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#1561 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,627
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#1562 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,810
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#1563 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,810
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#1564 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#1565 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,627
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#1566 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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I don't care about international law as such.
However - - in this case, international law happens to agree more or less with my own view of the topic, and - other people seem to care about it very much, so it seems like a good opportunity to start at a point where we still pretty much agree. Instead, it turns out to be an opportunity for you to insult me. |
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#1567 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,627
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__________________
Please scream inside your heart. |
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#1568 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#1569 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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Again, I apologize. I had forgotten that your position was that killing is immoral but sometimes necessary. It's no more coherent to me now than it was originally. I don't have anything new to say about it, and no real interest in debating it. I apologize for wasting your time.
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#1570 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,627
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I mean okay, I'm more than willing to talk about it if you want, but if you'd like to move on that's fine too.
On the contrary, there's plenty to discuss. For example, I'd like to know what your position is and some of the reasoning behind that position. Yes. I brought the dictionary into it for clarity, and because if I had just spouted some definition without providing some backing for it someone would have accused me of making up the definition. Usually I avoid arguing by dictionary, but in this case what the dictionary provided was a brief and pithy definition that I felt would be extremely clear. |
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#1571 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,810
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I'd like to be that non-violent. But this guy needs to go.
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#1572 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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Good.
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#1573 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,627
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Well, I have been reading the thread, and that's kind of exactly what I did, and I still have questions. Like, for example, what circumstances might make assassination a valid tool for international relations, and the reasoning behind your position.
This, on the other hand, is the part of the discussion that doesn't really need to be prolonged. |
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#1574 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,017
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#1575 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,627
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I disagree. Necessity and morality are unlinked.
If it makes you feel better, killing human beings without their consent is about the only thing that I think can be necessary but immoral, and only under certain very constrained circumstances. Otherwise I'm perfectly normal. |
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#1576 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,859
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#1577 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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I don't consider that to be true at all. I think that necessity brings a lot of exculpatory weight to it.
Wars of choice are usually considered worse than wars of necessity. That's one of the reasons why certain ethical conceptions of Just War invoke necessity. In other circumstances such as stealing bread to feed your hungry children, surely you would accept that the claimed necessity is more exculpatory than say a rich man who steals bread from a poor family to feed the bread to some ducks at the nearby pond. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#1578 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,017
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#1579 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,627
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Yes, I would accept that. But I think taking life is different from that. I don't think there's any such thing as a "just war" except one that you fight to defend yourself against someone else's aggression.
Again, this is not a mainstream opinion, and I accept that most people will not agree with it. It's not a way to define morality at all. It's a statement that I do not think that morality is linked to necessity. I'm not attempting to define morality - that would be a can of worms that I do not intend to open here. |
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#1580 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,396
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Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam. |
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#1581 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,017
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A definition of morality in which the best possible course of action available is immoral is a bad definition of morality. What does it matter if something is immoral, if the best thing you can do is immoral? The whole point of defining morality is to distinguish between what you should do and what you shouldn't do, otherwise what's the point?
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#1582 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
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Oh, never mind...
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#1583 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,396
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__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam. |
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#1584 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,017
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Well, no. The most simplistic morality deals only in absolutes. But the inability to deal with an absolute isn't a feature, it's a bug. And it's only an absolute in the sense that it's the best action available, not in the sense that every aspect of it is positive.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#1585 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 5,215
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#1586 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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#1587 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,396
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The most moral action might require resources currently not available. So choosing the least immoral action possible now still brings the burden of being better prepared next time.
If you could have done better, given planning, then your best moral action is still immoral to some degree. |
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Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam. |
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#1588 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,859
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“Iran Must Begin Acting Like A Normal Nation,” Says Totally Normal Nation
Originally Posted by Caitlin Johnstone
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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#1589 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,544
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Interesting. I can't read the WP articles, but from what I can see, it appears the decision to assassinate General Soleimani was made 6 months ago after the downing of the UAV. It was contingent upon there being a death of a US citizen, and the final decision signed off by POTUS (apparently on 28/12/19).
I think there was an assumption that because of the proximity in time between the death of the US citizen and the assassination that meant there was a strong relationship between some action of Soleimani and the attack on the Iraqi army bases that resulted in the death. It now appears that Soleimani was a hostage for Iran's good behaviour, regardless of his personal involvement in this death. FWIW five other sites were attacked in response to this death and 25 other people killed (presumably with additional injuries), before Soleimani and others were assassinated. Two of the sites attacked were in Syria so arguably would be of little direct threat to US military. |
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#1590 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,544
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The problem is we cannot foresee the consequences of our actions. Arguably the consequence of assassinating Soleimani was the deaths of 170 people on board of the airliner that was accidentally shot down. I think many people would agree if there had not been the assassination followed by the heightened rhetoric with threats of imminent direct US air attacks on Iran the airliner would not have been shot down. So we take a 'least' immoral action which we think will potentially save dozens of lives, but actually costs 170+. So does an action that had the consequence of causing 170 innocent deaths now become more immoral? If you follow a Utilitarian rule then it is. As has been pointed out shooting down civilian airliners at a time of heightened tension is not unknown, and the US military should know this better than most, so this was an unlikely, but not unknown or unpredictable outcome.
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#1591 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,017
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#1592 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,959
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Can the freshman philosophy derails be split to a separate thread in Religion and Philosophy?
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#1593 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 627
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I think you are misguided in this belief. The dictatorship does not care about making people align with their views, because they are a dictatorship. If they want to have a video of people trampling over a flag, they will just go ahead and make a video of people trampling over a flag. The reality is that they are perfectly content with letting the average Iranian live their lives how they wish as long as they are not causing any 'trouble'. Most Iranians live out their lives without ever coming into contact with the police/religious police. The alternative is too taxing from a logistical and management perspective.
The people of Iran are and have always been overwhelmingly pro-US and pro-Europe (albeit unitedly anti-trump). They reflect the government's mood when the Iranian government said 'We are for the US people but against Trump'. If it was a picture of Trump on the floor you would see people willingly walk all over it. But not walking over a US flag does not reflect a new zeitgeist. |
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#1594 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,544
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I sympathise, but if we are discussing whether the assassination was justified morally because it saved lives, I think we can diverge a little into the consequences. I think the evidence was this was primarily a politically expedient act for home (US) consumption. It was not legally justifiable as preventing an immediate threat. It probably gained little diplomatic benefit, and I suspect little military benefit.
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#1595 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,130
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I think you make a good point that may be missed.
Sometimes your best decision is to do something that is wrong. Don't compound that wrong by trying to find some way to justify it, accept that it is wrong. You can decide to assassinate someone one knowing it is wrong to assassinate someone because it is the only/best/one of a limited choices you have. I really have problems when people try to justify wrongs. |
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#1596 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,130
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This sounds like the torture hypotheticals. This really isn't the gotcha some people like to think it is.
Now I'm not a pacifist - I know I'm simply not brave and tough enough- so I'm not one to say we should never use violence against someone. With that in mind, within your unrealistic hypothetical yes it would remain immoral to kill the person. And yes I would kill him. |
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#1597 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,998
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#1598 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,017
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You have that exactly wrong. Dictatorships require that you publicly align your views with them. You can keep private views separate, but publicly you have to support, or claim to support, the regime.
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#1599 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,126
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#1600 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,352
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