Monkey See. Monkey Do. Oops $12 million. - Page 4

psionl0 · 10th January 2020, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Well the racism can’t be undone and the school has not apologised, so punishment will be financial. Seems fair to me.

You don't know if the school had been given any opportunity to deal with this. A reading of the OP suggests that the boys ran straight to their lawyer.

PhantomWolf · 10th January 2020, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

So treating white students like this is ok, but if done on black ones this is racist?

Here are two historical art world depicting a lynching, one of a white man and one of a black man. Do you think perhaps there might have been something racist about one and not the other?

Image 1

Image 2

Especially if the context was removed and the words "Hang 'Em High" were added...

cullennz · 10th January 2020, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

A reading of the OP suggests that the boys ran straight to their lawyer.

Which bit of it suggests this.

rjh01 · 10th January 2020, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Here are two historical art world depicting a lynching, one of a white man and one of a black man. Do you think perhaps there might have been something racist about one and not the other?

Image 1

Image 2

Especially if the context was removed and the words "Hang 'Em High" were added...

The difference between the two images is that the white person was hanged because he was a horse thief. The second image the black person was hanged because he was black. This is an explicit racist attack. Now if he was hanged because he was a horse thief that might be a different matter. I will ignore the fact that lynching is wrong in itself. There is nothing in the first image that even says it was a lynching and not legitimate punishment. Or even that the victim is white.

PhantomWolf · 10th January 2020, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

The difference between the two images is that the white person was hanged because he was a horse thief. The second image the black person was hanged because he was black. This is an explicit racist attack. Now if he was hanged because he was a horse thief that might be a different matter. I will ignore the fact that lynching is wrong in itself. There is nothing in the first image that even says it was a lynching and not legitimate punishment. Or even that the victim is white.

And in the same way a photo of white students referring to monkeys isn't racist because there is no history of white people being called monkeys in a racist manner, however when it comes to black people....

Sideroxylon · 11th January 2020, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You don't know if the school had been given any opportunity to deal with this. A reading of the OP suggests that the boys ran straight to their lawyer.

As is their right. The cost of poor a poor school culture. You would think every education HR department, school district and up would be all over this stuff and running regular courses on how not to show your racist contempt for black people. Obviously they haven’t and it is going to cost them. It’s the only way they will learn.

This sort of thing should not be happening. Punitive legal costs will help stamp it out. Lawyers making a lit of money is a trifling side issue. “They are just doing it for the money” strikes me as a distraction from our racist societies.

Sideroxylon · 11th January 2020, 12:20 AM

If anyone is struggling with understanding the problem with this, drop in to your HR dept Monday for a rundown and maybe get yourself on a course.

psionl0 · 11th January 2020, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

This sort of thing should not be happening. Punitive legal costs will help stamp it out. Lawyers making a lit of money is a trifling side issue. “They are just doing it for the money” strikes me as a distraction from our racist societies.

This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech?

This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world.

Sideroxylon · 11th January 2020, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech?

This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world.

Freedom for white teachers to **** on the dignity of black students. Lets drop that in the same dumpster with the freedom to call fire in a cinema and nothing of value will be lost. Love the PC framing of this situation - its clear that so often kick backs against PC is frustration with not being allowed to dehumanise minorities. Wake up to yourself.

lionking · 11th January 2020, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech?

This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world.

Just to clarify things, are you saying that teachers (or anyone else for that matter) comparing black kids to monkeys is an exercise in free speech?

psionl0 · 11th January 2020, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Freedom for white teachers to **** on the dignity of black students. Lets drop that in the same dumpster with the freedom to call fire in a cinema and nothing of value will be lost. Love the PC framing of this situation - its clear that so often kick backs against PC is frustration with not being allowed to dehumanise minorities. Wake up to yourself.

It's not that nothing should be done about an act of bad taste. It's the disproportionality of it all. This is just a trivial offense. Cashing in on it is not an appropriate response.

Babbylonian · 11th January 2020, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It's not that nothing should be done about an act of bad taste. It's the disproportionality of it all. This is just a trivial offense. Cashing in on it is not an appropriate response.

You're wrong. Those kids will remember for the rest of their lives that a teacher called them monkeys.

I still remember a time in the 9th grade (1985), when I corrected an adult at some event in our high school gym by informing her I was a boy and she responded that if I didn't want to be mistaken for a girl I should get a haircut and lose weight. Every time that memory bubbles to the surface (and it has, often), I feel the shame she wanted me to feel followed by anger that she went out of her way to **** on a 13-year-old kid. Maybe if I'd been able to "cash in" or at least see her suffer consequences for shaming a kid for his appearance, I wouldn't feel the same way all these years later.

cullennz · 11th January 2020, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It's not that nothing should be done about an act of bad taste. It's the disproportionality of it all. This is just a trivial offense. Cashing in on it is not an appropriate response.

I personally think making it as much as possible without harming the education of other kids sends a very good message to those that control the thing.

If it takes this and/or more bad luck.

Sort your **** out and get rid of racism or get hammered

Edit: can't actually believe anyone would argue against this

Sideroxylon · 11th January 2020, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It's not that nothing should be done about an act of bad taste. It's the disproportionality of it all. This is just a trivial offense. Cashing in on it is not an appropriate response.

White privilege is why you think dehumanising minorities is trivial.

cullennz · 11th January 2020, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

White privilege

Ffs

Roboramma · 11th January 2020, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Neither is "I can't be racist because 'I don't see race.'"

I think it would be if it were actually true. The problem here is that I don't actually believe it's true. The teacher(s) didn't not know that the kids were black, nor did they not know that calling them monkeys would be offensive. It's possible that they wanted to make the joke independent of it's racist overtones and not because of them, but they can't claim not to have been aware of those overtones, nor how it would have been taken by the students, and their peers.

psionl0 · 11th January 2020, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

You're wrong. Those kids will remember for the rest of their lives that a teacher called them monkeys.

I still remember a time in the 9th grade (1985), when I corrected an adult at some event in our high school gym by informing her I was a boy and she responded that if I didn't want to be mistaken for a girl I should get a haircut and lose weight. Every time that memory bubbles to the surface (and it has, often), I feel the shame she wanted me to feel followed by anger that she went out of her way to **** on a 13-year-old kid. Maybe if I'd been able to "cash in" or at least see her suffer consequences for shaming a kid for his appearance, I wouldn't feel the same way all these years later.

You have no idea of how cruel humans can be to others, nor of the extent of the harm that this cruelty can cause to the victims. An isolated insult doesn't even begin to compare.

smartcooky · 11th January 2020, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You have no idea of how cruel humans can be to others, nor of the extent of the harm that this cruelty can cause to the victims. An isolated insult doesn't even begin to compare.

Angels and minsters of grace defend us! He just told you how cruel his teacher was to him, and how it affected him, and still affects him to this day, AND YOU BELITTLED IT AND DISMISSED IT!

smartcooky · 11th January 2020, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Just to clarify things, are you saying that teachers (or anyone else for that matter) comparing black kids to monkeys is an exercise in free speech?

Yup, that is exactly what he is saying... even if he claims to not to have meant it that way.

Calling Black kids monkeys is not real racism, apparently

Sideroxylon · 11th January 2020, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Ffs

I take it that you feel the expression is just a ridiculous buzzword. What a deep well of irony that is.

Thermal · 11th January 2020, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Yup, that is exactly what he is saying... even if he claims to not to have meant it that way.

Calling Black kids monkeys is not real racism, apparently

I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference.

There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing.

If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing.

Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other.

You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach.

William Parcher · 11th January 2020, 06:56 AM

It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong.

Sideroxylon · 11th January 2020, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference.

There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing.

If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing.

Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other.

You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach.

There a lot of things like these that “people have been doing for years” that are racist. The symbols and concepts under which African Americans where brought to the US in crammed ships to be used as slaves for a white society live on and need to be eradicated. We cannot allow the perpetuation of such attitudes to continue and people’s dignity devalued regardless of intent.

And how could anyone not be aware of these symbols and their use against black people? How often do we keep having such discussions? Again, if they are for whatever reason unaware this will serve as an expensive learning experience and a call for the HR department to educate.

lionking · 11th January 2020, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference.

There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing.

If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing.

Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other.

You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach.

This post is stunningly unbelievable. I can’t believe you are serious.

No, a teacher (or anyone else in a position of authority) can’t use the word “monkey” in relation to black kids. Nor the n word, nor jiggaboo, nor jungle bunny, nor ..... you get the drift. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise?

Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom.

The troglodyte teacher in question deserves what is coming to him and I hope he never enters a classroom again.

lionking · 11th January 2020, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong.

I don’t know why I rise to bait like this, but here goes.

You know the difference between calling a white kid and a black kid a monkey. Cut out this ********.

William Parcher · 11th January 2020, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

I don’t know why I rise to bait like this, but here goes.

You know the difference between calling a white kid and a black kid a monkey. Cut out this ********.

It is as if you have forgotten that humans aren't monkeys.

Sideroxylon · 11th January 2020, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong.

Class is important here. Two classes based on the colour of a person’s skin and a symbolism of the savage animal contrasted with a genteel civilised white. Being white in this framework removes this class hierarchy aspect. Still a teacher doesn’t want to go around calling any kid a monkey. Are you calling them stupid? Good at climbing trees? There is no need to say such things.

But its all such a minefield and I don’t know what to say anymore? What makes it easy is empathy and a willingness to listen to others describe how they feel about things.

William Parcher · 11th January 2020, 07:31 AM

Where did this zoology teacher get his degree? For years he has been saying that white kids are monkeys and now he says that black kids are monkeys too. He needs to be replaced by a zoology teacher who learned that no children are monkeys.

This school got complacent because they hadn't already been sued for millions by four white kids. Kids who are not monkeys!

Thermal · 11th January 2020, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

There a lot of things like these that “people have been doing for years” that are racist. The symbols and concepts under which African Americans where brought to the US in crammed ships to be used as slaves for a white society live on and need to be eradicated. We cannot allow the perpetuation of such attitudes to continue and people’s dignity devalued regardless of intent.

And how could anyone not be aware of these symbols and their use against black people? How often do we keep having such discussions? Again, if they are for whatever reason unaware this will serve as an expensive learning experience and a call for the HR department to educate.

Yeah, we get all that. Its the finer points that are a little murky, like using the innocent phrase 'monkey see, monkey do'. That is not specific to black people, the way a slur or wearing chains would be.

What some of us are asking is 'is this going too far, even though well intentioned?' Are we requiring white people never use the expression 'monkey do' at all, or just use it with white kids? Do you see what I mean?

Safe-Keeper · 11th January 2020, 07:38 AM

Quote:

“It scars them forever,” said Beverly Dean, one of dozens of speakers who addressed the school board before a crowd of about 300 people at Longwood High School’s auditorium. “What are we going to do for that student when they are 30 years old and have a flashback?”

People like this just brings my piss to a boil. There are people out there experiencing actual traumatic things. I just watched the first two episodes of a Norwegian TV series dramatazing the July 22nd attacks here in Norway. That's an event that scarred people forever. That's traumatic. That's life-ruining. That's something people might never get over, and struggle with 30 years from now.

Meanwhile here's a guy claiming that seeing a photo of yourself is similarily traumatizing that three decades from now they will still exhibit symptoms of emotional trauma.

The "snowflake" term gets thrown around a lot, and I typically do not like it, but in this case, the shoe fits so well I will bring it out. Even if the presentation was somehow incredibly racist, that's not traumatizing. Tell that to someone who has survived sexual or physical assault, war, or a terrorist attack.

Oh well. Whatever it takes to get rich, I suppose.

Thermal · 11th January 2020, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

This post is stunningly unbelievable. I can’t believe you are serious.

No, a teacher (or anyone else in a position of authority) can’t use the word “monkey” in relation to black kids. Nor the n word, nor jiggaboo, nor jungle bunny, nor ..... you get the drift. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise?

Because 'monkey see, monkey do' is not specifically a racial slur, as the others are. Its a standalone expression devoid of racism. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise?

Quote:

Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom.

The troglodyte teacher in question deserves what is coming to him and I hope he never enters a classroom again.

My wife works on the child study team in an overwhelmingly minority district. Yes, I have been around teachers and other education professionals socially for decades. My take on them is they are pretty casual about race. They are far more concerned with doing what they can on a very limited budget than with getting their panties in a bunch over something like the OP article. Such luxuries are more for people who have enough food on the table.

theprestige · 11th January 2020, 07:56 AM

If the school's account is correct, this is less a problem of casual racism as a norm, and more a problem of forgetting how innocent things can look to outsiders.

Maybe the moral of the story is, don't use your students as props for jokes. Or if you do, only work with students who know what you intend and are volunteering to be in on the joke.

These students claim they didn't know what was going on, and that they were cajoled and tricked into it. That's not necessarily $12m worth of racism, but it's probably worth some amount of "don't use your students as props without their informed consent."

I suppose it's possible the students and their families knew about the tradition, knew that their participation wouldn't make it racist, and knew they could exploit it for a payday.

psionl0 · 11th January 2020, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom.

Are you sure about that? This is America. School teachers probably don't get any more cultural awareness training than US police officers do.

William Parcher · 11th January 2020, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Maybe the moral of the story is, don't use your students as props for jokes. Or if you do, only work with students who know what you intend and are volunteering to be in on the joke.

That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining.

But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it.

It won't work.

theprestige · 11th January 2020, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining.

But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it.

It won't work.

I can't tell how much of this is sarcasm, how much is hyperbole, and how much is sober analysis.

William Parcher · 11th January 2020, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I can't tell how much of this is sarcasm, how much is hyperbole, and how much is sober analysis.

If there is any sarcasm or hyperbole it was unintended. I'm serious when I say you can't use willing black kid volunteers. That is because other students will see the slideshow and declare that it is racist. You cannot call a black kid a monkey even if that kid has no problem with that.

Distracted1 · 11th January 2020, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining.

But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it.

It won't work.

Clearly that does not go far enough.
It is obvious from this discussion that all science texts and lesson plans must be amended to specifically point out that white humans and white humans only are included in the zoological classification of "Primates".
Any attempt to label a black person as a primate is clearly racist- and must result in the harshest penalties possible.

theprestige · 11th January 2020, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Clearly that does not go far enough.
It is obvious from this discussion that all science texts and lesson plans must be amended to specifically point out that white humans and white humans only are included in the zoological classification of "Primates".
Any attempt to label a black person as a primate is clearly racist- and must result in the harshest penalties possible.

I can tell how much of this is sarcasm, how much is hyperbole, and how much is sober analysis: 80%, 20%, 0%.

Babbylonian · 11th January 2020, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You have no idea of how cruel humans can be to others, nor of the extent of the harm that this cruelty can cause to the victims. An isolated insult doesn't even begin to compare.

I was beaten up repeatedly from about age 8 to age 14 by bullies. Not one of those attacks, or all of them together, affected me as profoundly as that adult shaming me for my appearance.

As for how it compares to the trauma of others, I'm pretty sure I didn't compare it to anything but the situation under discussion. I wouldn't even call that comparison 1:1.

Anyway, I appreciate your kind words and your effort to educate me about how I should feel, both now and as the child I used to be.

Distracted1 · 11th January 2020, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I can tell how much of this is sarcasm, how much is hyperbole, and how much is sober analysis: 80%, 20%, 0%.

Funny, your statement pretty much encompasses my first thoughts upon waking every morning.

10th January 2020, 10:37 PM	#121
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,380	Originally Posted by lionking Well the racism can’t be undone and the school has not apologised, so punishment will be financial. Seems fair to me. You don't know if the school had been given any opportunity to deal with this. A reading of the OP suggests that the boys ran straight to their lawyer.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

10th January 2020, 10:44 PM	#122
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 19,183	Originally Posted by rjh01 So treating white students like this is ok, but if done on black ones this is racist? Here are two historical art world depicting a lynching, one of a white man and one of a black man. Do you think perhaps there might have been something racist about one and not the other? Image 1 Image 2 Especially if the context was removed and the words "Hang 'Em High" were added...
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) Last edited by PhantomWolf; 10th January 2020 at 10:48 PM.

10th January 2020, 10:45 PM	#123
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 17,947	Originally Posted by psionl0 A reading of the OP suggests that the boys ran straight to their lawyer. Which bit of it suggests this.
	__________________ I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

10th January 2020, 11:00 PM	#124
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 25,175	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Here are two historical art world depicting a lynching, one of a white man and one of a black man. Do you think perhaps there might have been something racist about one and not the other? Image 1 Image 2 Especially if the context was removed and the words "Hang 'Em High" were added... The difference between the two images is that the white person was hanged because he was a horse thief. The second image the black person was hanged because he was black. This is an explicit racist attack. Now if he was hanged because he was a horse thief that might be a different matter. I will ignore the fact that lynching is wrong in itself. There is nothing in the first image that even says it was a lynching and not legitimate punishment. Or even that the victim is white.
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

10th January 2020, 11:04 PM	#125
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 19,183	Originally Posted by rjh01 The difference between the two images is that the white person was hanged because he was a horse thief. The second image the black person was hanged because he was black. This is an explicit racist attack. Now if he was hanged because he was a horse thief that might be a different matter. I will ignore the fact that lynching is wrong in itself. There is nothing in the first image that even says it was a lynching and not legitimate punishment. Or even that the victim is white. And in the same way a photo of white students referring to monkeys isn't racist because there is no history of white people being called monkeys in a racist manner, however when it comes to black people....
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

11th January 2020, 12:19 AM	#126
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,967	Originally Posted by psionl0 You don't know if the school had been given any opportunity to deal with this. A reading of the OP suggests that the boys ran straight to their lawyer. As is their right. The cost of poor a poor school culture. You would think every education HR department, school district and up would be all over this stuff and running regular courses on how not to show your racist contempt for black people. Obviously they haven’t and it is going to cost them. It’s the only way they will learn. This sort of thing should not be happening. Punitive legal costs will help stamp it out. Lawyers making a lit of money is a trifling side issue. “They are just doing it for the money” strikes me as a distraction from our racist societies.

11th January 2020, 12:20 AM	#127
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,967	If anyone is struggling with understanding the problem with this, drop in to your HR dept Monday for a rundown and maybe get yourself on a course.

11th January 2020, 01:09 AM	#128
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,380	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon This sort of thing should not be happening. Punitive legal costs will help stamp it out. Lawyers making a lit of money is a trifling side issue. “They are just doing it for the money” strikes me as a distraction from our racist societies. This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech? This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

11th January 2020, 01:27 AM	#129
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,967	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech? This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world. Freedom for white teachers to **** on the dignity of black students. Lets drop that in the same dumpster with the freedom to call fire in a cinema and nothing of value will be lost. Love the PC framing of this situation - its clear that so often kick backs against PC is frustration with not being allowed to dehumanise minorities. Wake up to yourself.

11th January 2020, 01:30 AM	#130
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,872	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech? This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world. Just to clarify things, are you saying that teachers (or anyone else for that matter) comparing black kids to monkeys is an exercise in free speech?
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

11th January 2020, 02:07 AM	#131
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,380	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Freedom for white teachers to **** on the dignity of black students. Lets drop that in the same dumpster with the freedom to call fire in a cinema and nothing of value will be lost. Love the PC framing of this situation - its clear that so often kick backs against PC is frustration with not being allowed to dehumanise minorities. Wake up to yourself. It's not that nothing should be done about an act of bad taste. It's the disproportionality of it all. This is just a trivial offense. Cashing in on it is not an appropriate response.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

11th January 2020, 02:33 AM	#132
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 12,117	Originally Posted by psionl0 It's not that nothing should be done about an act of bad taste. It's the disproportionality of it all. This is just a trivial offense. Cashing in on it is not an appropriate response. You're wrong. Those kids will remember for the rest of their lives that a teacher called them monkeys. I still remember a time in the 9th grade (1985), when I corrected an adult at some event in our high school gym by informing her I was a boy and she responded that if I didn't want to be mistaken for a girl I should get a haircut and lose weight. Every time that memory bubbles to the surface (and it has, often), I feel the shame she wanted me to feel followed by anger that she went out of her way to **** on a 13-year-old kid. Maybe if I'd been able to "cash in" or at least see her suffer consequences for shaming a kid for his appearance, I wouldn't feel the same way all these years later.

11th January 2020, 02:35 AM	#133
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 17,947	Originally Posted by psionl0 It's not that nothing should be done about an act of bad taste. It's the disproportionality of it all. This is just a trivial offense. Cashing in on it is not an appropriate response. I personally think making it as much as possible without harming the education of other kids sends a very good message to those that control the thing. If it takes this and/or more bad luck. Sort your **** out and get rid of racism or get hammered Edit: can't actually believe anyone would argue against this
	__________________ I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 Last edited by cullennz; 11th January 2020 at 02:38 AM.

11th January 2020, 02:38 AM	#134
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,967	Originally Posted by psionl0 It's not that nothing should be done about an act of bad taste. It's the disproportionality of it all. This is just a trivial offense. Cashing in on it is not an appropriate response. White privilege is why you think dehumanising minorities is trivial.

11th January 2020, 02:47 AM	#135
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 17,947	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon White privilege Ffs
	__________________ I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

11th January 2020, 02:58 AM	#136
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 13,278	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Neither is "I can't be racist because 'I don't see race.'" I think it would be if it were actually true. The problem here is that I don't actually believe it's true. The teacher(s) didn't not know that the kids were black, nor did they not know that calling them monkeys would be offensive. It's possible that they wanted to make the joke independent of it's racist overtones and not because of them, but they can't claim not to have been aware of those overtones, nor how it would have been taken by the students, and their peers.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

11th January 2020, 03:20 AM	#137
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,380	Originally Posted by Babbylonian You're wrong. Those kids will remember for the rest of their lives that a teacher called them monkeys. I still remember a time in the 9th grade (1985), when I corrected an adult at some event in our high school gym by informing her I was a boy and she responded that if I didn't want to be mistaken for a girl I should get a haircut and lose weight. Every time that memory bubbles to the surface (and it has, often), I feel the shame she wanted me to feel followed by anger that she went out of her way to **** on a 13-year-old kid. Maybe if I'd been able to "cash in" or at least see her suffer consequences for shaming a kid for his appearance, I wouldn't feel the same way all these years later. You have no idea of how cruel humans can be to others, nor of the extent of the harm that this cruelty can cause to the victims. An isolated insult doesn't even begin to compare.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

11th January 2020, 03:29 AM	#138
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 13,133	Originally Posted by psionl0 You have no idea of how cruel humans can be to others, nor of the extent of the harm that this cruelty can cause to the victims. An isolated insult doesn't even begin to compare. Angels and minsters of grace defend us! He just told you how cruel his teacher was to him, and how it affected him, and still affects him to this day, AND YOU BELITTLED IT AND DISMISSED IT!
	__________________ "You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

11th January 2020, 03:33 AM	#139
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 13,133	Originally Posted by lionking Just to clarify things, are you saying that teachers (or anyone else for that matter) comparing black kids to monkeys is an exercise in free speech? Yup, that is exactly what he is saying... even if he claims to not to have meant it that way. Calling Black kids monkeys is not real racism, apparently
	__________________ "You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! Last edited by smartcooky; 11th January 2020 at 03:59 AM.

11th January 2020, 06:27 AM	#140
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,967	Originally Posted by cullennz Ffs I take it that you feel the expression is just a ridiculous buzzword. What a deep well of irony that is.

11th January 2020, 06:37 AM	#141
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,268	Originally Posted by smartcooky Yup, that is exactly what he is saying... even if he claims to not to have meant it that way. Calling Black kids monkeys is not real racism, apparently I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference. There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing. If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing. Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other. You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi

11th January 2020, 06:56 AM	#142
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,901	It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

11th January 2020, 06:57 AM	#143
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,967	Originally Posted by Thermal I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference. There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing. If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing. Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other. You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach. There a lot of things like these that “people have been doing for years” that are racist. The symbols and concepts under which African Americans where brought to the US in crammed ships to be used as slaves for a white society live on and need to be eradicated. We cannot allow the perpetuation of such attitudes to continue and people’s dignity devalued regardless of intent. And how could anyone not be aware of these symbols and their use against black people? How often do we keep having such discussions? Again, if they are for whatever reason unaware this will serve as an expensive learning experience and a call for the HR department to educate.

11th January 2020, 07:00 AM	#144
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,872	Originally Posted by Thermal I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference. There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing. If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing. Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other. You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach. This post is stunningly unbelievable. I can’t believe you are serious. No, a teacher (or anyone else in a position of authority) can’t use the word “monkey” in relation to black kids. Nor the n word, nor jiggaboo, nor jungle bunny, nor ..... you get the drift. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise? Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom. The troglodyte teacher in question deserves what is coming to him and I hope he never enters a classroom again.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

11th January 2020, 07:03 AM	#145
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,872	Originally Posted by William Parcher It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong. I don’t know why I rise to bait like this, but here goes. You know the difference between calling a white kid and a black kid a monkey. Cut out this ********.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

11th January 2020, 07:12 AM	#146
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,901	Originally Posted by lionking I don’t know why I rise to bait like this, but here goes. You know the difference between calling a white kid and a black kid a monkey. Cut out this ********. It is as if you have forgotten that humans aren't monkeys.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

11th January 2020, 07:14 AM	#147
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,967	Originally Posted by William Parcher It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong. Class is important here. Two classes based on the colour of a person’s skin and a symbolism of the savage animal contrasted with a genteel civilised white. Being white in this framework removes this class hierarchy aspect. Still a teacher doesn’t want to go around calling any kid a monkey. Are you calling them stupid? Good at climbing trees? There is no need to say such things. But its all such a minefield and I don’t know what to say anymore? What makes it easy is empathy and a willingness to listen to others describe how they feel about things.

11th January 2020, 07:31 AM	#148
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,901	Where did this zoology teacher get his degree? For years he has been saying that white kids are monkeys and now he says that black kids are monkeys too. He needs to be replaced by a zoology teacher who learned that no children are monkeys. This school got complacent because they hadn't already been sued for millions by four white kids. Kids who are not monkeys!
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

11th January 2020, 07:34 AM	#149
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,268	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon There a lot of things like these that “people have been doing for years” that are racist. The symbols and concepts under which African Americans where brought to the US in crammed ships to be used as slaves for a white society live on and need to be eradicated. We cannot allow the perpetuation of such attitudes to continue and people’s dignity devalued regardless of intent. And how could anyone not be aware of these symbols and their use against black people? How often do we keep having such discussions? Again, if they are for whatever reason unaware this will serve as an expensive learning experience and a call for the HR department to educate. Yeah, we get all that. Its the finer points that are a little murky, like using the innocent phrase 'monkey see, monkey do'. That is not specific to black people, the way a slur or wearing chains would be. What some of us are asking is 'is this going too far, even though well intentioned?' Are we requiring white people never use the expression 'monkey do' at all, or just use it with white kids? Do you see what I mean?
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi

11th January 2020, 07:38 AM	#150
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 8,689	Quote: “It scars them forever,” said Beverly Dean, one of dozens of speakers who addressed the school board before a crowd of about 300 people at Longwood High School’s auditorium. “What are we going to do for that student when they are 30 years old and have a flashback?” People like this just brings my piss to a boil. There are people out there experiencing actual traumatic things. I just watched the first two episodes of a Norwegian TV series dramatazing the July 22nd attacks here in Norway. That's an event that scarred people forever. That's traumatic. That's life-ruining. That's something people might never get over, and struggle with 30 years from now. Meanwhile here's a guy claiming that seeing a photo of yourself is similarily traumatizing that three decades from now they will still exhibit symptoms of emotional trauma. The "snowflake" term gets thrown around a lot, and I typically do not like it, but in this case, the shoe fits so well I will bring it out. Even if the presentation was somehow incredibly racist, that's not traumatizing. Tell that to someone who has survived sexual or physical assault, war, or a terrorist attack. Oh well. Whatever it takes to get rich, I suppose.
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 8,689	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place." --Stacyhs

11th January 2020, 07:45 AM	#151
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,268	Originally Posted by lionking This post is stunningly unbelievable. I can’t believe you are serious. No, a teacher (or anyone else in a position of authority) can’t use the word “monkey” in relation to black kids. Nor the n word, nor jiggaboo, nor jungle bunny, nor ..... you get the drift. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise? Because 'monkey see, monkey do' is not specifically a racial slur, as the others are. Its a standalone expression devoid of racism. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise? Quote: Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom. The troglodyte teacher in question deserves what is coming to him and I hope he never enters a classroom again. My wife works on the child study team in an overwhelmingly minority district. Yes, I have been around teachers and other education professionals socially for decades. My take on them is they are pretty casual about race. They are far more concerned with doing what they can on a very limited budget than with getting their panties in a bunch over something like the OP article. Such luxuries are more for people who have enough food on the table.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi Last edited by Thermal; 11th January 2020 at 07:47 AM.

11th January 2020, 07:56 AM	#152
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41,052	If the school's account is correct, this is less a problem of casual racism as a norm, and more a problem of forgetting how innocent things can look to outsiders. Maybe the moral of the story is, don't use your students as props for jokes. Or if you do, only work with students who know what you intend and are volunteering to be in on the joke. These students claim they didn't know what was going on, and that they were cajoled and tricked into it. That's not necessarily $12m worth of racism, but it's probably worth some amount of "don't use your students as props without their informed consent." I suppose it's possible the students and their families knew about the tradition, knew that their participation wouldn't make it racist, and knew they could exploit it for a payday.

11th January 2020, 08:02 AM	#153
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,380	Originally Posted by lionking Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom. Are you sure about that? This is America. School teachers probably don't get any more cultural awareness training than US police officers do.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

11th January 2020, 08:17 AM	#154
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,901	Originally Posted by theprestige Maybe the moral of the story is, don't use your students as props for jokes. Or if you do, only work with students who know what you intend and are volunteering to be in on the joke. That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining. But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it. It won't work.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

11th January 2020, 08:28 AM	#155
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41,052	Originally Posted by William Parcher That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining. But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it. It won't work. I can't tell how much of this is sarcasm, how much is hyperbole, and how much is sober analysis.