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Tags Iran incidents , Qasem Soleimani , Trump controversies , US-Iran relations

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Old 3rd January 2020, 02:31 PM   #161
smartcooky
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I warned some time ago that this useless dickhead in the White House was going to get the US into a shooting war with Iran. This gets them a LOT closer. Anyone who thinks Iran will be a walkover like Saddam is living in fantasyland. Iran can, and will, do a lot of damage to the US. Trump's total lack of even the remotest understanding of foreign affairs is going to cost the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of US sons and daughters.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 02:31 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
"Wag the Dog" has always been one of my most overrated movies. Its' a film that is not anywhere near as clever or witty or daring as it thinks it is.

Amen. It's painful to watch.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 02:32 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
And it conveniently gets the news about the unredacted emails directly implicating Trump in the Ukraine scandal off the radar...imagine that...the warmonger uses war to distract the media from his treasonous crimes.

Also important to note as I did in my thread on the topic that he froze out the Democrats from the planning process AGAIN.
At least my local news cutoff Trump's speech about this after a couple minutes.

But then I haven't seen the mainstream TV news yet.

Besides in print media, I've only seen these un-redacted emails addressed in an excellent conference on CSPAN2 by a couple legal scholars discussing the Impeachment.

Impeachment Discussion with Law Professors
Quote:
Law professors talk about the impeachment of President Trump in a panel discussion hosted by the Association of American Law Schools.
It was excellent and worth people's time to watch which you can do free online. The transcript is also there.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 02:33 PM   #164
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Deleted - Duplicate.

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Old 3rd January 2020, 02:39 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I did hear about that. Apparently Assad just needs a group hug. And caitlin johnstone needs a laughing dog.

The OPCW concluded only that the gas used (and there was no dispute about some kind of gas being used) was not consistent with Chlorine gas. In short, Assad didn't use Chlorine gas but used another (yet to be identified at the time of the wikileaks dump) gas instead.

Well pal, the article I've linked is packed with further links for anyone interested to explore what the mighty Wurlitzer is covering up. I hope for you that you are just lazily misinformed by the Brown Noses (paid by the Empire) junk, because then you can explore for yourself, come back, apologize and inform your fellow propaganda victims. That's what you would do, isn't it?

edit: Reading your sorry paragraph again, no, you didn't even read Brown Noses (aka Bellingcat). You are just completely clueless.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:00 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Broken clock, twice a day, etc.
Nominated.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:01 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
....

Are we seriously ginning up a war because Iran killed some military contractor? Who gives a **** if he was an American, he was a literal mercenary.
Do you seriously need an answer?
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:10 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I warned some time ago that this useless dickhead in the White House was going to get the US into a shooting war with Iran. This gets them a LOT closer. Anyone who thinks Iran will be a walkover like Saddam is living in fantasyland. Iran can, and will, do a lot of damage to the US. Trump's total lack of even the remotest understanding of foreign affairs is going to cost the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of US sons and daughters.
We're already in a shooting war with Iran. Have been for decades.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:14 PM   #169
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The resulting thread will not just be to military personnel. Every American in the area will be a potential target. I'm thinking mostly of media reporters especially, as they will be present and exposed more than most civilians.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:21 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Millions? I doubt it.

People who were on board with Iran's shenanigans will still be on board. No change there. People who weren't on board are probably happier with him dead than not. I suppose there might be a few who switch sides, but I'm pretty sure the "millions" have already chosen their sides in this conflict.

And killing senior leadership, even by ones and twos (is there any other way?) is almost always a good investment in warfare. What's interesting is that modern warfare makes it a lot easier to do.

"On board" or not doesn't have anything to do with it. That's just rhetorical poisoning the well.

I'm not comfortable with using assassination as a government. There was a time when Congress thought so as well.

Playing footsie with the definition of "warfare" as opposed to 'at war' doesn't change the fact that we killed another country's official (a country with whom we are not 'at war' in any legal or diplomatic sense) in a third country that was our ally at least in name.

An official who was legally in that country.

You have provided a very facile justification for assassination as a tool of government policy.

I'll be interested to see how you react if (or, more probably, when) it is employed by some government you are not in favor of.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:22 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Looks like it might get ugly. We should invade Iraq and replace their leader with someone more compliant. A "preemptive strike" if you will.

Again?
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:26 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
<snip>

I have no love for the Iranian regime whatsoever..ethically I conaider them no better and maybe more dangerous then the Saudis...but don't think military action against them is a smart move.
Of course I leave the option to change my mind if Iran is dumb enough to back a 9/11 level attack.

They don't even need to do that. Somebody else entirely could do it, and we could just blame them for it.

It's a technique we've used before.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:27 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Again?
Fifth time's the charm.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:28 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Containment assumes a great deal of restraint that the US has not historically shown. So long as we have our military poised at the border, the risk of warhawks chickenhawks converting containment into invasion is very high.

FTFY.

And I agree.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:30 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
The resulting thread will not just be to military personnel. Every American in the area will be a potential target. I'm thinking mostly of media reporters especially, as they will be present and exposed more than most civilians.
Americans in the area are already potential targets. Iran is already engaging in proxy wars and supporting terrorist insurgencies throughout the region. They're already planning their attacks, and they're still going to carry them out as planned. It's not like they were being peaceful until this incident riled them up.

Whatever attacks against Americans and their allies in the region are attributed to this, I'm pretty confident they were were going to be planned and carried out regardless. Probably by this guy, and probably better, if we'd let him live.

Also, what's with all the apologetics for a regime that retaliates against a military strike on a senior commander by murdering members of the press?

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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:30 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We're already in a shooting war with Iran. Have been for decades.

We could say the same thing about Saudi Arabia, and for pretty much the same reasons.

Maybe we should assassinate a few Saudi royals when they go to somebody else's country.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:33 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I find myself feeling incredibly ill informed. There's US troops sitting halfway across the world doing something or another, but I'm really not sure what. Now, there have been protests, and so a US airstrike takes out an Iranian general in Iraq.

My first question was, "What was an Iranian general doing in Iraq?" If the answer was any variation on "conducting a war", it's hard to get too bent out of shape about him becoming a casualty. That happens in war.

On the other hand, I would like to think this was part of a well thought out course of action, as opposed to some sort of knee jerk, "They can't do that. Find me someone to kill!" reaction from our president.

The whole thing seems very sad. I always wonder why people think these things are so important that they have to hang out killing each other. Can't we just give everyone internet service so they can play chess or watch porn or view cat videos? It seems like a better life than smuggling rocket propelled grenades.
What are the US forces doing in Afghanistan? What are Russian troops doing in Syria?

More than a few countries have their forces in other countries.

https://apnews.com/5597ff0f046a67805cc233d5933a53ed
Quote:
As the head of the Quds, or Jersualem, Force of Iran’s paramilitary Revolutionary Guard, Soleimani led all of its expeditionary forces and frequently shuttled between Iraq, Lebanon and Syria. Quds Force members have deployed into Syria’s long war to support President Bashar Assad, as well as into Iraq in the wake of the 2003 U.S. invasion that toppled dictator Saddam Hussein, a longtime foe of Tehran.

Soleimani rose to prominence by advising forces fighting the Islamic State group in Iraq and in Syria on behalf of the embattled Assad.
This happened in Baghdad by the airport suggesting he wasn't off in the hills with a rebel force.

It might be useful to have a list that distinguishes between 'fighting forces' and 'stabilizing forces' if there is a difference.

It might help all of us see the bigger picture.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:34 PM   #178
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Statement by Trump

Well, "Resistance", I think we can all hear in his voice that he knows he "dun goofed up". I suspect the fact that he was fooled into this moronic act is much more detrimental to his survival than all the Russia and Ukraine hoaxes combined. You should celebrate.

Unbelievable the junk he tells, retweeted before that Soleimani killed "603 American Servicemen", not 602, not 604, with no evidence. And claims again that he was the one who defeated ISIS while common wisdom has it that it was Putin, and real knowledge knows that it was actually Soleimani if any one person should be named. How bizarre.

The Katheib Hezbollah forces that were bombed in retaliation to the one US mercenary killed 500 kilometers away, which lead to the run on the embassy that was used as excuse for the assassination, were exactly in the region and with the task to defeat the last ISIS cells that are roaming around the border region between Syria and Iraq after they lost all territory control in late 2017.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:34 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Amen. It's painful to watch.
"Wag the Dog" makes all it's satiric points in the first ten minutes of the film, and then repeats them for the rest of the film ad bloody,endless infinatum.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:36 PM   #180
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I like how theprestige insists nothing at all changed, so there is nothing to worry about whatsoever, no siree!

I guess according to him there is no difference between proxy war in background and open war with Iran.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:36 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We could say the same thing about Saudi Arabia, and for pretty much the same reasons.

Maybe we should assassinate a few Saudi royals when they go to somebody else's country.
I'm not following you. Saudi Arabia? I thought they were pretty much on our team. The government at least.


I have no idea whether or not assassinating this guy was either justified or a good idea. However, he was orchestrating a war, wasn't he? He was a soldier. he was killed in the line of duty. That's what happens to soldiers. I don't see any problem actually attacking the generals instead of the privates.


To emphasize, I'm not saying it was a good idea. I simply don't know enough to make that judgment. However, I can't get too bent out of shape about it. When you get into wars, people die.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:37 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Can you point to those news?
Darn, I'm on page one now that there's a merge. Not sure if this was answered but here it is:

https://www.justsecurity.org/67863/e...egal-concerns/


I'm skipping up to page 4.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:45 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Iran has no intention of waging a conventional war against the US. I think terrorism of some sort will be their retaliation.
...
At least, no doubt, that's what Trump is counting on.

The unknown factor here however is Trump's pathologic narcissism. Everything he does he compares to Obama because his obsession with revenge over a couple jokes at the WH Correspondence Dinner knows no bounds.

Trump has to retaliate with more force than Obama did, or something like that.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:46 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We could say the same thing about Saudi Arabia, and for pretty much the same reasons.

Maybe we should assassinate a few Saudi royals when they go to somebody else's country.
Or a few of their top military commanders when they travel in theater to meet with and coordinate insurgents? I'd be okay with that.

In fact, while the uniformed military leadership of Saudi Arabia is not directly linked to Saudi-sourced terrorism, I'm pretty sure that we do have a policy of shooting Saudi terrorist leaders whenever we do catch them sticking their necks out.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:48 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"On board" or not doesn't have anything to do with it. That's just rhetorical poisoning the well.

I'm not comfortable with using assassination as a government. There was a time when Congress thought so as well.

Playing footsie with the definition of "warfare" as opposed to 'at war' doesn't change the fact that we killed another country's official (a country with whom we are not 'at war' in any legal or diplomatic sense) in a third country that was our ally at least in name.

An official who was legally in that country.

You have provided a very facile justification for assassination as a tool of government policy.

I'll be interested to see how you react if (or, more probably, when) it is employed by some government you are not in favor of.

It depends on the circumstances, really...as does everything.
I think what Trump did was pretty extreme step that should only be taken if there is compelling evidence the guy was indeed planning major terrorist attacks on the United States. If he was a la Bin Laden, then IMHO It amounts to an act of war against the US and military strike is justified.
But I am seeing no such evidence coming from Trump, probably because there is none.
I think a blanket ban on this kind of action is foolish, but it should be a last resort.or carried out against somebody you really have the goods on, like BIn Laden.

But then I am not a pacifist, see my signature.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:49 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Boris Johnson not told about US airstrike



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50981719
BoJo was not told? And there he was thinking he was Donny's new Best Friend. Bloody bastard.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:50 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* Because when you're bombing an area with friendlies in it, it's generally a good idea to tell the friendlies.

The UK is our alley. They potentially had troops in the area that was bombed.
Freudian slip?
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:50 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
At least, no doubt, that's what Trump is counting on.

The unknown factor here however is Trump's pathologic narcissism. Everything he does he compares to Obama because his obsession with revenge over a couple jokes at the WH Correspondence Dinner knows no bounds.

Trump has to retaliate with more force than Obama did, or something like that.
I don't give Trump that much credit,frankly. I think he acted hastily without much thought.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:53 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who's the local expert, and what's his expertise?

I cited General Stanley McChrystal, also an expert in these matters, saying that this guy is a major player in Iran's strategy in the region, and killing him creates a leadership gap that Iran will not easily fill.
Exactly. Make no mistake, it is the Generals who really run a country.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:53 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I warned some time ago that this useless dickhead in the White House was going to get the US into a shooting war with Iran. This gets them a LOT closer. Anyone who thinks Iran will be a walkover like Saddam is living in fantasyland. Iran can, and will, do a lot of damage to the US. Trump's total lack of even the remotest understanding of foreign affairs is going to cost the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of US sons and daughters.
THIS.
As I said, I am shedding no tears over Suleiman's death...guy has plenty of blood on his hands....but this was a incredibly stupid and ill thought out action. I don't see what it gains the US, frankly.
If anything it helps Iran..which is a Bad Thing.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:54 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Really, I am not getting that the guy was another Bin Laden from the news coverage (except for Fox News and it's ilk) but it is a major news story which might have huge consequences.
CNBC tweeted this morning that "America just took out the world's no. 1 bad guy".
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:54 PM   #192
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm not following you. Saudi Arabia? I thought they were pretty much on our team. The government at least.

The government that had a U.S. journalist kidnapped in a foreign country and chopped into pieces in their embassy?

Quote:
I have no idea whether or not assassinating this guy was either justified or a good idea. However, he was orchestrating a war, wasn't he? He was a soldier. he was killed in the line of duty. That's what happens to soldiers. I don't see any problem actually attacking the generals instead of the privates.

We used to have a slightly different set of rules and protocols about that. Like formal declarations, fields of combat, and other silly trivialities.

I'm not comfortable with the idea that any government figure, even military ones, can be designated as fair game by any country who decides that they are in enough of a state of war with someone else to kill them wherever they want.


Quote:

To emphasize, I'm not saying it was a good idea. I simply don't know enough to make that judgment. However, I can't get too bent out of shape about it. When you get into wars, people die.

And I don't suppose you'll be too bent out of shape if one of our generals gets taken out at some airport in Kuwait. Or Turkey.

Right?
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:55 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think a invasion of Iran would be a massive piece of idiocy,think containment is the only way to go.
I just think the consquences of a total US withdrawal like you advocate would be so bad we would end up having to go in again....
And there's little to no chance any EU or UK forces would join us, especially after the Iraq debacle.

Iran: 16th in military power.

17th in manpower.

24th in airpower.

4th in total navel strength. (Notice N Korea -1st; and China - 2nd on that page.)


Bottom line, Iran is not Iraq and a war would be absolutely ignorant. But some of us believe Trump is ignorant. No doubt he believes he could order a couple nukes and think there would be few consequences.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 03:59 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I saw news about Ayatollah Ali Khamenei vowing revenge but it displayed a picture of Ayatollah Khomeini who died 30 years ago.
Khamenei Shamenei <shrug>
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Old 3rd January 2020, 04:02 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Or a few of their top military commanders when they travel in theater to meet with and coordinate insurgents? I'd be okay with that.

Yeah. Trump should have done it that way. I agree.

Too bad he didn't.

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In fact, while the uniformed military leadership of Saudi Arabia is not directly linked to Saudi-sourced terrorism, I'm pretty sure that we do have a policy of shooting Saudi terrorist leaders whenever we do catch them sticking their necks out.

By hitting them in other countries' civilian airports with missiles from drones?

When have we done that?
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Old 3rd January 2020, 04:13 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't give Trump that much credit,frankly. I think he acted hastily without much any thought.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 04:17 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The government that had a U.S. journalist kidnapped in a foreign country and chopped into pieces in their embassy?
Not a "US journalist".

A Saudi national who sometimes published in US media. Not that this justifies what they did. Just be honest about what they actually did.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 04:26 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The government that had a U.S. journalist kidnapped in a foreign country and chopped into pieces in their embassy?
Not an official government action...….though rumor has it.

Monarchies kind of suck. However, that isn't the point. You said we had been in a shooting war with Saudi Arabia. I don't think that's in any way accurate.



Quote:
We used to have a slightly different set of rules and protocols about that. Like formal declarations, fields of combat, and other silly trivialities.
Those were the days.

Quote:
I'm not comfortable with the idea that any government figure, even military ones, can be designated as fair game by any country who decides that they are in enough of a state of war with someone else to kill them wherever they want.
But wasn't this guy doing exactly that? The "government figures" he was taking out were regular old soldiers, but he was still engaged in attacking and killing them. I'm ok with attacking generals instead of privates.



Quote:
And I don't suppose you'll be too bent out of shape if one of our generals gets taken out at some airport in Kuwait. Or Turkey.

Right?
It would be an act of war, just like this assassination was. How to respond? That's up to (God help us) the president.


I would say "and his advisors", but I don't think this one listens to advisors unless they tell him what he wants to hear.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 04:27 PM   #199
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not a "US journalist".

A Saudi national who sometimes published in US media. Not that this justifies what they did. Just be honest about what they actually did.

I didn't say he was a U.S. national. He was a Saudi national who moved to the U.S. in 2017 and worked for the the Washington Post as a regular columnist for two years, before the Saudis had him snatched and killed him in their consulate.

That makes him a U.S. journalist as far as I'm concerned.

You've stretched much smaller points much farther in your time. I'm surprised you find this all that much of a reach.
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Old 3rd January 2020, 04:27 PM   #200
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My wife just saw (on Facebook, so big grain of salt) that two USN submarines have left the base on Hood Canal and passed through the bridge. This was supposed to have been about three hours ago so they should be passing our house before long. We've never seen two at a time in more than 20 years.
It's more than 10,000 nautical miles to the Persian Gulf, but they could be replacing some on patrol more nearby.
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