MUST ENDURE IT FOREVER.

I once put it this way to Jabba of sainted memory: After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed.

If I believed in a hideous thing like that, I'd damn well lie to the kiddos and tell them that death is the end.

If I understand chrrristianism correctly, you believe, with conviction, in eternal life. And apparently you want children to believe in it too. For their own good.

As the big dog might say, wow.

carlitos · 12th January 2020, 02:39 PM

To be fair, Jefferson’s Greek French wasn’t nearly as good as his Pig Latin.

The Atheist · 12th January 2020, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed.

That's my favourite thing about christianity - heaven is the worst hell imaginable.

They really don't think this crap through.

IanS · 13th January 2020, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history.

One of the reasons why that happened can maybe be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said about this person (Christ) that Christians believe is God in the flesh.

Jefferson said this about the teachings of Christ:

"{they're} the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

So maybe it might be better to tell your kids about a possible God who offered humanity what Jefferson said were the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever offered.

And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.

It's not just a choice between either believing in the Christian God or else believing in some other god. That's not the choice at all, is it. You do not need to believe in the existence of any of them.

And you certainly should not believe in any of them unless you think there is good genuine evidence for them.

But the Christian God (and all the others) were first proclaimed at a time thousands of years ago when nobody had any other decent explanation for things in the world around them. At that time people believed that a God must have been responsible for such things as the creation of mankind, the stars in the sky, death & disease, famine and drought, thunder & lightening, earthquakes & volcanoes etc etc. But now, after a couple centuries of modern science, we know differently ... we now know that none of those things are due to any supernatural heavenly God ... we now know that all those things are entirely natural and fully explained processes in nature.

For at least the last 100 years, educated people have really known that all the orginal reasons that people gave for believing in the existence of a God or gods, have turned out to be untrue ... we have long since discovered that all those things are fully explained by science (with no gods involved).

So it's not a choice between rejecting Greek or other gods and then saying “well that means I am therefore forced to believe in the Christian God”. The choice is whether or not you accept the discoveries of science (where so far there is zero evidence of any God, but totally overwhelming evidence against any God being the cause of anything that science has ever investigated).

And that's really the problem with all religious belief – it's anti educational, and anti-scientific in particular.

JoeMorgue · 13th January 2020, 07:16 AM

Ten thousand years of God Bothering and "Pascal's Wager" is still the best thing anyone has come up with.

sackett · 13th January 2020, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

....They really don't think this crap through.

They aren't equipped to think things through.

Or will DOC now prove me wrong? Yoohoo, hello?

The Atheist · 13th January 2020, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Ten thousand years of God Bothering and "Pascal's Wager" is still the best thing anyone has come up with.

Hey, at least quantum physics gives them the "god of the gaps".

"Ooh look! Science is only 99.99999% sure about something - we can slip an omnipotent, omnipresent god who runs the entire universe in there!"

Maybe black holes are actually god?

ynot · 13th January 2020, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

That's my favourite thing about christianity - heaven is the worst hell imaginable.

They really don't think this crap through.

The worst hell of heaven would be eternally knowing that many loved ones are suffering eternal torture in hell. Must be worse for the “loving” God who has had to endure this horrific knowledge from the beginning. Thank god it’s all a load of crap.

RecoveringYuppy · 13th January 2020, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

I once put it this way to Jabba of sainted memory: After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed.

I'm pretty sure the highlighted part is not generally in the Christian concept of heaven.

Dr. Keith · 13th January 2020, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history.

I disagree. They are still relevant to much of popular culture and entertainment even in the US, a country that has never had a large population that worshipped these gods.

Quote:

So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.

Because the people who claim to follow that god don't really reflect that sublime and benevolent code of morals. They seem to focus more on hate than love and more on salvation than reducing suffering. I'll go with Ghandi's quote: I like your Christ, but not your Christianity.

Besides, they picked up plenty of Christianity from the culture they were raised in. My goal was to broaden that perspective, not narrow it.

Thor 2 · 13th January 2020, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

The worst hell of heaven would be eternally knowing that many loved ones are suffering eternal torture in hell. Must be worse for the “loving” God who has had to endure this horrific knowledge from the beginning. Thank god it’s all a load of crap.

You just aren't looking at this the right way.

Take a look at the inspirational writings of Turtullian:

Quote:

Tertullian on the Joy That Results from Watching People Suffer Eternal Punishment (Spectacles 30)

What a panorama of spectacle on that day! Which sight shall excite my wonder? Which, my laughter? Where shall I rejoice, where exult--as I see so many and so mighty kings, whose ascent to heaven used to be made known by public announcement, now along with Jupiter himself, along with the very witnesses of their ascent, groaning in the depths of darkness? Governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the name of the Lord, melting in flames fiercer than those they themselves kindled in their rage against the Christians braving them with contempt?

It goes on and on giving a clear insight into the pleasure Tertullian anticipates on viewing the spectacle of suffering. Nor was he alone among those very holy and inspired fathers of the Church. Thomas Aquinas had a similar mindset.

Foster Zygote · 13th January 2020, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh.

But he didn't say he was a god. He said he was an apocalyptic rabbi who got himself put to death for talking of revolution against the Romans, and was gradually portrayed as a deity over genera by people who never knew him or his acquaintances.

There most likely was a Nicholas of Myra living in Asia Minor in the late 3rd and early 4th Centuries, but that doesn't mean that history confirms the existence of Santa Clause and his elves.

Foster Zygote · 13th January 2020, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God...

Just like there's evidence that Nicholas of Myra runs a magic toy distribution operation from the North Pole.

Foster Zygote · 13th January 2020, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

The OP is essentially saying “Lying works so well for us theists we think atheists should lie as well”.

Why is it always “Grandma is in heaven” and it’s never “Odds are Grandma is in hell”?

That's an inference usually left to the children of Christian fundamentalists to make on their own. I can attest that while I was never actually told that dead relatives and friends who hadn't been "born again" were doomed to eternal agony in Hell, it was an all too disturbing implication of the dogma.

Foster Zygote · 13th January 2020, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

No one has ever grown up to persecute and even kill people because those people do not believe in Santa Claus. The belief in gods has had entirely different results.

Someone hasn't seen the sobering Jack Chick account of the kid who snaps and becomes a homicidal psychotic instantly upon learning that Santa Claus isn't real.

joobz · 13th January 2020, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think:

From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski

"In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations."

https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794

And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india

Yes, we have examples of people being "good" and "bad" independent of what religion, faith, ethnicity, gender, gender identity, hair color, musical preference, educational level, and so on that they subscribe to.

RoboTimbo · 13th January 2020, 04:30 PM

joobz! Next thing you know, pharaoh will return.

arthwollipot · 13th January 2020, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

You just aren't looking at this the right way.

Take a look at the inspirational writings of Turtullian:

Does Turtullian represent the current state of morality in modern theology?

welshdean · 13th January 2020, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Someone hasn't seen the sobering Jack Chick account of the kid who snaps and becomes a homicidal psychotic instantly upon learning that Santa Claus isn't real.

Hah, this one.

8th January 2020, 04:22 PM	#161
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by carlitos I was one of the two. You'd have to search my posts in one of the continuation "evidence for why we know the writers of the new testament told the truth" (sic) threads. ETA - on topic: Actually, one of the contributing factors was when I caught myself telling a child how "when people are still talking about you and quoting you 2,000 years later, then maybe we can discuss how Jesus was wrong" or something like that. My skeptical brain knew that this was a fallacy, and DOCs threads were he first time I had applied skepticism to the New Testament since I had been a kid in Sunday School. So I don't believe in lying to children about God, because they might learn bad logic in the process, since religion only has apologetics to defend it. EEEETTTTTTAAAAA - try this. Well since you brought in a past post of yours, I should be allowed to give the response I made to that post: Quote: If what you say is true, don't blame me, blame Norman Geisler the author of over 60 apologetic books. And you can also blame apologist (and former skeptic) Ralph Muncaster author of the 605 page book "Examine the Evidence". And also Josh Mcdowell author of many apologetic and Christian books. For the most part I'm just the messenger of their books and some other websites. And if what you say is true, can you tell me some of the exact posts that have made you lose your faith in God.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

8th January 2020, 10:39 PM	#162
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,302	Muhammad said he was just a messenger. A messenger from an angel, who spoke for Great God Almighty. But DOC, oh DOC. To be the messenger of Muncaster and McDowell.
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

9th January 2020, 02:08 AM	#163
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,289	Originally Posted by DOC The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist. You can describe Phil Zuckerman as an atheist, an agnostic or a cultural Christian. Never mind, he's one of the best. You should read his book Society without God (GoodReads), which is about secularization in my part of the world. And please don't take his words out of context. You make him sound as if he believes in reincarnation! Quote: “I’ve spent a long time thinking about that question. I’ve read a lot about it. I’ve studied many religions. And my own conclusion is that there is no God out there. It’s just us, floating on this planet in space, creating meaning through the relationships we have, the causes we take up, the art we produce, the suffering we alleviate, and the awe and wonder we experience being alive.” (...) “No one really knows what happens after we die. Maybe we live on in some other realm that we can’t even fathom. Maybe we become one with the stars. Maybe we float in the clouds. Maybe some part of us is reborn in another life-form. We just don’t know. It is a mystery.” “Death is like a deep sleep that you never wake up from. There is no suffering when you are dead. It is just like a silent, peaceful nothingness. It is so sad that Grandpa died, and we will always miss him, and so we need to do things to remember him and keep him alive in our hearts.” “Everything that lives also dies. Everything. Flowers, ants, dolphins, and people. Some people think that it is the painful finality of death that makes life have meaning and prods us to live as fully as we can while we can.” Should You Lie to Your Kids About Believing in God? (Psychology Today, Dec. 30, 2019) We do float in the skies! (And we get up there much faster if our remains are burned.) Parts of us do appear in other life-forms, our atoms and molecules are recycled. (It's a stretch to call it "reborn", but still ...) And Sagan was the one who told us that we are already made of star stuff!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 9th January 2020 at 02:10 AM.

11th January 2020, 10:18 AM	#165
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,105	When a child has asked me about death, I have asked it how it was before it was born, and then I have followed it up with "that's our best guess of how it is after death". This has never caused a problem, and the children have accepted it as a good and credible reply.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

11th January 2020, 12:20 PM	#166
welshdean Heb ei fai, heb ei eni Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,754	Originally Posted by steenkh When a child has asked me about death, I have asked it how it was before it was born, and then I have followed it up with "that's our best guess of how it is after death". This has never caused a problem, and the children have accepted it as a good and credible reply. Yup, that's what I told my 3.
	__________________ "In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP

9th January 2020, 02:21 PM	#164
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,779	Originally Posted by DOC Well since you brought in a past post of yours, I should be allowed to give the response I made to that post: Good for you, DOC. Keep up the good fight.

11th January 2020, 08:24 PM	#167
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,375	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I so we are firmly in the "My God makes perfect sense and clarifies things for Children, other Gods are confusing and would give the little tykes unrecoverable existential criseses" and "God and Santa are different because God is superserious I'm for realizes guys" Santa is lot more serious for children then God is to adults who aren't seen as mentally ill. Santa also has the advantage of not advocating oppression of women and homosexuals, doesn't care who believes or doesn't believe in him, and never condemns anyone to Hell. Heck, the worst thing he does is encourage kids to be good by only giving presents to good kids.
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

11th January 2020, 08:27 PM	#168
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,375	Originally Posted by welshdean Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'? My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity? or some other painful punishment. Reminds me of Julia Sweeney's conversation with mormons or Jehova's Witnesses or whatever they were. Them: "...so when you die you retain your body in Heaven and it will be fully restored!" JS: "uhm, so, I don't have a uterus because I had cancer a few years ago, does that mean that if I die and go to Heaven I will have my uterus back?" Them: "Yes!" JS: "I don't want it back!"
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

12th January 2020, 03:38 AM	#169
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,040	Originally Posted by DOC Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God. Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it. I know I’m pages behind, but I wanted to report that I took this advice and it worked well. The local book store had some very good books on Greek gods and my kids really dove into them. They have a much better appreciation for the place of gods and religion in society thanks to that deep study.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

12th January 2020, 04:43 AM	#170
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,922	See, I got into trouble with this. I too lied about gods to my nieces, but I foolishly chose the Aztec pantheon, and now my nieces are in trouble at school for sacrificing their most popular classmate to keep the sun running.

12th January 2020, 05:55 AM	#171
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by DOC Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God. Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it. Originally Posted by Dr. Keith I know I’m pages behind, but I wanted to report that I took this advice and it worked well. The local book store had some very good books on Greek gods and my kids really dove into them. They have a much better appreciation for the place of gods and religion in society thanks to that deep study. I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history. One of the reasons why that happened can maybe be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said about this person (Christ) that Christians believe is God in the flesh. Jefferson said this about the teachings of Christ: "{they're} the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man." So maybe it might be better to tell your kids about a possible God who offered humanity what Jefferson said were the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever offered. And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 12th January 2020 at 06:07 AM.

12th January 2020, 06:03 AM	#172
gypsyjackson Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,041	Why not any of the other religions which started after Zeus et al?

12th January 2020, 06:57 AM	#173
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods. Since the Christian gods aren't divine by your own admission, why not go with Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna? They have so much evidence for their axistence that it wouldn't really be a lie to tell your children about them.

12th January 2020, 10:55 AM	#174
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,302	Why not John Frum? We have much more immediate testimony to his existence. Until fairly recently, there were people who claimed to have known him. Some said that he was black, others that he was white. Why couldn't he be both? Would that be so hard for a god? Some said he wore a"big hat." Yes! Tell your children that in the life to come* they will ALL wear the Hat of Frum, and revel in his cargo! * In the time of the village government, and after 1,000 years, in the government of the ancestors. Wan day e com, ollim witepellah go buggerimup pinis.
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

12th January 2020, 11:16 AM	#175
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,922	What's with the obsession with Thomas Jefferson? The man was a slaveholder who created a society that by today's terms is less democratic than most nations on earth. Not to mention that he would not have known that the ideals you so taut were long established in many philosophies way before Christianity appeared. So if that is anything to go by the Hindu, Buddhist or Confucian teachings would be even BETTER to use than your religion.

12th January 2020, 12:29 PM	#176
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	deleted -double post
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 12th January 2020 at 12:39 PM.

12th January 2020, 12:36 PM	#177
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think: From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski "In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations." https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794 And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy. https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india Thank Krishna that Christians have never fought religious wars or killed anyone in the name of their religion, eh DOC?

12th January 2020, 12:38 PM	#178
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser What's with the obsession with Thomas Jefferson? The man was a slaveholder who created a society that by today's terms is less democratic than most nations on earth. Not to mention that he would not have known that the ideals you so taut were long established in many philosophies way before Christianity appeared. So if that is anything to go by the Hindu, Buddhist or Confucian teachings would be even BETTER to use than your religion. Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think: From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski "In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations." https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794 And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy. https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 12th January 2020 at 12:47 PM.

12th January 2020, 12:44 PM	#179
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Don't forget Heaven's Gate: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heav...eligious_group) Branch Davidians: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidians Jonestown: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown Ground for God's Gospel: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown I think Christianity is the very last religion I would want to lie about. I would tell my children exactly how horrible it is. Do you lie about Christianity, DOC? Don't you agree that the gods of Christianity are the worst imaginable? Krishna, Vishnu and Shiva should be the gods that we tell our children about.

12th January 2020, 12:47 PM	#180
Ulf Nereng Muse Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 562	It is almost as if the moral teachings of any religion becomes irrelevant as soon as the opportunity to commit an atrocity presents itself.

12th January 2020, 01:57 PM	#181
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,922	So, we've now established that there is no difference in the moral teachings of the world religions, and that they are all equally violent once in power. But the lying to children in the OP was about the afterlife and giving comfort. There the Abrahamic religions are really NOT the good way to go, sorry DOC. After all, Judaism has no real afterlife, and Christianity and Islam are both so unclear on what is 'good' that odds are everyone gets to suffer for ever. Don't worry little Jimmy, grandma is being tortured for all eternity, but you get to join her soon enough does not really sound comforting. When it comes to afterlife, the other religions are just more comforting. I personally don't believe in any afterlife, but reincarnation just sounds better. Personally, I'd go with Pratchettism. Death gives a caring, painless personal end and you get the afterlife you yourself want.

12th January 2020, 02:27 PM	#182
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,302	DOC, my man, hey! Does not chrrristianism promise eternal life? Have you ever reflected on what an appalling fate that would be, to live FOREVER? Think about it. Every day, all day, for absolutely EVER, with no escape. A poster here once observed that the most exquisite paradise would become perdition to anyone; it would be damnation, and THERE WOULD BE NO ESCAPE. Calling eternal life unendurable is meaningless when YOU MUST ENDURE IT FOREVER. I once put it this way to Jabba of sainted memory: After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed. If I believed in a hideous thing like that, I'd damn well lie to the kiddos and tell them that death is the end. If I understand chrrristianism correctly, you believe, with conviction, in eternal life. And apparently you want children to believe in it too. For their own good. As the big dog might say, wow.
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

12th January 2020, 02:39 PM	#183
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,779	To be fair, Jefferson’s Greek French wasn’t nearly as good as his Pig Latin.

12th January 2020, 06:09 PM	#184
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,936	Originally Posted by sackett After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed. That's my favourite thing about christianity - heaven is the worst hell imaginable. They really don't think this crap through.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

13th January 2020, 07:03 AM	#185
IanS Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 5,075	Originally Posted by DOC I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history. One of the reasons why that happened can maybe be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said about this person (Christ) that Christians believe is God in the flesh. Jefferson said this about the teachings of Christ: "{they're} the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man." So maybe it might be better to tell your kids about a possible God who offered humanity what Jefferson said were the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever offered. And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods. It's not just a choice between either believing in the Christian God or else believing in some other god. That's not the choice at all, is it. You do not need to believe in the existence of any of them. And you certainly should not believe in any of them unless you think there is good genuine evidence for them. But the Christian God (and all the others) were first proclaimed at a time thousands of years ago when nobody had any other decent explanation for things in the world around them. At that time people believed that a God must have been responsible for such things as the creation of mankind, the stars in the sky, death & disease, famine and drought, thunder & lightening, earthquakes & volcanoes etc etc. But now, after a couple centuries of modern science, we know differently ... we now know that none of those things are due to any supernatural heavenly God ... we now know that all those things are entirely natural and fully explained processes in nature. For at least the last 100 years, educated people have really known that all the orginal reasons that people gave for believing in the existence of a God or gods, have turned out to be untrue ... we have long since discovered that all those things are fully explained by science (with no gods involved). So it's not a choice between rejecting Greek or other gods and then saying “well that means I am therefore forced to believe in the Christian God”. The choice is whether or not you accept the discoveries of science (where so far there is zero evidence of any God, but totally overwhelming evidence against any God being the cause of anything that science has ever investigated). And that's really the problem with all religious belief – it's anti educational, and anti-scientific in particular.
IanS Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 5,075

13th January 2020, 07:16 AM	#186
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,958	Ten thousand years of God Bothering and "Pascal's Wager" is still the best thing anyone has come up with.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

13th January 2020, 08:35 AM	#187
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,302	I just felt a breeze Originally Posted by The Atheist ....They really don't think this crap through. They aren't equipped to think things through. Or will DOC now prove me wrong? Yoohoo, hello?
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

13th January 2020, 11:53 AM	#188
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,936	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Ten thousand years of God Bothering and "Pascal's Wager" is still the best thing anyone has come up with. Hey, at least quantum physics gives them the "god of the gaps". "Ooh look! Science is only 99.99999% sure about something - we can slip an omnipotent, omnipresent god who runs the entire universe in there!" Maybe black holes are actually god?
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

13th January 2020, 12:02 PM	#189
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8,852	Originally Posted by The Atheist That's my favourite thing about christianity - heaven is the worst hell imaginable. They really don't think this crap through. The worst hell of heaven would be eternally knowing that many loved ones are suffering eternal torture in hell. Must be worse for the “loving” God who has had to endure this horrific knowledge from the beginning. Thank god it’s all a load of crap.
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8,852	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

13th January 2020, 12:38 PM	#190
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,352	Originally Posted by sackett I once put it this way to Jabba of sainted memory: After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed. I'm pretty sure the highlighted part is not generally in the Christian concept of heaven.

13th January 2020, 12:48 PM	#191
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,040	Originally Posted by DOC I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history. I disagree. They are still relevant to much of popular culture and entertainment even in the US, a country that has never had a large population that worshipped these gods. Quote: So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods. Because the people who claim to follow that god don't really reflect that sublime and benevolent code of morals. They seem to focus more on hate than love and more on salvation than reducing suffering. I'll go with Ghandi's quote: I like your Christ, but not your Christianity. Besides, they picked up plenty of Christianity from the culture they were raised in. My goal was to broaden that perspective, not narrow it.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

13th January 2020, 02:40 PM	#192
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,528	Originally Posted by ynot The worst hell of heaven would be eternally knowing that many loved ones are suffering eternal torture in hell. Must be worse for the “loving” God who has had to endure this horrific knowledge from the beginning. Thank god it’s all a load of crap. You just aren't looking at this the right way. Take a look at the inspirational writings of Turtullian: Quote: Tertullian on the Joy That Results from Watching People Suffer Eternal Punishment (Spectacles 30) What a panorama of spectacle on that day! Which sight shall excite my wonder? Which, my laughter? Where shall I rejoice, where exult--as I see so many and so mighty kings, whose ascent to heaven used to be made known by public announcement, now along with Jupiter himself, along with the very witnesses of their ascent, groaning in the depths of darkness? Governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the name of the Lord, melting in flames fiercer than those they themselves kindled in their rage against the Christians braving them with contempt? It goes on and on giving a clear insight into the pleasure Tertullian anticipates on viewing the spectacle of suffering. Nor was he alone among those very holy and inspired fathers of the Church. Thomas Aquinas had a similar mindset.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

13th January 2020, 03:04 PM	#193
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17,563	Originally Posted by DOC One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh. But he didn't say he was a god. He said he was an apocalyptic rabbi who got himself put to death for talking of revolution against the Romans, and was gradually portrayed as a deity over genera by people who never knew him or his acquaintances. There most likely was a Nicholas of Myra living in Asia Minor in the late 3rd and early 4th Centuries, but that doesn't mean that history confirms the existence of Santa Clause and his elves.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

13th January 2020, 03:09 PM	#194
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17,563	Originally Posted by DOC But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God... Just like there's evidence that Nicholas of Myra runs a magic toy distribution operation from the North Pole.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

13th January 2020, 03:16 PM	#195
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17,563	Originally Posted by ynot The OP is essentially saying “Lying works so well for us theists we think atheists should lie as well”. Why is it always “Grandma is in heaven” and it’s never “Odds are Grandma is in hell”? That's an inference usually left to the children of Christian fundamentalists to make on their own. I can attest that while I was never actually told that dead relatives and friends who hadn't been "born again" were doomed to eternal agony in Hell, it was an all too disturbing implication of the dogma.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.