ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags lawsuits , New York incidents , racism charges , racism incidents , school incidents

Reply
Old 11th January 2020, 05:02 PM   #201
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,220
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is sheer lunacy! When did political correctness drown out freedom of speech?

This "we will not stop until everybody is afraid to open their mouth" madness is everything that is wrong with this world.
Freedom of Speech is NOT Freedom from consequences, and also ONLY applies to the Government taking CRIMINAL actions.

You can say what you like, and other people can sue the pants off you for it if you breach civil laws and rights such as defamation or equal protections.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 06:28 PM   #202
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,177
^This. And teachers especially do not have the right, within their responsibilities as teachers, to bully students of any “race,” or to be so unaware/uncaring of fundamental memes of racial bigotry as to employ them so blatantly.

Freedom of speech does not mean that one can be nasty, insensitive, and ignorant at your job while expecting continued employment.

Beyond this, frankly IMHO I don’t see the right to insult other people as being one of the most crucial freedoms of speech...
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 06:43 PM   #203
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Probably just me, as we didn't have it, but I actually find the whole taking photos of the kids on trips thing a bit weird.

Get from the thread it is a normal thing some places.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 07:00 PM   #204
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,977
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
taking photos of the kids on trips thing a bit weird.
High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 07:04 PM   #205
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,203
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life.
I burned mine! A fitting end to a dreadful period of time with truly awful people. Looking back from a mellow middle-age I can only hope, with all the sincerity and serenity of which I am capable, that all of those other people are dead now.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 07:30 PM   #206
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
High school yearbooks use photos of students and activities and such. A treasure for life.
Fair enough

We didn't have high school year books, but have seen them in movies/tv etc.

We just had kind of group class photos where everyone poses like a sports team
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 07:34 PM   #207
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,977
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
all of those other people are dead now.
That's an unfortunate attitude. Some kids with that same attitude take guns to school and blast away. It's horrible.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 07:42 PM   #208
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,203
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That's an unfortunate attitude. Some kids with that same attitude take guns to school and blast away. It's horrible.
If any kids develop time travel and go back in time to shoot up my high school in the mid 90s I'll accept moral responsibility.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 09:56 PM   #209
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,473
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Freedom of Speech is NOT Freedom from consequences, and also ONLY applies to the Government taking CRIMINAL actions.

You can say what you like, and other people can sue the pants off you for it if you breach civil laws and rights such as defamation or equal protections.
Then you don't have freedom of speech.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 09:59 PM   #210
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then you don't have freedom of speech.
Care to elaborate?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 10:19 PM   #211
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,473
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Care to elaborate?
This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally).

Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 11th January 2020 at 10:20 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 10:24 PM   #212
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,473
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Couldn't you have just said "suck it up, weaklings" and saved yourself some time?
I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past.

I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 10:41 PM   #213
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally).

Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars.
So you don't think the teacher

"knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it "

By comparing black kids to monkeys, who must have known the connotations.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 10:43 PM   #214
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Unless of course the teachers in the US are the thickest people around.

Good luck with the kids if this is the case
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2020, 11:59 PM   #215
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,994
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past.

I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel.
That is sad but it doesn’t have to be like that.
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 05:28 AM   #216
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,220
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress.
I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it?
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 09:57 AM   #217
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,177
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then you don't have freedom of speech.
We don't. Not by your definition. Never did.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:00 AM   #218
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,177
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This has been debated endlessly. If you knowingly and maliciously make a false statement then somebody who is harmed by it can sue for redress. Revealing classified information is also not covered under "free speech" (since you presumably gave that undertaking when you received that information or you obtained it illegally).

Merely stating an opinion should never be subject to such restrictions. Otherwise you would be handing the keys to the asylum to the lunatics. We would have the crazy situation where anybody who felt offended by your opinion could take you to court and sue you for millions of dollars.
Try telling your boss he/she is an idiot. Just an opinion... Or that your 6 year old students should tortured and killed. Just an opinion...

Sorry, opinions do have consequences. Particularly in terms of a work environment, but often beyond that as well.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:02 AM   #219
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,357
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it?
I think for your example to have merit it would need to be self-evident from the image that the pictured person was not a part of the class you choose for your label.

Perhaps a picture of your target labeled a "dog" or some such.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:04 AM   #220
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,177
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Unless of course the teachers in the US are the thickest people around.

Good luck with the kids if this is the case
Some are. Some are brilliant. My kids were in public school K - 12 and some significant part of my role as parent was to hope they got the latter as teachers, but if they got the former to find ways of compensating. Of course I tried to influence the choices of teachers in the few subtle ways available to me, but usually that was not possible.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:05 AM   #221
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,177
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I wouldn't go that far - although there are people who would. At least, that's what others have told me in the past.

I learned a long time ago that nobody cares how I feel.
Actually I do, and I usually enjoy reading your posts. I don't agree with all of them, but that doesn't mean I don't care or don't value them.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 12:07 PM   #222
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,473
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it?
What a malicious thing to make up!
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:11 PM   #223
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,220
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What a malicious thing to make up!
It's not malicious, it's a joke, just like calling a Black person a monkey, so what's the harm?
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:13 PM   #224
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,220
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I think for your example to have merit it would need to be self-evident from the image that the pictured person was not a part of the class you choose for your label.

Perhaps a picture of your target labeled a "dog" or some such.
Problem here is that the pictured people in the OP are part of the class that have been repeated racially slurred as Monkeys throughout history, so no, my example is apt.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:33 PM   #225
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,357
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Problem here is that the pictured people in the OP are part of the class that have been repeated racially slurred as Monkeys throughout history, so no, my example is apt.
No it is not.
Although the term has been used as an insult, it is not possible to conclude from an image that the maligned actually are monkeys. However, it is not possible to discern from an image that a person pictured is clearly not a pedophile.
Your labeling it thus has a potential to create harm that a clearly untrue accusation does not have.

Or do you assert that labeling the boys in question "pedophiles" would not be an act of greater consequence to them than putting "monkey do" above their picture (following the "monkey see" image) ?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

Last edited by Distracted1; 12th January 2020 at 01:36 PM.
Distracted1 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:40 PM   #226
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: God's own NJ USA
Posts: 9,374
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
When black people are described as monkeys or linked to monkeys I think immediately of the long history of the meme being used in a racist fashion. Decades, hundreds of years of its use in this fashion. It hasn't disappeared by any means (in fact I see it recently expanding once again as politicians have sought to play to racist groups for support). Do you think that the kids and their parents somehow were unaware of it as a racial insult and had to be told about the problem by someone over 60 years old?

Were you unaware of it and were shocked to learn of the racist connection by this thread?
Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit.

And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose?

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
In thread after thread, at least according to a few posters, no matter what occurs there is no evidence of it being racism. Apparently the black people involved in these incidents who do believe that racism has taken place are wrong; just over-sensitive and/or incited by others to leap to the wrong conclusion and "play the race card."

Thankfully we white people know better and that most racism has disappeared! Certainly we don't see it...

Having lived through the 1960s I am reminded by a very common response by those in opposition to the civil rights movement at that time, "Its all those outside agitators! We whites and them "racial slurs" got along just fine until those communists, Jews, and Northerns came down and started putting ideas into their heads."
Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)?

Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:58 PM   #227
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit.



And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose?







Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)?



Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof.
"Google the term"

Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 05:21 PM   #228
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,994
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fair question. When seeing the thread title, I assumed some kind of business tried to rip off another business model and got slammed with a $12mil suit.

And no one is claiming they are shocked. It is more that it is not a common racial thing. Look at Wikipedia's entry for the expression. No mention of racist usage or connotations. Wiki gone white power too, I suppose?



Well, speaking as one o' them thar Northerns, this tale is solidly in the 'leaping to the wrong conclusion' pile. I mean, come on...monkey see, monkey do? Google the term, and see how many kid programs and yoga studios and everything else under the sun shares this name. But just this one usage is racist (while parents and students of all colors flood the hearing in support of them)?

Here again, it does not reflect on whether racism exists, despite your straw assertion. The argument is that this is a lousy example if someone wishes to show racism on the hoof.
This bit is amazingly obtuse. An exercise in missing the point, which I will not labour any further.
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 05:26 PM   #229
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,177
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"Google the term"

Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it
That was going to be my suggestion too.
The problem was not that the general term “monkey see monkey do,” was a racist meme, but using it to label a picture of black children was...

I think this has been explained before in this thread...
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 06:40 PM   #230
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,553
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
That was going to be my suggestion too.
The problem was not that the general term “monkey see monkey do,” was a racist meme, but using it to label a picture of black children was...

I think this has been explained before in this thread...
You know, this topic pops up every couple of months, and every time, it always has to be explained that comparing black people to monkeys is a common racist trope!
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 06:52 PM   #231
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Tbf without naming names there is a fair bit of purposefully obtuseness (may have made up a word) that goes on here.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 07:42 PM   #232
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: God's own NJ USA
Posts: 9,374
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"Google the term"

Try googling black people monkey and learn some facts about it
Yeah, we know. We all know. But it's not what we are talking about.

Any reference to monkeys does not automatically mean racism. I've heard there are these cats called 'skeptics' who value this jazz called 'context'. The context here is a science teacher who has used this goofy monkey do thing for like a decade with kids of different races. At the hearing, the place overflowed with support for him, from people of all colors. That says to me that this example is not racist. It was innocent, if stupid, as some of these turn out to be.

But what do we do with a day care called 'Monkey Do'? Should we recommend to the owners not to accept black students, lest they be pictured under the school's signage, and the owner accused of being a hateful racist?

Should the owner of Monkey Do Yoga refuse to sell a t-shirt to a black member? Think about it; the reasoning is going off the rails.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 07:57 PM   #233
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,177
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Tbf without naming names there is a fair bit of purposefully obtuseness (may have made up a word) that goes on here.
Yes indeed.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 07:59 PM   #234
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,205
Yes the "Oh please remind me again that this is bad, as if we've never had this discussion before" thing we have to do every time this topic comes up.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 12th January 2020 at 08:00 PM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 08:07 PM   #235
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,205
I'd ask what exactly about calling black people monkeys is so important to people that it has to be defended, but I already know I'd just get a bunch of unrelated rants about PC snowflakes and everyone being offended all the time which aren't answers to that question.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 08:14 PM   #236
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, we know. We all know. But it's not what we are talking about.



Any reference to monkeys does not automatically mean racism. I've heard there are these cats called 'skeptics' who value this jazz called 'context'. The context here is a science teacher who has used this goofy monkey do thing for like a decade with kids of different races. At the hearing, the place overflowed with support for him, from people of all colors. That says to me that this example is not racist. It was innocent, if stupid, as some of these turn out to be.



But what do we do with a day care called 'Monkey Do'? Should we recommend to the owners not to accept black students, lest they be pictured under the school's signage, and the owner accused of being a hateful racist?



Should the owner of Monkey Do Yoga refuse to sell a t-shirt to a black member? Think about it; the reasoning is going off the rails.
We are talking about this case, not some business people can chose to go to or not.

Alright then. Let's say it was a completely innocent mistake.

Do you want people that thick teaching your kids?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 08:35 PM   #237
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: God's own NJ USA
Posts: 9,374
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
We are talking about this case, not some business people can chose to go to or not.

Alright then. Let's say it was a completely innocent mistake.

Do you want people that thick teaching your kids?
Based on the reported outpouring of support, yeah, I think he sounds like a teacher that touched a lot of lives.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 08:42 PM   #238
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,074
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Based on the reported outpouring of support, yeah, I think he sounds like a teacher that touched a lot of lives.
Fair enough.

Disagree but fair enough.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:30 PM   #239
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,473
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It's not malicious, it's a joke, just like calling a Black person a monkey, so what's the harm?
I say it's a malicious attempt to defame me with false information and cause me harm.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 11:04 PM   #240
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,220
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I say it's a malicious attempt to defame me with false information and cause me harm.
Quashing freedom of speech then, or do you also accept that Blacks put in a photo that refers to them as Monkeys might also consider that "a malicious attempt to defame with false information and cause harm."
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:20 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.