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#201 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 3,136
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War is just a continuation of twitter discussion:
https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/stat...01034871279616 Especially note: 1st: You can't do anything |
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#202 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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#203 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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It depends on what happens.
To begin with , how strong Iran is on a worldwide level is sort of meaningless. What matters is how strong it is in terms of the Middle East. And there it's pretty damn strong. And if Iran was dumb enough to launch a full scale invasion of the Persian GUld state, the Euros probably would intereven a la 1990 because that woule directly threaten their economies. But I doubt Iran would be foolish enough to go that route. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#204 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,999
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It's the total lack of evidence that the guy posed a clear and present danger to the US or US Citizens that makes me think this move was extremely stupid and ill thought out.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#205 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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That's literally exactly what he did. The Iranians sent one of their top military commanders to one of their critical theaters of operation, to meet with troops on the ground and coordinate their efforts. And when they did, the US took the shot. As one does, when one has a shot at an enemy commander.
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Obama raided Pakistan to take out Bin Laden. I'm satisfied with that precedent, but even without it I still think this was a legitimate attack at a reasonable time and place. I hope you're not imagining that "Baghdad Airport" means they droned him right in the middle of a crowded passenger concourse or something. |
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#206 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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#207 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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Okay, so what's your solution? Iran is actively engaged in proxy wars and terrorist insurgency against the US, its allies, and its interests in the Middle East.
What kind of formal declaration would you like to see? What rules and protocols? What other silly trivialities? Me, I think that since a state of war obviously exists, it's more important to fight it than to write it down on official letterhead. Killing enemy commanders when you can seems like an obvious strategem in the current scenario. Or do you think that Iran should enjoy all the benefits of being at war with the US, and none of the drawbacks, just because they were clever enough to not make it "official"? (Actually I'm pretty sure the Iranian government has made it official.)
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#208 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,859
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There are no interests of the US (meaning its citizens) in the "middle east". You don't even need their oil anymore. Iran would be perfectly fine with you just pissing off to your own continent after countless decades and leaving them alone, So would be all of its neighbours. Ami go home! (maybe it is 5D chess by Trump after all?) |
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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#209 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,924
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So this happened in Iraq. We are not at war with Iraq. Iraq works with the Iranian military and openly endorses Iranian backed militia, which Suleimani has commanded.
So if an Iranian general visited a neutral nation, could be kill them there too? Even if the host country objected (like Iraq has done here)? Could we kill them in Germany, France? What about a country that is more neutral to us? That's what gets me. Had this happened in Syria against an Iranian general fighting our Kurdish allies, I might not have objected - we don't pretend to respect any legitimacy of the Syrian government in that conflict. Had Israel killed an Iranian general working with Hezbollah or Hamas to shoot missiles into Israel, that might have been a thing. But in this case, we killed a man who was there with the legal permission of a government we claim to respect, a government that we set up. Is the legality of the Iraqi government meaningless? |
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#210 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 26,139
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Good grief. Not that tired old whine. Did I say something that suggested I had a "solution"? No I didn't. And I didn't say anything to lead you to suspect I might offer one. I think this particular move, assassination, was a mistake. A bad idea. I think where it was done was a bad idea. I think when it was done was a bad idea. I think why it was done was a bad idea. That's all. Don't try and turn it into something you can argue with beyond that. I'm not interested in your games. |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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#211 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,504
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__________________
I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
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#212 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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It's a forum for discussing US policy. Pros, cons, missteps, desired changes. It's not a whine at all to ask you what your preferred policy is. Especially after I've told you what my preferred policy is.
If your preference is to call out problems, without providing solutions and without accepting discussion or dissent, then I recommend starting a blog, disabling comments, and staying off Twitter. |
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#213 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,810
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#214 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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#215 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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#216 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,870
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#217 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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Iran is at war already. Stop pretending they're not.
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Do you think Iran should continue to attack US interests and allies throughout the middle east without any retaliation or escalation? |
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#218 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,859
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Interesting comment from Patrick Lang, veteran military intelligence and host of a blog for his fellow veteran military intelligence people. True patriot, right to the point:
Originally Posted by Patrick Lang
People unfamiliar with that kind of view might want to read the comments below the article - I won't as I already know what they will say, but think I'm able to predict that you will learn more from a single written line than you will from a complete segment of the horrible talking heads you think you have to allow into your living room. |
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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#219 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 26,139
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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#220 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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Does it matter? It's clear that military planners and observers have known about this guy for years, and that several administrations - not just Trump's - have been tracking him and looking for an opportunity to kill him. Just because you didn't hear about him until yesterday doesn't mean that Trump invented him yesterday to distract you from whatever it is you think you should be paying attention to instead. Though, you're here, paying attention to this, so I guess it's working?
Anyway, why not go for broke, and suggest that Trump conspired with Putin, who conspired with the Iranian regime, who conspired to put this guy in harm's way so that Trump could kill him as a distraction? |
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#221 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 26,139
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I really couldn't care less what your preferred policy is. I never asked you for it.
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I was "discussing" my feelings about this particular assassination. Nothing more. If you want to go beyond that, fine. But you have no reason to believe I should feel compelled to go there with you. I'm sure you'll find plenty of takers wherever you go. You needn't feel put upon that I am not among them. |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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#222 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,810
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#223 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 30,662
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Dunno. I fell asleep (on purpose, cat said it was nap time) so I never saw them if they went by and now it's dark.
And of course, they are submarines. Normally they go by quite slowly accompanied by multiple escorting vessels. But if they've ever gone out submerged, we wouldn't have seen them anyhow. I don't know if they can actually navigate the Strait of Juan de Fuca submerged, but I'm sure they know. |
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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#224 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,002
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We have always been at war with Oceania!
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In my opinion, the response of the US to the alleged Iranian responsibility of assaulting the US diplomatic services in Iraq should be smarter than firing missiles at Baghdad international airport. I would be interested to know more about the actual circumstances here, but on the face of it that looks pretty astonishing. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#225 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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In my opinion, all of the following posts either state the premise outright, or else express a conclusion that depends on that premise.
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#226 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 435
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I believe General Qasem Soleimani was in Baghdad on an official visit to attend the funeral of the Iraqis murdered by the US on the 29th.
The more important question is, "What are we doing in Iraq?" As a matter of fact, what are we doing in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Bahrain, Djibouti, Oman, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates etc? And those are just off the top of my head. The war in Iraq was completely based on lies. I think this is one of the few times in history when a war was a complete fabrication. There is always a certain amount of chicanery going on in any war, but usually there is an element of truth. But not with the Iraq Attaq of 2003. It was entirely a fake war. Even though the war was a complete fraud we have been there for the better part of two decades now. In fact, we have been bombing Iraq on and off for the past 30 years! The war mongers, war criminals and war profiteers that comprise Conservatism Inc. and the neo-liberal establishment want us to believe that killing one general will help to transform the Middle-East. If we kill enough baddies the Middle-East will become as placid and as well-governed as the American Midwest. Nope. |
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pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?" Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!" |
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#227 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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Not true. We haven't always been at war with Iran, either. But we have definitely been at war with Iran since long before yesterday.
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My position is that military action should adhere to the principles of military necessity, distinction, and proportionality. My understanding is that this action was consistent with those principles. As far as I know, there's nothing currently going on in Tehran that would justify a nuclear bomb, according to those principles. |
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#228 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,399
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Qasem Soleimani: Strike was to 'stop war', says Trump
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#229 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 24,827
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#230 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24,619
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Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting. |
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#231 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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That doesn't seem even remotely analogous to the current situation. Iraq is a battleground where both US and Iranian forces and allies are operating. It makes sense for generals to be there, and to be at risk there.
Though, if Iran is able to find a US general in Canada or Mexico, they're welcome to take a shot at him. Us being at war with Iran, and all. |
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#232 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,745
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"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
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#233 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,745
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__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
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#234 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
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#235 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,810
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__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#236 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,504
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Nope, not a real shooting war.
You might have been in a phoney shooting war, where both sides rattle their bayonets and make scary sounding threats, but beyond the occasional raid, you haven't been in one thus far In Operation Desert Storm (1st PGW), and Operation Iraqi Freedom (2nd PGW), you had deployed troops on the ground, with heavy armour and artillery and extensive air cover. Two sides shooting at each other and dead people; 30-55 thousand killed in the first one, 60,000 in the second one and those include almost 5,000 Americans across both of them. That was what a real shooting war looks like; battlefields, burning tanks and APCs, dead soldiers and civilians; lots and lots of dead soldiers and civilians, and those two will look like a cakewalk if the US tries to take on Iran in the same way. Iraq had about 50,000 professional soldiers (the Republican Guard). The rest were poorly equipped, poorly motivated conscripts. However, in the case of Iran, they can put up half a million, well equipped, highly trained, highly motivated professional soldiers. Iran has the 8th biggest armed forces in the world - that is a far more terrifying prospect for US forces to deal with than the mere skirmishes that were the two Gulf Wars. |
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I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
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#237 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
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The most important lesson we were supposed to learn from the Vietnam war was not to go to war unless we knew what an obtainable victory would look like. Basically, what did we want to achieve? How do we end it?
I will give a George Bush #1 credit for having a clearly defined goal when he pushed Iraq back out of Kuwait. To some extent we also had a specific goal of eliminating the power of the Taliban in Afghanistan, just a poor appreciation of of what to do after that. George Bush #2 and Iraq? No clear end game at all. And the quagmire since then only expands and continues... So what will a realistic victory look like against Iran now? |
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#238 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,625
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#240 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,504
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Given the current administration's record with facts and truth, I would say that about 0% of it is true. FFS, Pence can't even get the number of terrorists right!
If any of this BS was even remotely true, we would have all heard about it loud and long for the last 10 years or more from Iran Hawks like John Bolton. What we have actually heard? Crickets |
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I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
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