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#161 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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#162 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,302
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Muhammad said he was just a messenger. A messenger from an angel, who spoke for Great God Almighty.
But DOC, oh DOC. To be the messenger of Muncaster and McDowell. |
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Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
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#163 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,289
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You can describe Phil Zuckerman as an atheist, an agnostic or a cultural Christian. Never mind, he's one of the best. You should read his book Society without God (GoodReads), which is about secularization in my part of the world. And please don't take his words out of context. You make him sound as if he believes in reincarnation!
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We do float in the skies! (And we get up there much faster if our remains are burned.) Parts of us do appear in other life-forms, our atoms and molecules are recycled. (It's a stretch to call it "reborn", but still ...) And Sagan was the one who told us that we are already made of star stuff! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#164 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 22,779
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#165 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 6,105
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When a child has asked me about death, I have asked it how it was before it was born, and then I have followed it up with "that's our best guess of how it is after death".
This has never caused a problem, and the children have accepted it as a good and credible reply. |
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Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none! |
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#166 |
Heb ei fai, heb ei eni
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,754
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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#167 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,375
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#168 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,375
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Reminds me of Julia Sweeney's conversation with mormons or Jehova's Witnesses or whatever they were.
Them: "...so when you die you retain your body in Heaven and it will be fully restored!" JS: "uhm, so, I don't have a uterus because I had cancer a few years ago, does that mean that if I die and go to Heaven I will have my uterus back?" Them: "Yes!" JS: "I don't want it back!" |
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#169 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,040
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I know I’m pages behind, but I wanted to report that I took this advice and it worked well.
The local book store had some very good books on Greek gods and my kids really dove into them. They have a much better appreciation for the place of gods and religion in society thanks to that deep study. |
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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#170 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,922
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See, I got into trouble with this. I too lied about gods to my nieces, but I foolishly chose the Aztec pantheon, and now my nieces are in trouble at school for sacrificing their most popular classmate to keep the sun running.
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#171 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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Originally Posted by DOC
One of the reasons why that happened can maybe be explained by what Thomas Jefferson said about this person (Christ) that Christians believe is God in the flesh. Jefferson said this about the teachings of Christ: "{they're} the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man." So maybe it might be better to tell your kids about a possible God who offered humanity what Jefferson said were the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever offered. And yes I know Jefferson had the opinion that the miracles of Christ could not be supported by reason but then again I have a feeling Jefferson (who could read Greek French and Latin), didn't believe in the existence of the Greek gods either. So given the choice, why not go with a god that some say offered the most sublime and benevolent code of morals ever given humanity and also go with a god that is still relevant in our society today unlike the Greek gods. |
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#172 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts: 1,041
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Why not any of the other religions which started after Zeus et al?
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#173 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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#174 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,302
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Why not John Frum? We have much more immediate testimony to his existence. Until fairly recently, there were people who claimed to have known him. Some said that he was black, others that he was white. Why couldn't he be both? Would that be so hard for a god? Some said he wore a"big hat."
Yes! Tell your children that in the life to come* they will ALL wear the Hat of Frum, and revel in his cargo! * In the time of the village government, and after 1,000 years, in the government of the ancestors. Wan day e com, ollim witepellah go buggerimup pinis. |
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Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
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#175 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,922
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What's with the obsession with Thomas Jefferson? The man was a slaveholder who created a society that by today's terms is less democratic than most nations on earth.
Not to mention that he would not have known that the ideals you so taut were long established in many philosophies way before Christianity appeared. So if that is anything to go by the Hindu, Buddhist or Confucian teachings would be even BETTER to use than your religion. |
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#176 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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deleted -double post
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#177 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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#178 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
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Recent events tell us Hinduism and Buddhism are not as peace loving as people think:
From the article: A Short History of Violent Buddhism by Kallie Szczepanski "In more recent times, unfortunately, Buddhist monks in other countries have also encouraged and even participated in wars - particular wars against religious minority groups in predominantly Buddhist nations." https://www.thoughtco.com/short-hist...uddhism-195794 And don't forget Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu militant who advocated Hindu supremacy. https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-re...alism-in-india |
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#179 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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Don't forget Heaven's Gate: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heav...eligious_group)
Branch Davidians: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidians Jonestown: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown Ground for God's Gospel: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown I think Christianity is the very last religion I would want to lie about. I would tell my children exactly how horrible it is. Do you lie about Christianity, DOC? Don't you agree that the gods of Christianity are the worst imaginable? Krishna, Vishnu and Shiva should be the gods that we tell our children about. |
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#180 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 562
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It is almost as if the moral teachings of any religion becomes irrelevant as soon as the opportunity to commit an atrocity presents itself.
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#181 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,922
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So, we've now established that there is no difference in the moral teachings of the world religions, and that they are all equally violent once in power.
But the lying to children in the OP was about the afterlife and giving comfort. There the Abrahamic religions are really NOT the good way to go, sorry DOC. After all, Judaism has no real afterlife, and Christianity and Islam are both so unclear on what is 'good' that odds are everyone gets to suffer for ever. Don't worry little Jimmy, grandma is being tortured for all eternity, but you get to join her soon enough does not really sound comforting. When it comes to afterlife, the other religions are just more comforting. I personally don't believe in any afterlife, but reincarnation just sounds better. Personally, I'd go with Pratchettism. Death gives a caring, painless personal end and you get the afterlife you yourself want. |
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#182 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,302
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DOC, my man, hey!
Does not chrrristianism promise eternal life? Have you ever reflected on what an appalling fate that would be, to live FOREVER? Think about it. Every day, all day, for absolutely EVER, with no escape. A poster here once observed that the most exquisite paradise would become perdition to anyone; it would be damnation, and THERE WOULD BE NO ESCAPE. Calling eternal life unendurable is meaningless when YOU MUST ENDURE IT FOREVER. I once put it this way to Jabba of sainted memory: After octillions of billions of years, when every subatomic particle is a quadrillion kilometers from the next one, there eternally chrrristian you would be, still playing solitaire, and not even the first microsecond of eternity would have passed. If I believed in a hideous thing like that, I'd damn well lie to the kiddos and tell them that death is the end. If I understand chrrristianism correctly, you believe, with conviction, in eternal life. And apparently you want children to believe in it too. For their own good. As the big dog might say, wow. |
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Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
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#183 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 22,779
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To be fair, Jefferson’s Greek French wasn’t nearly as good as his Pig Latin.
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#184 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,936
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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#185 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,075
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It's not just a choice between either believing in the Christian God or else believing in some other god. That's not the choice at all, is it. You do not need to believe in the existence of any of them. And you certainly should not believe in any of them unless you think there is good genuine evidence for them. But the Christian God (and all the others) were first proclaimed at a time thousands of years ago when nobody had any other decent explanation for things in the world around them. At that time people believed that a God must have been responsible for such things as the creation of mankind, the stars in the sky, death & disease, famine and drought, thunder & lightening, earthquakes & volcanoes etc etc. But now, after a couple centuries of modern science, we know differently ... we now know that none of those things are due to any supernatural heavenly God ... we now know that all those things are entirely natural and fully explained processes in nature. For at least the last 100 years, educated people have really known that all the orginal reasons that people gave for believing in the existence of a God or gods, have turned out to be untrue ... we have long since discovered that all those things are fully explained by science (with no gods involved). So it's not a choice between rejecting Greek or other gods and then saying “well that means I am therefore forced to believe in the Christian God”. The choice is whether or not you accept the discoveries of science (where so far there is zero evidence of any God, but totally overwhelming evidence against any God being the cause of anything that science has ever investigated). And that's really the problem with all religious belief – it's anti educational, and anti-scientific in particular. |
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#186 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,958
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Ten thousand years of God Bothering and "Pascal's Wager" is still the best thing anyone has come up with.
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#187 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,302
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I just felt a breeze
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Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
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#188 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,936
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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#189 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,852
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#190 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,352
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#191 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,040
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I disagree. They are still relevant to much of popular culture and entertainment even in the US, a country that has never had a large population that worshipped these gods.
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Besides, they picked up plenty of Christianity from the culture they were raised in. My goal was to broaden that perspective, not narrow it. |
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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#192 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,528
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You just aren't looking at this the right way. Take a look at the inspirational writings of Turtullian:
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#193 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,563
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But he didn't say he was a god. He said he was an apocalyptic rabbi who got himself put to death for talking of revolution against the Romans, and was gradually portrayed as a deity over genera by people who never knew him or his acquaintances.
There most likely was a Nicholas of Myra living in Asia Minor in the late 3rd and early 4th Centuries, but that doesn't mean that history confirms the existence of Santa Clause and his elves. |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#194 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,563
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#195 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,563
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That's an inference usually left to the children of Christian fundamentalists to make on their own. I can attest that while I was never actually told that dead relatives and friends who hadn't been "born again" were doomed to eternal agony in Hell, it was an all too disturbing implication of the dogma.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#196 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,563
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#197 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#198 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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joobz! Next thing you know, pharaoh will return.
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#199 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,631
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Please scream inside your heart. |
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#200 |
Heb ei fai, heb ei eni
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,754
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Hah, this one.
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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