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Tags Boris Johnson , Nigel Farage , uk elections , uk politics

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Old 30th October 2019, 05:13 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It is a fact that there are elements within the Scottish nationalist movement that are deeply racist, with a total hatred of the English.

You can just stop that right now, even with the mealy-mouthed "but most of them aren't like that" bit tacked on.

It's a complete and utter fabricated smear. It's not true, it never was true and hopefully it will never be true. If you want racist, try looking a bit further south.
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Old 30th October 2019, 06:47 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What a moronic thing to say. I have a greater understanding of politics than most other posters here - certainly greater than you.
Appealing to your own (unsubstantiated) authority always goes down well on a skeptics' discussion forum. I would submit, though, that the belief that the LibDems are loony left-wing idealists somewhat undermines this appeal, while casting into doubt all your other political opinions.

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Old 30th October 2019, 06:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Shame 16 year olds and EU nationals will not be voting after all.
Uh, why should people who are NOT UK citizens be allowed to vote in a UK election?
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Old 30th October 2019, 10:42 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's the latest left wing plot - an attempt to stop people using the English language. Words like 'scum' exist because they're good descriptive useful words. There are many MPs right now that richly deserve the epithet. I live in hope that many of them will lose their privileged positions and well paid jobs in the forthcoming election.
And if hate speech inspires patriots to take the lives of these vermin in the name of the master race it will be for the greater good of the fatherland.
Heil Boris.
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Old 30th October 2019, 10:49 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's the latest left wing plot - an attempt to stop people using the English language. Words like 'scum' exist because they're good descriptive useful words. There are many MPs right now that richly deserve the epithet. I live in hope that many of them will lose their privileged positions and well paid jobs in the forthcoming election.
You haven't answered the question as to how you would describe Mark Reckless and the other representatives who switched to the Brexit party without standing down.. I am just trying to work out whether you are intellectually consistent or whether you only regurgitate extremist right wing hate speech
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Old 30th October 2019, 10:50 PM   #46
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Old 30th October 2019, 10:53 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You can throw away your vote in a brave Anti Establishment way, or actually vote in a way that might accomplish something.
No I can't. I have no way to do the latter in this current system. As I explained.
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Old 30th October 2019, 10:54 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Uh, why should people who are NOT UK citizens be allowed to vote in a UK election?
Why should people who have lived here for 18 years get a vote whereas people who gave lived here paying taxes contributing to society for 30 yesrs should not?
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Old 30th October 2019, 10:55 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What a moronic thing to say. I have a greater understanding of politics than most other posters here - certainly greater than you.
Evidence?
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Old 30th October 2019, 10:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Uh, why should people who are NOT UK citizens be allowed to vote in a UK election?
Because they live in the UK and the decisions made will affect them as. much if not more than UK citizens. No taxation without representation and all that good stuff.

Why should a vote be limited to citizens?
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Old 30th October 2019, 11:37 PM   #51
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Like Australia, whoever gets in, the country loses. If I was a voter there I would vote Green, just as I will here. Sure a wasted vote, but a clearer conscience.
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Old 30th October 2019, 11:44 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Like Australia, whoever gets in, the country loses. If I was a voter there I would vote Green, just as I will here. Sure a wasted vote, but a clearer conscience.
The greens are ok on some issues. Bonkers on others.
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Old 31st October 2019, 12:08 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The greens are ok on some issues. Bonkers on others.
Agreed, which makes my decision, as a lifetime Labor voter, significant. I’m prepared to put up with their bonkers policies just to see serious action on the climate. Yes, I won’t see this soon, but some day....
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Old 31st October 2019, 12:48 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
I'm sure there are plenty of lessons that could be learned from Scotland, where Free Personal Care has been in place for a number of years. I'm no longer directly involved, and I haven't read any analysis on the situation for a while, but my recollection from when I was working there was that it was a fine principle, and had a very direct impact on a lot of people, but that the long-term future was unsustainable with an aging population and raised expectations. Some sort of means-tested process is, I think, almost inevitable, though it can be something of a nightmare to administrate.
Long term I agree, but we need in most parts of the country to get care to a good standard for the poorest, then we can tweak it.
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Old 31st October 2019, 12:50 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
My vote never makes any difference (except in referendums) - I live in one of the safest seats in the country. None of the parties ever put any effort into campaigning in this constituency - they all know the result is a foregone conclusion.
Sadly it's the same for me. However the current independent MP is Dominic Grieves and despite what a noisy anti-grieves would have one believe he's personally very popular.
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Old 31st October 2019, 12:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It is a fact that there are elements within the Scottish nationalist movement that are deeply racist, with a total hatred of the English. Most of them are not like that though - in the same way that most supporters of the Brexit party are not narrow minded bigots.

It's the Lib Dems themselves that are most bigoted. I find offensive their attitude that everyone who doesn't support their loony left-wing ideals must be irrational, racist or uncaring.
Er the LibDems aren't lefties...
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Old 31st October 2019, 12:55 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
And if hate speech inspires patriots to take the lives of these vermin in the name of the master race it will be for the greater good of the fatherland.

Heil Boris.
It's not an if, it already happened.
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Old 31st October 2019, 01:05 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Except that Labour is pro-Brexit. I have no confidence that Corbyn won't renege on the second referendum.
It doesn't matter whether you have confidence he won't renege, you can have confidence that Boris won't. And, at the very least, you should be able to have confidence that Corbyn will want to negotiate a softer Brexit than either of the last two prime ministers.

You should also bear in mind that Labour almost certainly won't get a majority, meaning that Corbyn won't be able to force anything through. The third-largest party, who he will most likely have to form a coalition with to become PM (assuming no Tory majority), will most likely be the Lib Dems and their position is to revoke Article 50 all together. Likely other remain parties, as well. So if Labour's position moves, then it should be slightly more towards "remain" than towards "leave".

The point is that it seems somewhat silly to hold the position that you don't trust Labour to cancel Brexit, so you'll happily hand the election to the Tories who definitely won't. If you honestly think that Brexit will be bad for the UK, then you should vote tactically to get the Tories out. The Tories not having a majority is the only possible way for Brexit not to happen, and if it does happen for it not to be the most harmful Brexit possible.

My entire life I've voted for whichever parties policies most closely match my own opinions. Not this time, because there's a unique catastrophe in our near future and the only way to prevent it (not to mention all the other horrors this very right-wing government would foist on us) is to get the Tories out of power. And the only way to do that is for everybody to vote tactically.
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Old 31st October 2019, 01:49 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Like Australia, whoever gets in, the country loses. If I was a voter there I would vote Green, just as I will here. Sure a wasted vote, but a clearer conscience.
I'm thinking maybe everyone who lives in a safe seat should maybe vote Green to drive up their share of the vote. It might highlight the failures of the system if they ended up on 5% of the vote and only got 1 (or even no) MP.
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Old 31st October 2019, 02:06 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It is a fact that there are elements within the Scottish nationalist movement that are deeply racist, with a total hatred of the English. ...
IME that is not true. I come from an English family, but was born and live in Scotland. I have experienced regular anti-English comments (I also get anti-Scottish comments when back in England).

Family friends are SNP activists, the father is a former president of the SNP. A friend lives next door to a senior member of the SNP. I have been to plenty of gatherings with many SNP there and I have never experienced anything from those who are in the party, senior or volunteers.

They make it clear, they do not dislike the English, they dislike Westminster. Big difference.

All of the actual anti-English comments have been from random people, drunks in pubs, work colleagues.
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Old 31st October 2019, 02:10 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Uh, why should people who are NOT UK citizens be allowed to vote in a UK election?
I presume that what was being suggested was that EU nationals who are now resident and working in the UK and meet some criteria to qualify get to vote.

Plenty of Scots were barred from voting in the Scottish Independence referendum because they were not resident in Scotland at the time. Decisions were made as to who got to vote in the Brexit referendum.
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Old 31st October 2019, 02:16 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Uh, why should people who are NOT UK citizens be allowed to vote in a UK election?
People from 53 Commonwealth countries (incl a couple of suspended members) who are resident in the UK can vote in UK general elections. I don't see why EU citizens resident in the UK shouldn't have the same rights.
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Old 31st October 2019, 02:32 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'm thinking maybe everyone who lives in a safe seat should maybe vote Green to drive up their share of the vote. It might highlight the failures of the system if they ended up on 5% of the vote and only got 1 (or even no) MP.
it would be hard to get a better example of the distortion than Scotland in 2015 GE. 56 of 59 seats went to the SNP who got a shade under 50% of the vote.

Last edited by Lothian; 31st October 2019 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 31st October 2019, 02:44 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
it would be hard to get a better example of the distortion than Scotland in 2015 GE. 56 of 59 seats went to the SNP who got a shade under 50% of the vote.
And we will end up with a government who wield absolute power to do whatever they please to the whole of the UK on about two-thirds of that share.

Of course it's not in the Tory's or Labour's interests to change the system so it will never happen.
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:01 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
People from 53 Commonwealth countries (incl a couple of suspended members) who are resident in the UK can vote in UK general elections. I don't see why EU citizens resident in the UK shouldn't have the same rights.
We need a referendum on our Commonwealth membership. They rule over us with no say and it is a total loss of sovereignty to be in the Commonwealth. Plus immigrants.
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:04 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Uh, why should people who are NOT UK citizens be allowed to vote in a UK election?
Some already can, if they have leave to enter or remain in the UK. Your neighbours to the north, and some of those to the south, for example.

https://www.electoralcommission.org....e-your-details
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:10 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
IME that is not true. I come from an English family, but was born and live in Scotland. I have experienced regular anti-English comments (I also get anti-Scottish comments when back in England).

Family friends are SNP activists, the father is a former president of the SNP. A friend lives next door to a senior member of the SNP. I have been to plenty of gatherings with many SNP there and I have never experienced anything from those who are in the party, senior or volunteers.

They make it clear, they do not dislike the English, they dislike Westminster. Big difference.

All of the actual anti-English comments have been from random people, drunks in pubs, work colleagues.

This. Thank you.
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:47 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Of course it's not in the Tory's or Labour's interests to change the system so it will never happen.
I think it probably is in Labour's interests now that the SNP exists. They're very unlikely to get a majority these days, now that Scotland has turned from red to yellow. This will be even more true if Brexit happens and Scotland does decide to leave the UK.
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Old 31st October 2019, 04:20 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I think it probably is in Labour's interests now that the SNP exists. They're very unlikely to get a majority these days, now that Scotland has turned from red to yellow. This will be even more true if Brexit happens and Scotland does decide to leave the UK.
Mathematically it might be about breakeven for Labour but they still harbour ambitions of being a majority government so they don't want to lose FPTP.
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Old 31st October 2019, 04:20 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It doesn't matter whether you have confidence he won't renege, you can have confidence that Boris won't. And, at the very least, you should be able to have confidence that Corbyn will want to negotiate a softer Brexit than either of the last two prime ministers.

You should also bear in mind that Labour almost certainly won't get a majority, meaning that Corbyn won't be able to force anything through. The third-largest party, who he will most likely have to form a coalition with to become PM (assuming no Tory majority), will most likely be the Lib Dems and their position is to revoke Article 50 all together. Likely other remain parties, as well. So if Labour's position moves, then it should be slightly more towards "remain" than towards "leave".

The point is that it seems somewhat silly to hold the position that you don't trust Labour to cancel Brexit, so you'll happily hand the election to the Tories who definitely won't. If you honestly think that Brexit will be bad for the UK, then you should vote tactically to get the Tories out. The Tories not having a majority is the only possible way for Brexit not to happen, and if it does happen for it not to be the most harmful Brexit possible.

My entire life I've voted for whichever parties policies most closely match my own opinions. Not this time, because there's a unique catastrophe in our near future and the only way to prevent it (not to mention all the other horrors this very right-wing government would foist on us) is to get the Tories out of power. And the only way to do that is for everybody to vote tactically.
This is an excellent post, which I'm nicking for Facebook. You're absolutely right - stopping Brexit is more important than any ideology. I was previously undecided on who to vote for, but Labour have the best chance of beating our (revolting) sitting Tory, so they get my vote.
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Old 31st October 2019, 04:23 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And we will end up with a government who wield absolute power to do whatever they please to the whole of the UK on about two-thirds of that share.

Of course it's not in the Tory's or Labour's interests to change the system so it will never happen.
Unfortunately, when we had the chance for change with the alternative vote referendum, we blew it. Badly.
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Old 31st October 2019, 04:26 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Unfortunately, when we had the chance for change with the alternative vote referendum, we blew it. Badly.
Yes, but that was because neither of the big 2 parties were interested in change.

One of the reasons why I am so in favour of Scottish Independence is that it is one of the few avenues open for significant change in UK politics. The current Westminster system is horrible but everything is far too entrenched to actually get any kind of proper change instigated.
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Old 31st October 2019, 04:29 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
This is an excellent post, which I'm nicking for Facebook. You're absolutely right - stopping Brexit is more important than any ideology. I was previously undecided on who to vote for, but Labour have the best chance of beating our (revolting) sitting Tory, so they get my vote.
Unfortunately the Lib Dems have blown it, because I won't vote for anyone who would block the right of the people of Scotland to vote on independence. That's more important to me than Brexit.

There's basically nobody in my constituency worth voting for. I am hearing Greens may drop out in places they don't look competitive in which case I may not even bother voting at all.
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Old 31st October 2019, 06:20 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I think it probably is in Labour's interests now that the SNP exists. They're very unlikely to get a majority these days, now that Scotland has turned from red to yellow. This will be even more true if Brexit happens and Scotland does decide to leave the UK.

It's very rare for a Labour government that has been elected to have required the Scottish seats they won to do that. Tony Blair's landelides would have happened even if they hadn't won a single seat in Scotland.
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Old 31st October 2019, 06:23 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Unfortunately, when we had the chance for change with the alternative vote referendum, we blew it. Badly.

I remember arguing vociferously for a Yes in that referendum, not on the grounds that AV was a good idea, but on the grounds that if it was a No vote we'd be told that the British people had ratified FPTP and that was decided, forever.

But in reality (and I've seen the figures worked through somewhere), AV is even more inclined to favour the "big two" and wouldn't have helped in the slightest. It was an absolute stroke of genius of Cameron to substitute "PR" with an option that's nothing like PR and could be knocked over like an Aunt Sally.
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Old 31st October 2019, 06:41 AM   #76
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Apparently Boris Johnson is ditching Uxbridge and South Ruislip (majority of 5,034) and scarpering off to stand in Rutland & Melton (majority of 23,104).
He only got in because of his opposition to Heathrow runway 3.
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Old 31st October 2019, 07:36 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently Boris Johnson is ditching Uxbridge and South Ruislip (majority of 5,034) and scarpering off to stand in Rutland & Melton (majority of 23,104).
He only got in because of his opposition to Heathrow runway 3.
The coward. Again.
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Old 31st October 2019, 07:57 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently Boris Johnson is ditching Uxbridge and South Ruislip (majority of 5,034) and scarpering off to stand in Rutland & Melton (majority of 23,104).
He only got in because of his opposition to Heathrow runway 3.
It did sound a bit precarious when someone mentioned he only had a smallish majority on TV recently. He will look a bit of a div if he moves seat but on the other hand I doubt he will care if it means he doesn't have to worry about getting re-elected.
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Old 31st October 2019, 07:59 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Labour have two challenges, they need to explain how they will fund Brexit and they also need to explain how they will fund all of their post-election spending promises (the Conservatives have the same challenge, but their spending plans don't seem to be quite as grandiose).

One thing I find really interesting about one of Labour's pledges is to cover personal care for the elderly. Those who have low incomes and/or few assets already have this covered. It's people like my father, decent occupational pension and money in the bank, who have to pay for their own care - not unreasonably IMO. This is a policy which will make it easier the middle classes to pass on their houses to their middle aged children and maintain the wealth inequalities which IMO are a major challenge to the UK.
It can work. Here in Finland there is a capped limit to how much the elderly need to contribute towards 24/7 care (iirc it is circa €600-€700 pa max for a hospital bed in a personal room). Thus the rich get to keep their assets and pass it on to the next generation. How is this done, people do pay a higher percentage in income tax but then the average state pension is €2,400 pcm (based on lifetime earnings), university education is free and no-one need worry if they are pregnant or ill as new parents get up to three years leave with their job kept safe.

It's a new SDP government in place but had been a right wing coalition and the True Finns (perusuomalaiset, persut for short) are even more keen on a welfare state for all despite being right wing. So not even a left wing idea.

So there are different models. Even if care for the elderly is eased, it doesn't necessarily follow that the better off are penalised.
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Old 31st October 2019, 08:00 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But in reality (and I've seen the figures worked through somewhere), AV is even more inclined to favour the "big two".
Do you have a cite for this? It would definitely surprise me if it was true.
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