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Tags Iran incidents , Qasem Soleimani , Trump controversies , US-Iran relations

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Old 4th January 2020, 12:11 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That can't be the necessity as this general has been traveling around the ME for decades in range of American forces many, many times.
It's not a physical law. A proposed military operation can meet all the principled requirements, and still be deferred or canceled for other reasons. Commanders are not required to launch every attack that they can justify launching.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:16 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm satisifed on the following two points:

- Iran is actively engaged in warfare against the US and its allies.

- This man was a senior planner in the Iranian military, and that he was highly effective in that role.
I knew if I popped in here I'd be able to defend one person actively defending it.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:18 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Would this have been a valid and legal operation to perform at Heathrow? LAX? Why or why not?
Don't **** with the Brits.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:24 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't **** with the Brits.
Apart from the Brits being so much better at ******* themselves, why not?
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:40 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I knew if I popped in here I'd be able to defend one person actively defending it.

Thanks for your help.
I don't know what this means.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:41 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Reading the Twitter Deplorables about it, you'd think anyone who has any doubt about this is unamerican.

I guess years of calling the media and democrat lying enemies of the people paid off.
Had this been Obama's decision, these folk would be calling for his arrest.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:42 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't **** with the Brits.
What's to stop trump doing it?

Iraq is supposedly allied with the US and he did it to them. Why wouldn't he pull the same stunt in the UK, Germany or Canada?
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:48 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Just a reminder we've been doing this for a long time and it is silly to go after Trump for taking out our enemies. It's his job, just like it was Obama's job.
I think the other question deserves an answer: would such an attack have been acceptable at Heathrow?
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:50 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't **** with the Brits.
They'd just quietly send a double-oh agent to take them out, and then bang the guys girlfriend, just for good measure.
License to kill and all that whatnot, you know.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:51 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Who is going to stop who from doing what?

Iranian meddling? American assassinations?
The latter. Who can stop the US from doing whatever the **** it wants, now? Especially with that dickhead in the Oval Office?
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:56 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Dude, that's really not that hard to find. It's mentioned in Wiki page I linked.
??? What's mentioned at the wiki page you linked?


ETA: In case it's gotten lost, my question is "who is the Iraqi general that Darat and Squegee have in mind?" The wikipedia article doesn't cite Darat or Squegee. And as you yourself pointed out that guys description doesn't quite fit "Iraqi General".

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 4th January 2020 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:59 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Apart from the Brits being so much better at ******* themselves, why not?
Just remember who your founders were.
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:18 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
ETA: In case it's gotten lost, my question is "who is the Iraqi general that Darat and Squegee have in mind?" The wikipedia article doesn't cite Darat or Squegee. And as you yourself pointed out that guys description doesn't quite fit "Iraqi General".

Maybe you should read up a bit on the PMU (of which Khataib Hezbollah is a subdivision). I recommend this article (published in early 2018 so you have to extrapolate the successful integration process of the militias into the army).
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Last edited by Childlike Empress; 4th January 2020 at 01:29 PM. Reason: + () after re-reading
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:18 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
They'd just quietly send a double-oh agent to take them out, and then bang the guys girlfriend, just for good measure.
License to kill and all that whatnot, you know.
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:27 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think the other question deserves an answer: would such an attack have been acceptable at Heathrow?
That would be an unacceptable waste of money when you could just use some novichok and a trip to Salisbury cathedral.

Two at a pinch.
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:29 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Maybe you should read up a bit on the PMU (of which Khataib Hezbollah is a subdivision). I recommend this article.
Thanks, I've read up on them already.
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:33 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Thanks, I've read up on them already.

I just added this to my post: "(published in early 2018 so you have to extrapolate the successful integration process of the militias into the army)". By now the leader of K. Hezbollah and deputy leader of PMU is (or was) a regular, high-ranking leader in the Iraqi army.
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:34 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
That would be an unacceptable waste of money when you could just use some novichok and a trip to Salisbury cathedral.

Two at a pinch.
Do you have any idea how much novichok costs? Plus, you'd have to order it from Russia. However, worth visiting Salisbury Cathedral as it has the tallest spire in the world <mumble>.
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:42 PM   #379
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I think main reason is the retaliation for current Iraq demonstration and US embassy attack. Is there even official statement, outside Trump's tweets ?
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:48 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well he's not really just Iraqi general, it's a bit more complicated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Mahdi_al-Muhandis

Just as Soleimani wasn't 'Iranian general' .. he was general of Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. Their goal (besides defending Islamic regime in Iran) is Islamic Shiite state covering all areas with Shiite population. Main means is tactical and material support of different Shiite militias (most of which are considered terrorist organizations) in the area. Including Iraq.
Muhandis simply was IRGC's man in Iraq. Not even secretly. IRGC helped fight ISIS in Iraq. But when that was solved, the next obstacle is USA. Current anti-US protests and attack on US embassy are most likely part of IRGC's advisory. In which case Soleimani is first in command, and Myhandis firs in command in Iraq. So he was by no means bystander.
Exactly on point. Muhandis was, for all practical purposes, an "Iranian" enemy combatant.
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Old 4th January 2020, 01:55 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I think main reason is the retaliation for current Iraq demonstration and US embassy attack. Is there even official statement, outside Trump's tweets ?

btw, I think the "Wag the Dog" theorists should focus on the problems Bibi has, which are much more severe than Trump's "impeachment" worries which are as fake as can be and only happen in a certain "Resistance" media bubble. Just saying, I don't give any merits so far to any of them, although I love the movie.
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Old 4th January 2020, 02:11 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not a physical law. A proposed military operation can meet all the principled requirements, and still be deferred or canceled for other reasons. Commanders are not required to launch every attack that they can justify launching.
Therefore it wasn't a necessity. .
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Old 4th January 2020, 02:21 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Therefore it wasn't a necessity. .
That's not what military necessity refers to. It simply means that when you do decide to attack, you can show that the attack has real military value. That value still has to be weighed against other values, when deciding whether to carry out the attack.

When I say I'm satisfied that the attack is consistent with the principle of military necessity, I'm saying that the attack had real military value. Not that it was a metaphysical requirement that the planners had no choice but to fulfill.

Last edited by theprestige; 4th January 2020 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 4th January 2020, 02:40 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I don't believe there was "imminent" threat... unless information I'm not aware of comes to light. I do believe there was a continuing threat, and Suleimani was critical to it. The question is- was the political price to be paid to high? Or maybe even prohibitive.
Trump does claim this however.

President Donald Trump said Friday that Iranian military leader Gen. Qasem Soleimani was plotting "imminent and sinister attacks" on American diplomats and military personnel
Link

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Old 4th January 2020, 02:52 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Trump does claim this however.

President Donald Trump said Friday that Iranian military leader Gen. Qasem Soleimani was plotting "imminent and sinister attacks" on American diplomats and military personnel
Link

The idea that any plot died with Soleimani is ludicrous. He was, of necessity, part of a team.
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Old 4th January 2020, 03:03 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
btw, I think the "Wag the Dog" theorists should focus on the problems Bibi has, which are much more severe than Trump's "impeachment" worries which are as fake as can be and only happen in a certain "Resistance" media bubble. Just saying, I don't give any merits so far to any of them, although I love the movie.
I think the wag the dog theorists are completely wrong and grasping at straws.

The impeachment charges aren't fake, just limited in scope.
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Old 4th January 2020, 03:06 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Until we know the reasons it was carried out, probably not.
Trump only cares about and acts on things to benefit himself. So the most likely reason is to distract from the impeachment and make himself feel all macho.
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Old 4th January 2020, 03:24 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Just remember who your founders were.
Are cultural ties the reason it wouldn't be legal or a valid mission at Heathrow? How deep do those ties need to be? Is Narita safe, or are the cultural ties there too weak?

I'm asking what factors are controlling for when the US can blow up people in sovereign allied states without permission.
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Old 4th January 2020, 03:29 PM   #389
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Hey, remember when I asked if Mike Pence was accurate regarding those 9/11 connections? Well this old video has been making the rounds. I'm starting to get the sneaking suspicion that it was a mistake to put these people in power.
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Old 4th January 2020, 03:55 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Trump does claim this however.
Trump's claims have about the same weight of credibility as those made by a guy selling a used Chrysler Sebring on Craigslist "for a friend".
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Old 4th January 2020, 03:55 PM   #391
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I am amazed that some people here are trying to defend this outrage. The spuriousness of any and every argument presented here is clearly demonstrated by imagining the roles reversed.

If we are to condone this as an act of war, or as retaliation for actions seen as against national interests, or any other such two-faced crap, well, the same can be said for US actions in that region. What if Iran had bombed a clutch of US military officers dead, netting a few dead officials of allied countries in the process?

This simple what-if-we'd-done-this argument is exactly what Iran itself has been (justifiably and rightly) presenting, repeatedly.

The fact is that this is nothing but a vile act of terrorism, that is being papered over by an equally vile hypocrisy that is no more than people furiously contorting themselves to put a spin on a naked might-is-right argument, trying desperately to complicate and obfuscate a very simple I'm-bigger-than-you schoolyard-bully situation.

This ... outrage, this brutal act of vandalism, this insupportible act of corruption of every moral and ethical principle, is what corrupt politicians, rotten to the core, are using taxpayer money on! Unless this sort of thing is met with a flood of protest and payback (in a legitimate and political sense), then the US is shown up as nothing more than a terrorist state, no different in essence than those cartoon-villain nations in the Middle East.
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Old 4th January 2020, 04:27 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I am amazed that some people here are trying to defend this outrage. The spuriousness of any and every argument presented here is clearly demonstrated by imagining the roles reversed.

If we are to condone this as an act of war, or as retaliation for actions seen as against national interests, or any other such two-faced crap, well, the same can be said for US actions in that region. What if Iran had bombed a clutch of US military officers dead, netting a few dead officials of allied countries in the process?
.
Sometimes reversing the roles doesn’t give the whole picture (we condemn Germany invading France in 1940 but celebrate America invading France in 1944).
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Old 4th January 2020, 04:34 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm satisifed on the following two points:

- Iran is actively engaged in warfare against the US and its allies.

- This man was a senior planner in the Iranian military, and that he was highly effective in that role.
Being satisfied on those two points doesn’t mean that the strike was necessary. As you were pointing to the norms of international law earlier regarding the justification of military strikes, how do you factor in the obvious breach of Iraqi sovereignty and the killing of Iraqi military and militia?
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Old 4th January 2020, 04:35 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Sometimes reversing the roles doesn’t give the whole picture (we condemn Germany invading France in 1940 but celebrate America invading France in 1944).
Okay, but how does that explain how we are to view this?
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Old 4th January 2020, 04:37 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
If we are to condone this as an act of war, or as retaliation for actions seen as against national interests, or any other such two-faced crap, well, the same can be said for US actions in that region. What if Iran had bombed a clutch of US military officers dead, netting a few dead officials of allied countries in the process?
You mean if the US officials were planing attacks on civilians, together with those allied officers ? If those US official were heads of religious army independent on regular US armed forces, only subject to religious leader of the country ?
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Old 4th January 2020, 04:41 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Exactly on point. Muhandis was, for all practical purposes, an "Iranian" enemy combatant.
Meaning what? He was a member of the Iraqi Parliament and a commander of Shia militia against ISIS.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 4th January 2020, 04:43 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The idea that any plot died with Soleimani is ludicrous. He was, of necessity, part of a team.
Assuming Trump is telling the truth, one fewer such threat is a good thing.

But it's Trump, so he's probably lying.
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Old 4th January 2020, 04:52 PM   #398
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
You mean if the US officials were planing attacks on civilians, together with those allied officers ? If those US official were heads of religious army independent on regular US armed forces, only subject to religious leader of the country ?

The first sentence? Absolutely, as long as you temper it to reality.

Plenty of American military officers put food on their family's table by planning acts that result in civilian casualities. If some of these were snuffed out in, say, the UK, along with some UK officials as collateral damage, how'd that be any different?

Tribalism, and might-is-right, are the only two operating principles here. Everything else is obfuscation.
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Old 4th January 2020, 04:55 PM   #399
Dr.Sid
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Assuming Trump is telling the truth, one fewer such threat is a good thing.

But it's Trump, so he's probably lying.
That's the issue. We don't know. It might be all his silly idea. He might also just OK it. For sure, he will want to make it look as his idea. And Democrats will want to use it as much as possible against him.

Of course, sources, upon which such attack was based, are secret. But surely there is some way how opposition can control what army is doing.
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Old 4th January 2020, 05:02 PM   #400
ServiceSoon
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Hey, remember when I asked if Mike Pence was accurate regarding those 9/11 connections? Well this old video has been making the rounds. I'm starting to get the sneaking suspicion that it was a mistake to put these people in power.
As defined by the state department, WMD includes chemical weapons. Those types of weapons were indeed found in Iraq after the US invaded. Source Said weapons were used against American troops between 2004 to 2011. Source
Originally Posted by NY Times
In all, American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs
Furthermore, if you believe that Bush lied about the presence of that specific type of WMD, then you also have to accept that Democratic government officials lied as well, some of whom are still serving in the government today. Guess you cannot trust anybody in government.
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