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#281 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,781
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#282 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,920
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I do wonder who Trump is working for.
Because in 1 fell swoop he's allowed the Iranian government to use this to solidify internal support, strengthening it's position, allow Iran to play the victim of a ruthless bully giving it local and possibly larger support (Maybe Russia and China will start openly buying their oil again?), given the Iranian supporters in Iraq a nice cause to drive the country away from the US politically and at the same time given many individual terrorists a new motive, most likely increasing the chance of retaliatory attacks against civilians. I doubt any terrorist or mullah would ever have been that successful in strengthening Iran's position on purpose. |
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#283 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,966
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You know how Trump didn't warn the UK? Well, you know who he did warn?
Russia & Israel Know who else? Random people who happened to be at Mar-A-Largo |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#284 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,319
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The biggest problem is that the Trump administration hasn't articulated a clear strategy with regards to Iran or shown any consistency in its actions.
If Trump announced a removal of the sanctions that affect ordinary Iranian citizens every time he has a high-ranking Iranian military leader killed, it might actually help with changing the Regime in Tehran. But like this, it is just helping the Regime justify its oppression whilst pushing Iraq further away and towards Iran. |
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Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam. |
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#285 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,060
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#286 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,060
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Totally disagree, Iran has done all it can to further what it considers its interests. If they could have done more they would have already have done more.
Regardless of whether you think this particular act was right or wrong you have to agree that Iran had always done what it can to further its interests since the 1979 revolution (or what the leader believes is its interests) regardless of international laws and international acceptable behaviour. It is a terrible regime that has caused immense harm to its own country and to many others outside its borders, often in direct military action or via proxies. From what I know so far on balance whilst I don't agree with the action I can see how it could have a positive benefit in reducing Iranian sponsored proxies. As ever in these types of conflicts the people at the top are not exposed to personal danger. This does send a message saying that the Americans are willing to act the same way as the Iranians would and try to kill the higher echelons whenever possible. That may make those at the top more wary regardless of their public rants. |
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#287 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,060
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This is one of things I'd like to know more about before I can really decide whether the actions was overall the best action to have taken.
According to several reports I've listened to he often travelled in the ME, he was not a reclusive shadowy figure. So why was the action taken now? I can't see that he would be directly involved in any planned terrorist activity so can't see it would stop any imminent attack. Was it in retaliation to the embassy attack? Wouldn't the administration have simply said so if that was the case. |
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#288 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 3,131
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#289 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,717
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"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills |
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#290 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,966
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Well, if we subscribe to the theory that Trump accuses others of what he himself is doing, then there are a fairly large number of tweets and interview segments where he accuses Obama of imminently attacking Iran because he's worried about being re-elected and wants to "look tough".
With other administrations I'd assume a certain degree of long-term thought and strategic consideration had gone in to the decision. With this administration I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was about impeachment. |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#291 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 24,747
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That's the thing about this administration that I absolutely loathe.
Other presidents have done things that seemed like a very bad idea, but I always assume that there must be a great deal of thought that went into them. I always assumed that advisers were consulted, that there was a review, that while it may ultimately be the president's decision, there were a lot of professionals involved, and at least some of them were urging the president to take action. With this president, I think he might have seen Iran's tweet saying "There's nothing you can do", and that threatened his ego, and decided he was going to show them who was boss. How did Hillary Clinton put it? Something like, "The nuclear button shouldn't be in the hands of a man who can be baited with a tweet." I hope it works out. I have no idea whether it was a good idea or not. I have no idea if this was a contingency that had been contemplated for a while, or just an impulsive reaction by a guy who wanted to make sure that this was nothing at all like Benghazi. I know that I am not confident in our leadership. |
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#292 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,966
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Well, we here in the UK are about to go through Brexit and we're currently in the process of desperately trying to negotiate trade deals with other countries - particularly the US - from a position of weakness. All the US needs to do is make some part of some deal contingent on sending troops to Iraq/Iran, and the UK may well comply.
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#293 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,966
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The differences I see here are firstly that Trump is not interested in a diplomatic solution, and secondly that this particular action puts Iran into a position where they likely believe they cannot fail to retaliate. How weak would they look if they just let the US get away with this without any kind of response?
I'm no expert, but I don't see a path to deescalation. |
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#294 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,966
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#295 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,212
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#296 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,212
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#297 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,212
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#298 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,212
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Ignoring for the moment the pros and cons of the current situation, taking out an army general is actually a good tactic in a war. Kill the foot soldiers or the cavalry - there are many thousands more coming up at the rear. Bring down the generals or the field marshall and straight away you have taken out the guys who determine military strategy. These are the guys who are key to how a battle or war is fought. So yeah, in the scheme of the Art of War, taking out a leading general is perfectly logical and sound, with minimal collatoral.
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#299 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,212
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#300 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,212
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My crazy paranoid thought is that Boris Johnson is lying low (on holiday in the Caribbean) not making a public statement (yet) which is VERY unusual for a UK PM in a major world event because:
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#301 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,093
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#302 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,966
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#303 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,530
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#304 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 425
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I don't know BrooklynBaby's take on it, but in other forums I have seen people literally argue that:
When Trump does X, it's ok because Obama also did X. When Obama did X, it was the worst thing anyone ever did and no liberals complained. Trump doing X is great, because liberals complain about Trump doing it but not when Obama did. |
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#305 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,825
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A jolly good trip down "Let's list off everything bad, dirty, questionable, wrong, evil thing that Iran and America have done to each other" lane helps no possible version of this scenario.
Every time Iran or America ask for some concession or way move forward the other side will always be able to, honestly, pull the "Yeah but whatabouta da time..." card. To what end and for what purpose though? Iran and America can't go back and time and make those things to have never happened. Are we doomed to never improve our relations because if we do it will leave those things "unpaid" for? This nihilistic bullcrap where long, complicated, in some cases multi-generational or even longer conflicts are philosophically doomed to continue perpetuity because both sides have committed so much against the other they can never erase the red from their ledgers seems rather defeatist to me. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#306 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,530
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In what way is fighting against an occupying army that invaded your (Iraq) country for no good reason terrorism? Attacking US forces in Iraq is legitimate resistance. This is the type of thing that the US supported against Cuba, in Afghanistan against the Russians etc. It is only regarded as terrorism by US citizens because it is an attack on US occupying forces.
Given the teack record of the US (e.g. overthrowing the democratically elected Iranian government), Iran had a legitimate concern about US forces on its border. Talk of a new Persian empire is US fantasy. |
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#307 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,345
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Would this have been a valid and legal operation to perform at Heathrow? LAX? Why or why not?
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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#308 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,938
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Indeed. We are where we are.
But right now, neither Iran nor America look to be trying to make anything better, are they? I mean, your post would probably make more sense if one side was putting forward some kind of plan like, I dunno, maybe an agreement on how to de-escalate Iran's search for nuclear power/weapons in return for some other concessions. But the post looks kind of strange when it is in response to one side killing a contractor, another side blowing up some militants, then the other side storming an embassy, and the other side blowing up a general and a convoy... |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#309 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,371
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Senator Udall, who was briefed after the action, said in an interview that the supposed imminent threat was not part of the briefing, and he's dubious about it.
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#310 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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Reading the Twitter Deplorables about it, you'd think anyone who has any doubt about this is unamerican.
I guess years of calling the media and democrat lying enemies of the people paid off. |
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#311 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,938
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I can't see how.
As the Iraqi PM complained, it is "an outrageous breach to Iraqi sovereignty". Surely it would have made sense for America to have complained to the Iraqi government about Iranian meddling at the American embassy and to have put economic and diplomatic pressure on Baghdad rather than to simply blow up Soleimani. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#312 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,530
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There is little evidence of this. What we do know is that Iran and its proxies were essential in the defeat of ISIS, pretty much fighting on the same side as the US. They were anti OBL. Yes they have supported the internationally recognised government of Syria. Whilst Assad was not delivering a liberal democracy, it certainly was more liberal than e.g. Saudi. The alternative a religious caliphate of a Saudi approved type would likely be worse, or a Sadam Hussein type military dictatorship such as the US supported.
Can you give an example of current terrorist activity? Fighting alongside US forces in Iraq against ISIS is not terrorism. Fighting alongside the recognised government of Syria is not terrorism. The evidence for active Iranian involvement in yemen is surprisingly little. (https://www.mei.edu/publications/ira...rospects-peace) Hezbollah in Lebanon is an officially recognised political party and provides a self defence militia (as supported in the US constitution) against foreign invaders. |
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#313 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#314 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,106
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#315 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
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#316 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Posts: 31,347
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#317 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,938
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#318 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
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#319 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,371
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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#320 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,938
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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