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#121 |
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Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,959
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#122 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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A lot of stupidity from both sides of the political spectrum in this thread.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#123 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#124 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#125 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
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This is actually a more complex issue than it might appear. Some evidence (if dated) that Iran could launch a significant attack on USA Naval ships:
https://www.newsweek.com/us-defeat-i...r-navy-1429348 A more current and complete discussion of what an open war with Iran might look like: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2...uld-look-like/ I think Iran could easily launch very disruptive operations on middle east oil production and shipping, make the USA's presence in the middle east very costly for us, and achieve propaganda victories even if they cannot achieve true military dominance. Also, and most important, what does the end game look like? What do we hope to achieve when it is all over? USA occupation of Iran? A pro-USA Iran and all terrorist actions ended? Of course Israel is always at risk but they are relatively tough targets and easily angered. I wonder if Iran would much prefer targeting USA interests throughout the world wherever convenient. Especially soft targets. In thinking about it I also wonder if "The role of Iran in causing violence across the Middle East will be highlighted in such a way that it cannot be conveniently ignored." would not earn them more points than they might lose. A lot of people in the world hate the USA and Iran being the face of USA resistance/USA targeting may work to their advantage. |
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#126 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 42,986
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The weakest and strategically most important target for the Iranians is the Straights of Hormuz. Americans may soon see higher has prices. They have shale oil but the rest of the world does not have the same production.
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Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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#127 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,859
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Iran "cannot take on the US militarily" Loss Leader says, but what about with help from Russia and/or China?
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#128 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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I am afraid I am seeing a certain amount of "The Enemy of Enemy Is My Friend" mentality at work in this thread.
I despise Trump, and think his action was ill considered and very dangerous, but too much sympathy for Qassam and his Iranian bosses here. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#129 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#130 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,286
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Unless some other foreign power intervened, it seems clear that the US military could easily destroy the state of Iran, just as it easily destroyed the state of Iraq. Our military is very good at achieving military objectives.
We have never been able to win the peace in these situations. What does a post victory Iran look like? Does anyone have any idea what to do after we've killed all the bad guys? How do we prevent Iran from slipping into a lawless hellscape like all the other places where regime change has failed spectacularly? I think it's pretty clear we could achieve all our military objectives and still come out much worse than we are now, just as we did in Iraq. |
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Gobble gobble |
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#131 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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Iran is a problem from hell for the US.
Iran ,let's be blunt, has been a major sponsor of terrorism in the Mideast from the fall of the Shah, and it's ambitions for sort of a new Islamic Persian Empire are pretty damn apparent. Problem is they have been smart enough, so far, to avoid any action that will bring the wrath of the US down on them and alienate some of their European defenders. They have been very careful to avoid direct attacks on the US. Attacking the US Allies has been their tactic. Question is that might change. I have no love for the Iranian regime whatsoever..ethically I conaider them no better and maybe more dangerous then the Saudis...but don't think military action against them is a smart move. Of course I leave the option to change my mind if Iran is dumb enough to back a 9/11 level attack. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#132 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,375
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I'll just say that it says something about how militaristic US government and society is that candidates even as much as consider starting freaking wars for the purpose of winning votes come re-election, not to mention actually doing it (regardlessly of whether this was the case here).
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#133 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#134 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#135 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#136 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,076
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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#137 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#138 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 26,350
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Still trying to figure out how this idiot that I haven't heard frankly jack about for the last two or three years suddenly became the most dangerous terrorist leader in the whole wide world and killing him was as important as taking out Bin Laden, which is the line that the Administration and the major news networks are pushing on me right now.
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"żWHAT KIND OF BIRD? żA PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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#140 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#141 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#142 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,475
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Trump just made his public statement. He just couldn't help his self-aggrandizing using the phrase 'Under my leadership' twice.
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#143 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,286
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Gobble gobble |
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#144 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,547
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It won't be HIM in bodybag, so he has no reason to stop being gung-ho.
Too much? Only one person did that (Childlike Empress). Everyone else couldn't care less about this guy. Just "u did that too reee" shrieks. No real substance. |
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Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's. |
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#145 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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My vote: Turn it over to the UN and contribute generously to UN peacekeeping efforts.
In some scenarios, I'd favor establishing refugee camps in the conflict zone itself. Provide heavy security for them, and support the refugees' efforts to police themselves, establish a government to their liking, and build up their own militia. Then support the militia as much as necessary to expand the safe zone around the refugee camp, retake the country, and install the refugee government in place of whatever regime they were fleeing from in the first place. Either model is worth trying, in my opinion. I'm definitely not a big fan of transferring large numbers of citizens from a country at war to some other country. People who can fight for their country should fight for their country. We should support them in that, not do it for them. Children, the elderly, and the infirm should be taken to a place of safety until the hostilities end. But men and women of fighting age and ability should be helped to go back and fight. |
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#146 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,859
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Well, maybe one has to turn to Russian analysts to get a sober assessment.
Originally Posted by Al Monitor
So while rather strong statements come from everywhere, the problem is that the international institutions, created to prevent a rogue nation like Nazi Germany from rising again, are seriously broken with some so corrupted by the rogue Empire of our times that they cover-up for its lies and actions. Supported by a media machine that is so gleichgeschaltet that it can remain completely silent on a scandal so profound like the one which has been exposed over recent months with accumulating evidence in recent weeks. I'm talking OPCW and Assad gassing his own people "of course". You heard about that, didn't you? Anyway, something will have to give, and the danger of a hot-headed response by Iran is much smaller IMHO than the one of not addressing this failure of institutions. It is time to sanction the USA, and I'm pretty optimistic that the tools are in an advanced state of development and will soon be presented. |
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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#147 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,859
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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#148 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 5,186
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#149 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#150 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,245
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I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency. On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma. |
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#151 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#152 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,859
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He's been known almost since the revolution. Here's an eulogy from Al Manar, Lebanese outlet close to Hezbollah. |
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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#153 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,352
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#154 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,859
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I agree, closing the Straits for everyone is not something they would do. It's kind of a distraction (not by you, often theorized about of course). But the whole environment is kind of target-rich, and most of the sea- and land-based aircraft carriers are next to huge glass palaces kind of important to "the market". ![]() |
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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#155 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 26,350
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I have heard of him. I knew who he was.
It's the idea that he is quite suddenly the worst terrorist leader in the world who needed to be killed at the first possible chance that I take issue with. The idea that he is so dangerous, it justified a military rocket attack on a busy civilian airport in an allegedly allied country that almost certainly killed innocent bystanders. Can you imagine an US rocket attack on car parked in front of the terminal at de Gaulle? |
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"żWHAT KIND OF BIRD? żA PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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#156 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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Merriam-Webster
Quote:
Quote:
Interesting. |
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#157 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,906
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I did hear about that. Apparently Assad just needs a group hug. And caitlin johnstone needs a laughing dog.
![]() The OPCW concluded only that the gas used (and there was no dispute about some kind of gas being used) was not consistent with Chlorine gas. In short, Assad didn't use Chlorine gas but used another (yet to be identified at the time of the wikileaks dump) gas instead. |
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#158 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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Really, I am not getting that the guy was another Bin Laden from the news coverage (except for Fox News and it's ilk) but it is a major news story which might have huge consequences.
But yeah, Trump is trying to to make the guy sound like Bin Laden and Admiral Yamamoto combined. |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#159 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#160 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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