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Tags atheists , Lawrence Krauss , sexual misconduct charges

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Old 16th March 2018, 05:26 AM   #721
I Am The Scum
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And that reason would be...
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Old 16th March 2018, 07:44 AM   #722
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
And that reason would be...
The same reason you don't go out and skeptically evaluate every claim everywhere all the time, but only the ones that are brought to your attention and catch your interest.

But having a claim brought to your attention is not itself evidence that the claim is true.
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Old 16th March 2018, 08:57 AM   #723
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I don't see why accusations are being discounted as evidence. If a police dispatcher gets a call saying "A bunch of guys with guns just ran into the bank across the street, and I can hear gunshots now," that is an accusation that constitutes evidence that a crime is in progress.
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They're rolling with a made-up definition of evidence, where it's not evidence until the bullet holes are verified by the cops. : rolleyes :
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If you don't count eyewitness testimony as a form of evidence, it makes things so much simpler.
You know what? Fine. Obviously we're never going to see eye to eye on this. If I think of an argument that might persuade you, I'll start a thread and give it a try there.

Here, though, I'm content to stipulate, for the sake of argument, that accusations of a crime are evidence of a crime.

So what now? Three people have accused Krauss of groping someone during a photo shoot. Alright, so that's evidence consistent with groping, we think.

However, the alleged victim has not made any such accusation. Is that also evidence? Evidence consistent with not-groping? And of course there are many more than three people who were present at the photo shoot, who have not made any accusations. Is that also evidence? Hell, Krauss himself denies the allegations. Is that evidence as well? After all, he was there. He should know better than anyone what actually happened.
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Old 16th March 2018, 09:15 AM   #724
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Quote:
Hell, Krauss himself denies the allegations. Is that evidence as well?
Yes. This is the third time I've answered this question, but yeah, that's (in part) why defendants are allowed to give their sides of stories before juries.
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Old 16th March 2018, 09:42 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yes. This is the third time I've answered this question, but yeah, that's (in part) why defendants are allowed to give their sides of stories before juries.
So what do we conclude from all this evidence? Obviously we're not saying, "we know Krauss did it because three people accused him, and that's evidence." We're not saying that, right?
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Old 16th March 2018, 11:54 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So what do we conclude from all this evidence? Obviously we're not saying, "we know Krauss did it because three people accused him, and that's evidence." We're not saying that, right?
I think the weight of the evidence strongly favors something having happened there, but judging such things is somewhat subjective.

This is the world of opinion, not fact.
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Old 16th March 2018, 12:52 PM   #727
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think the weight of the evidence strongly favors something having happened there, but judging such things is somewhat subjective.

This is the world of opinion, not fact.
I have no issue with anyone making that judgement. I have an issue with them using an admittedly unreliable judgement ti destroy someone's life.
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Old 16th March 2018, 12:59 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I have no issue with anyone making that judgement. I have an issue with them using an admittedly unreliable judgement ti destroy someone's life.
Agreed, but that swings all ways (towards accusers deemed liars by the masses, too) and I don't see any way out of any of it.
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Old 16th March 2018, 01:27 PM   #729
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Agreed, but that swings all ways (towards accusers deemed liars by the masses, too) and I don't see any way out of any of it.
Well, the accusers actually provide documentation upon which to base a judgement: Their accusations are a matter of public record. The alleged crime they're accusing someone of isn't.

I think it's not the same thing at all to judge accusers based on things we know they've actually done.
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Old 16th March 2018, 02:13 PM   #730
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well, the accusers actually provide documentation upon which to base a judgement: Their accusations are a matter of public record. The alleged crime they're accusing someone of isn't.

I think it's not the same thing at all to judge accusers based on things we know they've actually done.
You don't know if the accuser has made a true statement or a false one.
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Old 16th March 2018, 02:18 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You don't know if the accuser has made a true statement or a false one.
I do, however, know that they've made an unsupported statement.
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Old 16th March 2018, 02:21 PM   #732
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I do, however, know that they've made an unsupported statement.
Oh, come on. Just because a crime doesn't leave hard evidence doesn't obligate the victim to never utter a word.

An unsupported claim is a bad thing when the claim should be supportable, i.e., "I can predict the future because I'm psychic."
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Old 16th March 2018, 02:33 PM   #733
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Christina Rad gives her account of inappropriate touching from Krauss. Sounds almost like she read this thread in regards to evidence etc.

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Old 16th March 2018, 03:01 PM   #734
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Christina is so rad.

"...bitch, don't freaking touch me!"
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Old 16th March 2018, 03:32 PM   #735
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Christina is so rad.

"...bitch, don't freaking touch me!"
Ack...23 mins. So are you summing it up? He touched her and she said "...bitch, don't freaking touch me!"?
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Old 16th March 2018, 03:36 PM   #736
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The assumption that people do things for their benefits is the basis for my argument that we can infer that they want to benefit from what they're doing. The one leads directly to the other.
If you are proposing some form of psychological egoism - or the impossibility of pure altruism - to explain people’s behaviour then you may be ultimately correct but it is functionally useless for this, or almost any, discussion since psychological egoism argues that everything from anonymous sacrifice to pure greed is ultimately the same and it adds nothing to the more prosaic claim that obvious conflicts of interests need to be treated with suspicion.

For example, while some people such as noted butt-hurt anti-skeptics may go after Krauss because of some hatred of skepticism, atheism or his associates, and have some malicious motives for their actions, there may also be those who thought that what Krauss allegedly did was simply wrong and that those people believe they have to speak out even though the apparent non-altruistic benefits they hope to receive are to ease their conscience or to ... feel free to guffaw ... make society slightly better.

Certainly in this case, Christina Rad appears to begin this with some claims that she is not motivated by what - even under a psychological egoist stance - are recognized as obvious conflicts of interest...

Originally Posted by nelsondogg View Post
Christina Rad gives her account of inappropriate touching from Krauss. Sounds almost like she read this thread in regards to evidence etc.

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Old 16th March 2018, 03:45 PM   #737
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Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
Ack...23 mins. So are you summing it up? He touched her and she said "...bitch, don't freaking touch me!"?
If you aren't willing to invest 20 minutes to hear a firsthand account, then you don't really give a half a **** about the topic at hand.
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Old 16th March 2018, 03:57 PM   #738
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If you aren't willing to invest 20 minutes to hear a firsthand account, then you don't really give a half a **** about the topic at hand.
Ok I did it.. I did not need to listen to the whole thing as she covers it in the first 6-10min, I had to turn on CC though. Yay I give half a..
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Old 16th March 2018, 04:06 PM   #739
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Consider my snark retracted.
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Old 16th March 2018, 08:55 PM   #740
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
<Snip>
Sexual abuse of women is the most believed crime according to statistics ...
<snip>
Now there's a claim I need a cite for.
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Old 16th March 2018, 10:34 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You know what? Fine. Obviously we're never going to see eye to eye on this. If I think of an argument that might persuade you, I'll start a thread and give it a try there.
If my principle holds, then we have two important follow-ups:

1. Anyone saying "there is no evidence against Krauss" is wrong.
2. Since there is evidence, our next question is, what is the best explanation for this evidence?

I think the best explanation is that there's some truth to the accusations, enough to raise a reasonable concern for the safety and well-being of conference attendees.

The alternatative would be an international conspiracy to frame a guy for being kinda creepy, among conspirators who don't appear know each other. I think we can rule that one out.

If anyone has a third option, I'm open to suggestions.
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Old 16th March 2018, 11:02 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If my principle holds, then we have two important follow-ups:

1. Anyone saying "there is no evidence against Krauss" is wrong.
2. Since there is evidence, our next question is, what is the best explanation for this evidence?

I think the best explanation is that there's some truth to the accusations, enough to raise a reasonable concern for the safety and well-being of conference attendees.

The alternatative would be an international conspiracy to frame a guy for being kinda creepy, among conspirators who don't appear know each other. I think we can rule that one out.

If anyone has a third option, I'm open to suggestions.
I think 2 should be how reliable is the evidence
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Old 21st March 2018, 10:13 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by kellyb
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Is it case of "more stripes more Adidas"? Why the hell you think dozens of witnesses would improve anything??? WHY?????????????????????????
Link 1:
Quote:
“The women touched in this case were strangers to the defendant, and he did not have permission to grab their buttocks,” the decision read. “Witnesses described the defendant leering, stalking, and eventually touching or grabbing his victims in a private, sexualized area, in front of a crowd. This was within the universe of conduct that a reasonable trier of fact could consider criminally offensive under community standards of decency and morality.”
Link 2:
Quote:
Sex Crimes Squad Commander Linda Howlett said women should immediately alert people around them, to create witnesses and give police a better chance of prosecuting.
Only one single witness here:
Quote:
FBI agents arrested Camp after the flight landed at Portland International Airport. Authorities said a flight attendant delivering snacks noticed Camp's hand in the girl's crotch area and a tear falling down her face.
------------------------------------

Do you agree that witness testimony is evidence?
Partial evidence.

False memory

And I know get hit by it from time to time when trying too hard to remember something. Fortunately, I never was witness to any crime...

ETA: And false memory is just one of many problems with witnesses. Often they get confused,have bad angle of view and so on. They are not reliable by any means. (Some of your articles touched upon that too BTW)

Quote:
Quote:
Without any other evidence , witness is useless.
Show me a few cases where 3 or more witnesses were considered useless.
I could try to hunt down cases where there were only witnesses and nothing else (no other evidence), but articles would be unreadable to you... and such cases are very rare since they usually don't get to court at all. (Either police ceases investigation or state attorney decides not to pursue that)
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Old 21st March 2018, 10:24 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think 2 should be how reliable is the evidence
When all you have are three prejudiced witnesses who discussed it afterward, and not even complaint from allegedly harmed victim, there is problem.
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Old 25th March 2018, 08:00 PM   #745
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Catching up on this subject late, I am puzzled by the talk about evidence and trials and such in here. There's no criminal accusation or trial, just a matter of someone's personal reputation. You are free not to take an accuser's word for it, or not to take a dozen accusers' words for it, but, in the strict kind of legal sense yall seem to be going for, there's nothing wrong with taking the accuser's/accusers' word(s) for it either; there's no set of rules of evidence to stick to.

Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
Skeptic meetups seem like a bunch of awkward people with little social skill hanging out and not knowing how to act. (from the outside)
Christina Rad's video on this subject treated it as such. (She's the young Romanian woman with long blonde hair whom a lot of people here might might remember for YouTube videos on religion & atheism from a few years ago, although we haven't heard much from her lately til this.) She said that in her experience Krauss seemed not "predatory" but "freaking clueless", thinking that his behavior either was normal or would be welcome/wanted.

She also reacted to a story from another woman, which Krauss had talked about as a shocking case himself because that woman had been "extremely flirtatious" with him, so all he thought he did was reciprocate. Christina says that in that woman's position, her job (essentially a party promoter or host) was to treat (potential?) party-goers in a "flirty" and "bubbly" manner, essentially the same behavior as trying to make guys think she wants them, so it might have been reasonable enough for one to think she actually meant the way she was acting. (Side note: she didn't suggest the corollary that a bunch of these kinds of problems would be prevented if women were more honest, but, of course, nobody ever does.) Her issue was with the next step after the man receives that signal: no matter how sure you are that she wants you, you sliding a hand around her thigh still isn't the best place to start your "game".

I guess having these stories & reactions out there is a good thing if some people simply being that clueless is what's been going on here, but not knowing something so obvious is a bit of a stretch of the imagination.

Since I was watching this on YouTube, it reminded me of the fact that YouTube has lots of videos about how to spot whether a woman is attracted to you, but not so many about what to do next if she is...
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Old 26th March 2018, 11:20 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
She also reacted to a story from another woman, which Krauss had talked about as a shocking case himself because that woman had been "extremely flirtatious" with him, so all he thought he did was reciprocate. Christina says that in that woman's position, her job (essentially a party promoter or host) was to treat (potential?) party-goers in a "flirty" and "bubbly" manner, essentially the same behavior as trying to make guys think she wants them, so it might have been reasonable enough for one to think she actually meant the way she was acting. (Side note: she didn't suggest the corollary that a bunch of these kinds of problems would be prevented if women were more honest, but, of course, nobody ever does.) Her issue was with the next step after the man receives that signal: no matter how sure you are that she wants you, you sliding a hand around her thigh still isn't the best place to start your "game".
Men really need to learn that when a woman is paid to be nice to them they are not flirting. Whether she is a waitress or the office equipment sales professional. It has nothing to do with honesty.
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Old 26th March 2018, 11:52 AM   #747
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Men really need to learn that when a woman is paid to be nice to them they are not flirting. Whether she is a waitress or the office equipment sales professional. It has nothing to do with honesty.
"Paid to be nice" is one way to put it
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Old 26th March 2018, 12:04 PM   #748
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"Paid to be nice" is one way to put it
I didn't intend it to be a euphemism. All relationships depend on a certain degree of cordiality, whether they be retail customer relationships or professional sales or service.
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Old 26th March 2018, 01:12 PM   #749
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I thought that that is what a relationship is? A man pays a woman to be nice
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Old 26th March 2018, 04:02 PM   #750
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I thought that that is what a relationship is? A man pays a woman to be nice
Sounds like you've never had a real relationship ....
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Old 26th March 2018, 04:15 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Sounds like you've never had a real relationship ....
Some have to accept the only thing they can get, I guess.
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Old 26th March 2018, 04:19 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Sounds like you've never had a real relationship ....
it's a joke lol. I'm in a nearly 9 year relationship
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Old 26th March 2018, 04:33 PM   #753
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
it's a joke lol. I'm in a nearly 9 year relationship
How long you've been paying her/him/it is irrelevant.
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Old 26th March 2018, 05:12 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
How long you've been paying her/him/it is irrelevant.
only 2 of those years!

/s
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Old 27th March 2018, 08:25 AM   #755
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If my principle holds, then we have two important follow-ups:

1. Anyone saying "there is no evidence against Krauss" is wrong.
2. Since there is evidence, our next question is, what is the best explanation for this evidence?

I think the best explanation is that there's some truth to the accusations, enough to raise a reasonable concern for the safety and well-being of conference attendees.

The alternatative would be an international conspiracy to frame a guy for being kinda creepy, among conspirators who don't appear know each other. I think we can rule that one out.

If anyone has a third option, I'm open to suggestions.
The third option would be a moral panic causing people to see/recall/infer something that didn't actually happen, much like the Great Monopod Upskirt Panic of 2012.

(Don't think that's nearly likely in this case, but the possibility has to be considered.)
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Last edited by d4m10n; 27th March 2018 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 07:08 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Looking back at the list from earlier...

Attachment 33226

Allegations against Krauss were withdrawn when he mentioned the possibility of lawyering up.

Allegations against Shermer remain in play.

Allegations against Grothe/Randi were based on false reporting, e.g. Monopod Man.

Allegations against Radford categorically withdrawn.

Allegations against Nye were too tenuously evidenced even for PZ to get behind.
Update to my update from much earlier...

Allegations against Krauss have been reported out by Buzzfeed News.

Allegations against Shermer have been reported out by Buzzfeed News.

Allegations against Grothe/Randi are generally taken to be true within the social justice wing of the atheist movement, though not widely known or believed elsewhere.

Allegations against Radford remain withdrawn, at least for now.

Allegations against Nye have been memory-holed, at least for now.

No guess as to whom we will find next having their turn in the barrel.
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