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Tags lawsuits , New York incidents , racism charges , racism incidents , school incidents

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Old 13th January 2020, 03:00 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No the point is that you have no idea. You just assume that you're right.

You also assume that white = privileged.
Lumpenproletariat white supremacists struggling for existence in a trailer park get to feel superior by virtue of the colour of their skins.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:30 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Lumpenproletariat white supremacists struggling for existence in a trailer park get to feel superior by virtue of the colour of their skins.
I'm sure they do, but this doesn't answer my question.

In fact, your continued insistence that it must be the case that all who disagree with you are white and all are privileged seems to belie your denial from two days ago about it stemming from white guilt.

How about we leave all of this out and just focus on the fact that what the teacher did was just wrong? It doesn't need to be racist or genocidal or colonialistic in order to be unacceptable.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:31 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If you are going to hand wave or trivialise issues like being likened to an ape with all it’s racist history, I will call it white privilege.
If there is ever going to be racial peace in the US, the racist history of these kinds of things need to be left behind. If it would be OK to liken a white child to an ape, someday it is going to have to be OK to liken a black child to one.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:39 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's a public school teacher. We don't have to do the whole "Check your privilege" routine on them to go "You did something wrong."

We are not limited to "The bog-standard Progressive response to racial incidents" and "Pretend nothing wrong happened."
We can use terminology that triggers reactionaries who think themselves oh so clever for working out that gods are not real and mediums are bunk but unwilling/incapable of applying a sceptical approach to their social worldviews.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:44 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If there is ever going to be racial peace in the US, the racist history of these kinds of things need to be left behind. If it would be OK to liken a white child to an ape, someday it is going to have to be OK to liken a black child to one.
They must be dealt with and not just swept under the rug.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:46 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sure they do, but this doesn't answer my question.

In fact, your continued insistence that it must be the case that all who disagree with you are white and all are privileged seems to belie your denial from two days ago about it stemming from white guilt.

How about we leave all of this out and just focus on the fact that what the teacher did was just wrong? It doesn't need to be racist or genocidal or colonialistic in order to be unacceptable.
Yeah, recognising the context of the conversation might help you avoid beating up on strawmen.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:54 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
They must be dealt with and not just swept under the rug.
These things are never dealt with. Even if you have some definition of "dealt with" that is objective enough for us to agree on, other people will have a different definition.
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:00 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yeah, recognising the context of the conversation might help you avoid beating up on strawmen.
How about you stop reacting wildly to my posts and actually discuss the matter?
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:01 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
These things are never dealt with. Even if you have some definition of "dealt with" that is objective enough for us to agree on, other people will have a different definition.
A sad truth but much of life is sisyphean. Things look pretty grim when we are led by tiny minded populist politicians instead of visionaries.

Is there not a compounding of injustice to sweep these issues aside instead of confronting them?
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:02 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How about you stop reacting wildly to my posts and actually discuss the matter?
You’re not even my real mom.
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Old 13th January 2020, 05:31 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
You’re not even my real mom.
That hurts, Sid.

No, but seriously: I agree with you on the general argument of this thread. I just don't know why you reflexively call those who disagree on the topic, who may or may not have a rational argument, privileged, or even white. Hell, some might come from countries where this dynamic is entirely different.
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Old 13th January 2020, 06:39 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That hurts, Sid.

No, but seriously: I agree with you on the general argument of this thread. I just don't know why you reflexively call those who disagree on the topic, who may or may not have a rational argument, privileged, or even white. Hell, some might come from countries where this dynamic is entirely different.
Again, I will call such examples of insensitivity, handwaving of the problems of racism as white privilege. I have provided explanations but you curiously frame my actions as simply because I disagree with these posters. It’s an interesting lack of nuance.


If you have not already start having a read what the term means:
White privilege is a social phenomenon.[15] Although the definition of "white privilege" has been somewhat fluid, it is generally agreed to refer to the implicit or systemic advantages that white people have relative to people who are the objects of racism; it is the absence of suspicion and other negative reactions that people who are objects of racism experience.[16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

The way I see it, and suggested in the Wikipedia article, is such terms have been pilloried in the American culture wars by the usual rightwing anti intellectuals who dismiss almost any academic social analysis.

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 13th January 2020 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:07 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Again, I will call such examples of insensitivity, handwaving of the problems of racism as white privilege. I have provided explanations but you curiously frame my actions as simply because I disagree with these posters.
The only explanation you've provided that I can remember is that the people you label deserve the label. Hopefully you understand why that's not convincing. If you have another explanation that I've missed, feel free to link to it or to provide a post number for me to read.

Quote:
It’s an interesting lack of nuance.
Yes, that was my accusation ; that your labeling lacks nuance. Strange that you call me saying that as lacking nuance. Strange in that it doesn't make any logical sense.

Quote:
If you have not already start having a read what the term means:
I know exactly what the term means, thank you. It still doesn't justify the reflexive labeling. I've seen examples of the real thing, which is why I'm questioning your method.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:44 PM   #294
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I hate seeing this thread title popping up all the time because then I get an earworm from that Seal song "Wishing Well".
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Old 13th January 2020, 10:46 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The only explanation you've provided that I can remember is that the people you label deserve the label. Hopefully you understand why that's not convincing. If you have another explanation that I've missed, feel free to link to it or to provide a post number for me to read.



Yes, that was my accusation ; that your labeling lacks nuance. Strange that you call me saying that as lacking nuance. Strange in that it doesn't make any logical sense.



I know exactly what the term means, thank you. It still doesn't justify the reflexive labeling. I've seen examples of the real thing, which is why I'm questioning your method.
You don’t understand the terms or the simple explanation given, but you sure think you do, which makes for an impossibility to engage.
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Old 14th January 2020, 05:53 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No the point is that you have no idea. You just assume that you're right.

You also assume that white = privileged.
In the US that is accurate. They have never faced daily racism expressed at them in thousands of ways, and that is a privilege that they had. They get called back for job interviews far more often and the like.
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Old 14th January 2020, 08:47 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
You don’t understand the terms or the simple explanation given, but you sure think you do, which makes for an impossibility to engage.
I've already requested a link to the explanation or a post number. It's hard to understand something not provided.
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Old 16th January 2020, 06:10 PM   #298
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Would anyone be interested in a Federal or State law that would make it illegal to combine an image of a black person with the word "monkey"?
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Old 17th January 2020, 12:12 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Would anyone be interested in a Federal or State law that would make it illegal to combine an image of a black person with the word "monkey"?
I wouldn't, but I'd sure be interested in living in a society in which no member of it would even consider that combining an image of a black person with the word "monkey" was defensible!
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Old 17th January 2020, 12:26 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I wouldn't, but I'd sure be interested in living in a society in which no member of it would even consider that combining an image of a black person with the word "monkey" was defensible!
Bingo.
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Old 17th January 2020, 12:59 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
In the US that is accurate. They have never faced daily racism expressed at them in thousands of ways, and that is a privilege that they had. They get called back for job interviews far more often and the like.
Thats racist. I'm white and I can face daily racisim if I want to. Bluuurgh
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Old 17th January 2020, 01:20 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are you the subject of a century long campaign of organized dehumanization based on comparing your race to lower forms of life? No? Then shut up.
This is very country specific, you know.
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Old 17th January 2020, 03:39 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Would anyone be interested in a Federal or State law that would make it illegal to combine an image of a black person with the word "monkey"?
Why? Don't we spend enough money on law enforcement as it is? Maybe we should divert resources away from murder investigations.
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:07 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This is very country specific, you know.
If you read the accounts of black USA service men coming to the UK during WW2 they were greeted with open arms. Indeed the American officers tried to get the British to segregate and treat the black servicemen badly.

That of course is not to deny racism in the UK, it has at times been terrible but we never had legal segregation and so on. However we do seem to have "unconsciously" as a society adopted a lot of USA attitudes and even grievances.
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:09 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you read the accounts of black USA service men coming to the UK during WW2 they were greeted with open arms. Indeed the American officers tried to get the British to segregate and treat the black servicemen badly.
My understanding is that there was actual fisticuffs.


Quote:
That of course is not to deny racism in the UK, it has at times been terrible but we never had legal segregation and so on. However we do seem to have "unconsciously" as a society adopted a lot of USA attitudes and even grievances.

Yes. Which pisses me off no end, to be honest.

We have enough cultural baggage (No blacks, No Irish, anyone?) without adopting all of their self imposed Jim Crow created ******** too.
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:13 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why? Don't we spend enough money on law enforcement as it is? Maybe we should divert resources away from murder investigations.
What percentage of law enforcement costs should be allocated to murder investigations?
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Old 17th January 2020, 07:32 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
However we do seem to have "unconsciously" as a society adopted a lot of USA attitudes and even grievances.
And that diminishes us as a nation.
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Old 17th January 2020, 03:56 PM   #308
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Supporters say newly surfaced photos clear Longwood teacher at center of scandal; lawyer disagrees

Originally Posted by News 12 Long Island
New photos have surfaced that are similar to the one at the center of a divisive controversy in the Longwood school community...

News 12 obtained more photos like the one at the center of the notice of claim that show students of different ethnicities. Some in the district say the new pictures prove that zoology teacher Edward Heinrichs was not mocking the African American students.

One of the newly surfaced pictures was provided to News 12 by a student who says it was taken in 2017. The student, who asked not to be identified, said students didn't think the photo was racist then.

“I feel like kids were just laughing, no one sounded offended when the picture came up,” she said. But she says she understands why some would say the picture with just African American students is racially insensitive.

However, John Ray, an attorney for the four African American students, says the newly unveiled photos do not clear the teacher whatsoever. "These new photos are yet further evidence of the disgraceful, racially-provocative intentions of the white teachers and school district," Ray said in a statement. “African Americans should never be labeled as monkeys, even amongst whites. These white teachers intentionally created a show to mimic old, racially offensive depictions of evolution from monkey to white man."...
http://longisland.news12.com/story/4...wyer-disagrees


Longwood 'Monkey Do' Photo: New Pics Elicit Strong Reactions

Originally Posted by Patch
New photos have emerged in the "monkey do" case surrounding the Longwood Central School District. The photos, taken during previous years' zoo field trips and obtained by News 12 Long Island, show both students of color and white students posing in the same position as one that initially sparked backlash, which depicted four black children with the "monkey do" caption.

John Ray, the lawyer representing the black students in a potential $12 million lawsuit against the district and its workers, said the photos depicting multi-ethnicity students serve as further evidence of racism, while a former student said she never saw the teacher, Edward Heinrichs, behave in a racist manner.

"These new photos are yet further evidence of the disgraceful, racially-provocative intentions of the white teachers and school district," Ray said in a news release. "African-Americans should never be labeled as monkeys, even amongst whites. These white teachers intentionally created a show to mimic old, racially-offensive depictions of evolution from monkey to white man. These teachers knew this. They tested the waters with the first few photos containing minorities. When they got away with it, they eliminated the whites and went for the racist gold in this year's slides."...
https://patch.com/new-york/portjeffe...rong-reactions
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:04 PM   #309
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Snipped from an op-ed piece by a local editor...

Originally Posted by Newsday
...The community won’t benefit if a dedicated but imperfect teacher is fired. The four children won’t benefit if they’re convinced they’ve been so victimized by this slur that they can’t expect to make a living. Taxpayers all over the state won’t benefit if the New York Schools Insurance Reciprocal group Longwood (and most Island districts) belongs to has to pay out millions. And the district’s students won’t benefit if the administration has to go into full defensive mode rather than be allowed to face what happened and address it.

There is an opportunity here for a teachable moment and a set of lessons about racism that could bind a cohesive and diverse community even closer together. But for that to happen, everyone involved has to refuse to take steps that could rip that community apart.
https://www.newsday.com/opinion/colu...nts-1.40617341
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:14 PM   #310
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What a ******* load. Neither the tradition of the stupid joke nor others' lack of offense exonerates the teacher.

As for the teacher being fired, that would seem to be up to the school district, not the people bringing the suit. The court can't hand down a verdict that includes termination of the teacher's employment and I strongly doubt that such a request is included in the lawsuit. Some additional sensitivity training should take care of that part of the problem.

Is this worth a payment of millions of dollars? No, probably not. It's worth the payment of something, though. People need to stop doing this **** and public schools have a particular responsibility to provide an environment where racism, sexism, etc. are actively, constantly discouraged.
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:51 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
What a ******* load. Neither the tradition of the stupid joke nor others' lack of offense exonerates the teacher.
Exactly. The teacher should have known better and he will have to pay for his stupidity.
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Old 19th January 2020, 07:01 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
What a ******* load. Neither the tradition of the stupid joke nor others' lack of offense exonerates the teacher.

As for the teacher being fired, that would seem to be up to the school district, not the people bringing the suit. The court can't hand down a verdict that includes termination of the teacher's employment and I strongly doubt that such a request is included in the lawsuit. Some additional sensitivity training should take care of that part of the problem.

Is this worth a payment of millions of dollars? No, probably not. It's worth the payment of something, though. People need to stop doing this **** and public schools have a particular responsibility to provide an environment where racism, sexism, etc. are actively, constantly discouraged.
I disagree. The history provides evidence to help mitigate any accusation of racisim or deliberate offence. Yes some racists hide behind the "it was a mistake" defence, however If they keep doing it, have a history of racisim or related bigotry, or become violent in their methods, thats the point where that defence does not become viable.
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Old 20th January 2020, 05:35 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you read the accounts of black USA service men coming to the UK during WW2 they were greeted with open arms. Indeed the American officers tried to get the British to segregate and treat the black servicemen badly.

That of course is not to deny racism in the UK, it has at times been terrible but we never had legal segregation and so on. However we do seem to have "unconsciously" as a society adopted a lot of USA attitudes and even grievances.
Well there was initially blocking of allowing black women to serve in the land army to help farmers in WWII, under the argument that no farmer would want them. Then one stepped up and said he did and that went away. This was covered in an episode of Wartime Farm.
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Old 20th January 2020, 06:05 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
People need to stop doing this **** and public schools have a particular responsibility to provide an environment where racism, sexism, etc. are actively, constantly discouraged.
People are never, ever going to stop doing this ****, because to screw up in boneheaded ways every once in a while is what human do.
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Old 20th January 2020, 06:38 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
People are never, ever going to stop doing this ****, because to screw up in boneheaded ways every once in a while is what human do.
*humans
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Old 20th January 2020, 06:47 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
People are never, ever going to stop doing this ****, because to screw up in boneheaded ways every once in a while is what human do.
"We're never gonna get white people to stop using monkey/ape imagery in references to blacks so don't even try" is... novel.
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Old 20th January 2020, 09:11 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Juries award unrealistic amounts
In your opinion. Under our Constitution, juries get to decide that, and no one else. Of course, the Constitution is basically toilet paper these days.
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Old 20th January 2020, 10:32 PM   #318
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It is easy to feel outrage in response to some jury decisions with which we disagree. And yes some juries do make errors based on manipulation by the lawyers, or their own prejudices, or... But a friend of mine reminded me that they where there and I wasn’t. They heard facts and evidence I did not. They heard in person the relevant testimony. They were instructed by the judge as to the law and their own options and responsibilities; I was not.

It is important to remember this before believing a jury was in error in their judgement or award. They know more about the case than we do. And no, we are not routinely so much smarter than the jury however much we would like to believe it.
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Old 20th January 2020, 11:35 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I wouldn't, but I'd sure be interested in living in a society in which no member of it would even consider that combining an image of a black person with the word "monkey" was defensible!
Either we have laws to control such behavior, or I want people free to be able to "correct" people that pull that **** by whatever means they chose. Society MUST be able to make bad actors conform to the norms.
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Old 21st January 2020, 12:28 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It is easy to feel outrage in response to some jury decisions with which we disagree. And yes some juries do make errors based on manipulation by the lawyers, or their own prejudices, or... But a friend of mine reminded me that they where there and I wasn’t. They heard facts and evidence I did not. They heard in person the relevant testimony. They were instructed by the judge as to the law and their own options and responsibilities; I was not.

It is important to remember this before believing a jury was in error in their judgement or award. They know more about the case than we do. And no, we are not routinely so much smarter than the jury however much we would like to believe it.
It can also be that the Jury hasn't seen or heard the evidence that we think is relevant or shows guilt or innocence. The defence or prosecution may not be aware of it, the evidence was not allowed by the judge because of reason X, many different reasons.
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