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Tags atheism , belief in god , Leonardo Blair , mental health issues

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Old 8th January 2020, 04:22 PM   #161
DOC
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I was one of the two. You'd have to search my posts in one of the continuation "evidence for why we know the writers of the new testament told the truth" (sic) threads.


ETA - on topic:
Actually, one of the contributing factors was when I caught myself telling a child how "when people are still talking about you and quoting you 2,000 years later, then maybe we can discuss how Jesus was wrong" or something like that. My skeptical brain knew that this was a fallacy, and DOCs threads were he first time I had applied skepticism to the New Testament since I had been a kid in Sunday School. So I don't believe in lying to children about God, because they might learn bad logic in the process, since religion only has apologetics to defend it.


EEEETTTTTTAAAAA - try this.
Well since you brought in a past post of yours, I should be allowed to give the response I made to that post:

Quote:
If what you say is true, don't blame me, blame Norman Geisler the author of over 60 apologetic books. And you can also blame apologist (and former skeptic) Ralph Muncaster author of the 605 page book "Examine the Evidence". And also Josh Mcdowell author of many apologetic and Christian books. For the most part I'm just the messenger of their books and some other websites.

And if what you say is true, can you tell me some of the exact posts that have made you lose your faith in God.
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Old 8th January 2020, 10:39 PM   #162
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Muhammad said he was just a messenger. A messenger from an angel, who spoke for Great God Almighty.

But DOC, oh DOC. To be the messenger of Muncaster and McDowell.
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Old 9th January 2020, 02:08 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The title of this thread contains the wording "if you're an atheist". If the author (Phil Zuckerman) of the above article is an atheist he would still be acting untruthful by saying such things to the child as "maybe we float in the clouds" or "maybe we return as another life-form" after death. That sounds more like an agnostic than a true atheist.

You can describe Phil Zuckerman as an atheist, an agnostic or a cultural Christian. Never mind, he's one of the best. You should read his book Society without God (GoodReads), which is about secularization in my part of the world.
And please don't take his words out of context. You make him sound as if he believes in reincarnation!

Quote:
“I’ve spent a long time thinking about that question. I’ve read a lot about it. I’ve studied many religions. And my own conclusion is that there is no God out there. It’s just us, floating on this planet in space, creating meaning through the relationships we have, the causes we take up, the art we produce, the suffering we alleviate, and the awe and wonder we experience being alive.”
(...)
“No one really knows what happens after we die. Maybe we live on in some other realm that we can’t even fathom. Maybe we become one with the stars. Maybe we float in the clouds. Maybe some part of us is reborn in another life-form. We just don’t know. It is a mystery.”
“Death is like a deep sleep that you never wake up from. There is no suffering when you are dead. It is just like a silent, peaceful nothingness. It is so sad that Grandpa died, and we will always miss him, and so we need to do things to remember him and keep him alive in our hearts.”
“Everything that lives also dies. Everything. Flowers, ants, dolphins, and people. Some people think that it is the painful finality of death that makes life have meaning and prods us to live as fully as we can while we can.”
Should You Lie to Your Kids About Believing in God? (Psychology Today, Dec. 30, 2019)

We do float in the skies! (And we get up there much faster if our remains are burned.) Parts of us do appear in other life-forms, our atoms and molecules are recycled. (It's a stretch to call it "reborn", but still ...) And Sagan was the one who told us that we are already made of star stuff!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 9th January 2020 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 9th January 2020, 02:21 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well since you brought in a past post of yours, I should be allowed to give the response I made to that post:
Good for you, DOC. Keep up the good fight.
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Old 11th January 2020, 10:18 AM   #165
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When a child has asked me about death, I have asked it how it was before it was born, and then I have followed it up with "that's our best guess of how it is after death".

This has never caused a problem, and the children have accepted it as a good and credible reply.
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Old 11th January 2020, 12:20 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
When a child has asked me about death, I have asked it how it was before it was born, and then I have followed it up with "that's our best guess of how it is after death".

This has never caused a problem, and the children have accepted it as a good and credible reply.
Yup, that's what I told my 3.
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Old 11th January 2020, 08:24 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I so we are firmly in the "My God makes perfect sense and clarifies things for Children, other Gods are confusing and would give the little tykes unrecoverable existential criseses" and "God and Santa are different because God is superserious I'm for realizes guys"

Santa is lot more serious for children then God is to adults who aren't seen as mentally ill.
Santa also has the advantage of not advocating oppression of women and homosexuals, doesn't care who believes or doesn't believe in him, and never condemns anyone to Hell. Heck, the worst thing he does is encourage kids to be good by only giving presents to good kids.
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Old 11th January 2020, 08:27 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
Is there any other 'Uncle Ernie'?
My point being, if it behoves Doc to lie to a child about Auntie Doris, sitting on a cloud, being massaged by angels, then what if an absolute bastard like Townshends 'Ernie' dies? Would you, Doc, tell the same poor child that his uncle is having hot lava poured down his 'japs-eye' for all eternity*?


*or some other painful punishment.
Reminds me of Julia Sweeney's conversation with mormons or Jehova's Witnesses or whatever they were.

Them: "...so when you die you retain your body in Heaven and it will be fully restored!"
JS: "uhm, so, I don't have a uterus because I had cancer a few years ago, does that mean that if I die and go to Heaven I will have my uterus back?"
Them: "Yes!"
JS: "I don't want it back!"
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Old 12th January 2020, 03:38 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God.

Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.
I know I’m pages behind, but I wanted to report that I took this advice and it worked well.

The local book store had some very good books on Greek gods and my kids really dove into them. They have a much better appreciation for the place of gods and religion in society thanks to that deep study.
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Old 12th January 2020, 04:43 AM   #170
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See, I got into trouble with this. I too lied about gods to my nieces, but I foolishly chose the Aztec pantheon, and now my nieces are in trouble at school for sacrificing their most popular classmate to keep the sun running.
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Old 12th January 2020, 05:55 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by DOC
Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God.

Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I know I’m pages behind, but I wanted to report that I took this advice and it worked well.

The local book store had some very good books on Greek gods and my kids really dove into them. They have a much better appreciation for the place of gods and religion in society thanks to that deep study.
I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history.

One of the reasons why that happened can maybe be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said about this person (Christ) that Christians believe is God in the flesh.

Jefferson said this about the teachings of Christ:

"{they're} the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

So maybe it might be better to tell your kids about a possible God who offered humanity what Jefferson said were the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever offered.

And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.

Last edited by DOC; 12th January 2020 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:03 AM   #172
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Why not any of the other religions which started after Zeus et al?
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:57 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.
Since the Christian gods aren't divine by your own admission, why not go with Shiva, Vishnu and Krishna? They have so much evidence for their axistence that it wouldn't really be a lie to tell your children about them.
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Old 12th January 2020, 10:55 AM   #174
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Why not John Frum? We have much more immediate testimony to his existence. Until fairly recently, there were people who claimed to have known him. Some said that he was black, others that he was white. Why couldn't he be both? Would that be so hard for a god? Some said he wore a"big hat."

Yes! Tell your children that in the life to come* they will ALL wear the Hat of Frum, and revel in his cargo!

* In the time of the village government, and after 1,000 years, in the government of the ancestors.
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Old 12th January 2020, 11:16 AM   #175
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What's with the obsession with Thomas Jefferson? The man was a slaveholder who created a society that by today's terms is less democratic than most nations on earth.

Not to mention that he would not have known that the ideals you so taut were long established in many philosophies way before Christianity appeared.

So if that is anything to go by the Hindu, Buddhist or Confucian teachings would be even BETTER to use than your religion.
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Old 12th January 2020, 12:29 PM   #176
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deleted -double post

Last edited by DOC; 12th January 2020 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 12th January 2020, 12:36 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think:

From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski

"In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations."

https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794

And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india
Thank Krishna that Christians have never fought religious wars or killed anyone in the name of their religion, eh DOC?
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Old 12th January 2020, 12:38 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
What's with the obsession with Thomas Jefferson? The man was a slaveholder who created a society that by today's terms is less democratic than most nations on earth.

Not to mention that he would not have known that the ideals you so taut were long established in many philosophies way before Christianity appeared.

So if that is anything to go by the Hindu, Buddhist or Confucian teachings would be even BETTER to use than your religion.
Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think:

From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski

"In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations."

https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794

And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india

Last edited by DOC; 12th January 2020 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 12th January 2020, 12:44 PM   #179
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Don't forget Heaven's Gate: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heav...eligious_group)

Branch Davidians: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidians

Jonestown: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

Ground for God's Gospel: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

I think Christianity is the very last religion I would want to lie about. I would tell my children exactly how horrible it is. Do you lie about Christianity, DOC? Don't you agree that the gods of Christianity are the worst imaginable?

Krishna, Vishnu and Shiva should be the gods that we tell our children about.
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Old 12th January 2020, 12:47 PM   #180
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It is almost as if the moral teachings of any religion becomes irrelevant as soon as the opportunity to commit an atrocity presents itself.
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Old 12th January 2020, 01:57 PM   #181
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So, we've now established that there is no difference in the moral teachings of the world religions, and that they are all equally violent once in power.
But the lying to children in the OP was about the afterlife and giving comfort.

There the Abrahamic religions are really NOT the good way to go, sorry DOC.
After all, Judaism has no real afterlife, and Christianity and Islam are both so unclear on what is 'good' that odds are everyone gets to suffer for ever.
Don't worry little Jimmy, grandma is being tortured for all eternity, but you get to join her soon enough does not really sound comforting.

When it comes to afterlife, the other religions are just more comforting. I personally don't believe in any afterlife, but reincarnation just sounds better.

Personally, I'd go with Pratchettism. Death gives a caring, painless personal end and you get the afterlife you yourself want.
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Old 12th January 2020, 02:27 PM   #182
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DOC, my man, hey!

Does not chrrristianism promise eternal life? Have you ever reflected on what an appalling fate that would be, to live FOREVER? Think about it. Every day, all day, for absolutely EVER, with no escape. A poster here once observed that the most exquisite paradise would become perdition to anyone; it would be damnation, and THERE WOULD BE NO ESCAPE. Calling eternal life unendurable is meaningless when YOU MUST ENDURE IT FOREVER.

I once put it this way to Jabba of sainted memory: After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed.

If I believed in a hideous thing like that, I'd damn well lie to the kiddos and tell them that death is the end.

If I understand chrrristianism correctly, you believe, with conviction, in eternal life. And apparently you want children to believe in it too. For their own good.

As the big dog might say, wow.
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Old 12th January 2020, 02:39 PM   #183
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To be fair, Jefferson’s Greek French wasn’t nearly as good as his Pig Latin.
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:09 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed.
That's my favourite thing about christianity - heaven is the worst hell imaginable.

They really don't think this crap through.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:03 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history.

One of the reasons why that happened can maybe be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said about this person (Christ) that Christians believe is God in the flesh.

Jefferson said this about the teachings of Christ:

"{they're} the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

So maybe it might be better to tell your kids about a possible God who offered humanity what Jefferson said were the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever offered.

And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.


It's not just a choice between either believing in the Christian God or else believing in some other god. That's not the choice at all, is it. You do not need to believe in the existence of any of them.

And you certainly should not believe in any of them unless you think there is good genuine evidence for them.

But the Christian God (and all the others) were first proclaimed at a time thousands of years ago when nobody had any other decent explanation for things in the world around them. At that time people believed that a God must have been responsible for such things as the creation of mankind, the stars in the sky, death & disease, famine and drought, thunder & lightening, earthquakes & volcanoes etc etc. But now, after a couple centuries of modern science, we know differently ... we now know that none of those things are due to any supernatural heavenly God ... we now know that all those things are entirely natural and fully explained processes in nature.

For at least the last 100 years, educated people have really known that all the orginal reasons that people gave for believing in the existence of a God or gods, have turned out to be untrue ... we have long since discovered that all those things are fully explained by science (with no gods involved).

So it's not a choice between rejecting Greek or other gods and then saying “well that means I am therefore forced to believe in the Christian God”. The choice is whether or not you accept the discoveries of science (where so far there is zero evidence of any God, but totally overwhelming evidence against any God being the cause of anything that science has ever investigated).

And that's really the problem with all religious belief – it's anti educational, and anti-scientific in particular.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:16 AM   #186
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Ten thousand years of God Bothering and "Pascal's Wager" is still the best thing anyone has come up with.
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:35 AM   #187
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I just felt a breeze

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
....They really don't think this crap through.
They aren't equipped to think things through.

Or will DOC now prove me wrong? Yoohoo, hello?
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:53 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ten thousand years of God Bothering and "Pascal's Wager" is still the best thing anyone has come up with.
Hey, at least quantum physics gives them the "god of the gaps".

"Ooh look! Science is only 99.99999% sure about something - we can slip an omnipotent, omnipresent god who runs the entire universe in there!"

Maybe black holes are actually god?
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Old 13th January 2020, 12:02 PM   #189
ynot
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's my favourite thing about christianity - heaven is the worst hell imaginable.

They really don't think this crap through.
The worst hell of heaven would be eternally knowing that many loved ones are suffering eternal torture in hell. Must be worse for the “loving” God who has had to endure this horrific knowledge from the beginning. Thank god it’s all a load of crap.
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Old 13th January 2020, 12:38 PM   #190
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post

I once put it this way to Jabba of sainted memory: After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed.

I'm pretty sure the highlighted part is not generally in the Christian concept of heaven.
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Old 13th January 2020, 12:48 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I realize that the Greek and subsequent Roman gods of antiquity could be interesting to read about but the growth of Christianity pretty much put them on the ash heap of history.
I disagree. They are still relevant to much of popular culture and entertainment even in the US, a country that has never had a large population that worshipped these gods.

Quote:
So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods.
Because the people who claim to follow that god don't really reflect that sublime and benevolent code of morals. They seem to focus more on hate than love and more on salvation than reducing suffering. I'll go with Ghandi's quote: I like your Christ, but not your Christianity.

Besides, they picked up plenty of Christianity from the culture they were raised in. My goal was to broaden that perspective, not narrow it.
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Old 13th January 2020, 02:40 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The worst hell of heaven would be eternally knowing that many loved ones are suffering eternal torture in hell. Must be worse for the “loving” God who has had to endure this horrific knowledge from the beginning. Thank god it’s all a load of crap.

You just aren't looking at this the right way.

Take a look at the inspirational writings of Turtullian:

Quote:

Tertullian on the Joy That Results from Watching People Suffer Eternal Punishment (Spectacles 30)

What a panorama of spectacle on that day! Which sight shall excite my wonder? Which, my laughter? Where shall I rejoice, where exult--as I see so many and so mighty kings, whose ascent to heaven used to be made known by public announcement, now along with Jupiter himself, along with the very witnesses of their ascent, groaning in the depths of darkness? Governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the name of the Lord, melting in flames fiercer than those they themselves kindled in their rage against the Christians braving them with contempt?
It goes on and on giving a clear insight into the pleasure Tertullian anticipates on viewing the spectacle of suffering. Nor was he alone among those very holy and inspired fathers of the Church. Thomas Aquinas had a similar mindset.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:04 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh.
But he didn't say he was a god. He said he was an apocalyptic rabbi who got himself put to death for talking of revolution against the Romans, and was gradually portrayed as a deity over genera by people who never knew him or his acquaintances.

There most likely was a Nicholas of Myra living in Asia Minor in the late 3rd and early 4th Centuries, but that doesn't mean that history confirms the existence of Santa Clause and his elves.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:09 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God...
Just like there's evidence that Nicholas of Myra runs a magic toy distribution operation from the North Pole.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:16 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The OP is essentially saying “Lying works so well for us theists we think atheists should lie as well”.

Why is it always “Grandma is in heaven” and it’s never “Odds are Grandma is in hell”?
That's an inference usually left to the children of Christian fundamentalists to make on their own. I can attest that while I was never actually told that dead relatives and friends who hadn't been "born again" were doomed to eternal agony in Hell, it was an all too disturbing implication of the dogma.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:20 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
No one has ever grown up to persecute and even kill people because those people do not believe in Santa Claus. The belief in gods has had entirely different results.
Someone hasn't seen the sobering Jack Chick account of the kid who snaps and becomes a homicidal psychotic instantly upon learning that Santa Claus isn't real.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:52 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think:

From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski

"In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations."

https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794

And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india
Yes, we have examples of people being "good" and "bad" independent of what religion, faith, ethnicity, gender, gender identity, hair color, musical preference, educational level, and so on that they subscribe to.
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:30 PM   #198
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joobz! Next thing you know, pharaoh will return.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:08 PM   #199
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You just aren't looking at this the right way.

Take a look at the inspirational writings of Turtullian:
Does Turtullian represent the current state of morality in modern theology?
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:17 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Someone hasn't seen the sobering Jack Chick account of the kid who snaps and becomes a homicidal psychotic instantly upon learning that Santa Claus isn't real.
Hah, this one.
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