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#121 |
Skeptical about skeptics
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#122 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,116
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#123 |
Suspended
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#124 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 26,418
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The difference between the two images is that the white person was hanged because he was a horse thief. The second image the black person was hanged because he was black. This is an explicit racist attack. Now if he was hanged because he was a horse thief that might be a different matter. I will ignore the fact that lynching is wrong in itself. There is nothing in the first image that even says it was a lynching and not legitimate punishment. Or even that the victim is white.
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#125 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,116
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#126 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,135
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As is their right. The cost of poor a poor school culture. You would think every education HR department, school district and up would be all over this stuff and running regular courses on how not to show your racist contempt for black people. Obviously they haven’t and it is going to cost them. It’s the only way they will learn.
This sort of thing should not be happening. Punitive legal costs will help stamp it out. Lawyers making a lit of money is a trifling side issue. “They are just doing it for the money” strikes me as a distraction from our racist societies. |
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#127 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,135
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If anyone is struggling with understanding the problem with this, drop in to your HR dept Monday for a rundown and maybe get yourself on a course.
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#128 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,879
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__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#129 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,135
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Freedom for white teachers to **** on the dignity of black students. Lets drop that in the same dumpster with the freedom to call fire in a cinema and nothing of value will be lost. Love the PC framing of this situation - its clear that so often kick backs against PC is frustration with not being allowed to dehumanise minorities. Wake up to yourself.
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#130 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 46,876
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#131 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,879
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#132 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,424
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You're wrong. Those kids will remember for the rest of their lives that a teacher called them monkeys.
I still remember a time in the 9th grade (1985), when I corrected an adult at some event in our high school gym by informing her I was a boy and she responded that if I didn't want to be mistaken for a girl I should get a haircut and lose weight. Every time that memory bubbles to the surface (and it has, often), I feel the shame she wanted me to feel followed by anger that she went out of her way to **** on a 13-year-old kid. Maybe if I'd been able to "cash in" or at least see her suffer consequences for shaming a kid for his appearance, I wouldn't feel the same way all these years later. |
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#133 |
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,688
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I personally think making it as much as possible without harming the education of other kids sends a very good message to those that control the thing.
If it takes this and/or more bad luck. Sort your **** out and get rid of racism or get hammered Edit: can't actually believe anyone would argue against this |
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#134 |
Featherless biped
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#135 |
Suspended
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#136 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,147
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I think it would be if it were actually true. The problem here is that I don't actually believe it's true. The teacher(s) didn't not know that the kids were black, nor did they not know that calling them monkeys would be offensive. It's possible that they wanted to make the joke independent of it's racist overtones and not because of them, but they can't claim not to have been aware of those overtones, nor how it would have been taken by the students, and their peers.
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#137 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,879
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__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#138 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,504
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I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
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#139 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 16,504
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I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) ![]() |
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#140 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
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#141 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,110
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I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference.
There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing. If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing. Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other. You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#142 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,729
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It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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#143 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,135
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There a lot of things like these that “people have been doing for years” that are racist. The symbols and concepts under which African Americans where brought to the US in crammed ships to be used as slaves for a white society live on and need to be eradicated. We cannot allow the perpetuation of such attitudes to continue and people’s dignity devalued regardless of intent.
And how could anyone not be aware of these symbols and their use against black people? How often do we keep having such discussions? Again, if they are for whatever reason unaware this will serve as an expensive learning experience and a call for the HR department to educate. |
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#144 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 46,876
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This post is stunningly unbelievable. I can’t believe you are serious.
No, a teacher (or anyone else in a position of authority) can’t use the word “monkey” in relation to black kids. Nor the n word, nor jiggaboo, nor jungle bunny, nor ..... you get the drift. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise? Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom. The troglodyte teacher in question deserves what is coming to him and I hope he never enters a classroom again. |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#145 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 46,876
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__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#146 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,729
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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#147 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,135
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Class is important here. Two classes based on the colour of a person’s skin and a symbolism of the savage animal contrasted with a genteel civilised white. Being white in this framework removes this class hierarchy aspect. Still a teacher doesn’t want to go around calling any kid a monkey. Are you calling them stupid? Good at climbing trees? There is no need to say such things.
But its all such a minefield and I don’t know what to say anymore? What makes it easy is empathy and a willingness to listen to others describe how they feel about things. |
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#148 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,729
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Where did this zoology teacher get his degree? For years he has been saying that white kids are monkeys and now he says that black kids are monkeys too. He needs to be replaced by a zoology teacher who learned that no children are monkeys.
This school got complacent because they hadn't already been sued for millions by four white kids. Kids who are not monkeys! |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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#149 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,110
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Yeah, we get all that. Its the finer points that are a little murky, like using the innocent phrase 'monkey see, monkey do'. That is not specific to black people, the way a slur or wearing chains would be.
What some of us are asking is 'is this going too far, even though well intentioned?' Are we requiring white people never use the expression 'monkey do' at all, or just use it with white kids? Do you see what I mean? |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#150 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,379
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Quote:
Meanwhile here's a guy claiming that seeing a photo of yourself is similarily traumatizing that three decades from now they will still exhibit symptoms of emotional trauma. The "snowflake" term gets thrown around a lot, and I typically do not like it, but in this case, the shoe fits so well I will bring it out. Even if the presentation was somehow incredibly racist, that's not traumatizing. Tell that to someone who has survived sexual or physical assault, war, or a terrorist attack. Oh well. Whatever it takes to get rich, I suppose. |
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"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig |
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#151 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,110
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Because 'monkey see, monkey do' is not specifically a racial slur, as the others are. Its a standalone expression devoid of racism. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise?
Quote:
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#152 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,640
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If the school's account is correct, this is less a problem of casual racism as a norm, and more a problem of forgetting how innocent things can look to outsiders.
Maybe the moral of the story is, don't use your students as props for jokes. Or if you do, only work with students who know what you intend and are volunteering to be in on the joke. These students claim they didn't know what was going on, and that they were cajoled and tricked into it. That's not necessarily $12m worth of racism, but it's probably worth some amount of "don't use your students as props without their informed consent." I suppose it's possible the students and their families knew about the tradition, knew that their participation wouldn't make it racist, and knew they could exploit it for a payday. |
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#153 |
Skeptical about skeptics
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#154 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,729
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That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining.
But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it. It won't work. |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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#155 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#156 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,729
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If there is any sarcasm or hyperbole it was unintended. I'm serious when I say you can't use willing black kid volunteers. That is because other students will see the slideshow and declare that it is racist. You cannot call a black kid a monkey even if that kid has no problem with that.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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#157 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,204
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Clearly that does not go far enough.
It is obvious from this discussion that all science texts and lesson plans must be amended to specifically point out that white humans and white humans only are included in the zoological classification of "Primates". Any attempt to label a black person as a primate is clearly racist- and must result in the harshest penalties possible. |
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#158 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
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#159 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,424
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I was beaten up repeatedly from about age 8 to age 14 by bullies. Not one of those attacks, or all of them together, affected me as profoundly as that adult shaming me for my appearance.
As for how it compares to the trauma of others, I'm pretty sure I didn't compare it to anything but the situation under discussion. I wouldn't even call that comparison 1:1. Anyway, I appreciate your kind words and your effort to educate me about how I should feel, both now and as the child I used to be. |
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#160 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,204
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The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure. |
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