ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 10th November 2017, 12:53 PM   #1521
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,083
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We, the human race cause a lot of our suffering.
No, according to what you believe, the angels of karma already know the outcomes of incarnations and what choices will be made during its life prior to a soul choosing that incarnation.

So basically, some souls are doomed to commit atrocities that will damn them in the future.

How is that free will?
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 01:02 PM   #1522
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,083
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Here are some of the verses in the Quran about what God will do to people and it makes him out to be an insane sadistic monster. No human father or mother would do these things to their children, so why would God?
Yet your version of God is one that creates an incarnation that is going to cause millions of people to suffer horribly if a soul chooses it and even has angels guide certain souls to it. That, in your eyes, is NOT an insane, sadistic monster?
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 01:10 PM   #1523
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It seems to me people in civilised countries are not as barbaric as they were even a few hundred years ago.
In the last century (not "a few hundred years ago") people in "civilised" countries started two (TWO) World Wars that were definitely barbaric and resulted in suffering, misery and slaughter of many millions of people.

In this century, people in "civilised" countries go to war in other peoples countries.

What is your definition of "civilised"? Do you mean "developed"?

Humans are still acting barbaric, as this (recent) past century shows.

Last edited by Zivan; 10th November 2017 at 01:14 PM.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 02:19 PM   #1524
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,930
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We, the human race cause a lot of our suffering. If everyone was a pacifist there could be no wars. We are permitted to learn by trial and error.

Many thousands of years from now there probably will not be any more wars as the human race might have learned its painful lessons.

But, but, but, you say we need the suffering to progress. If we no longer have wars in the future, then planet Earth will have outlived it's usefulness as a place for soul development.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 06:39 AM   #1525
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
In the last century (not "a few hundred years ago") people in "civilised" countries started two (TWO) World Wars that were definitely barbaric and resulted in suffering, misery and slaughter of many millions of people.

In this century, people in "civilised" countries go to war in other peoples countries.

What is your definition of "civilised"? Do you mean "developed"?

Humans are still acting barbaric, as this (recent) past century shows.
A few hundred years ago they burnt people to death in public, and there were torture chambers with the rack, and hot irons. We have abolished slavery, Britain has abolished the death penalty. Women have equal rights, etc.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 06:44 AM   #1526
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,835
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It seems to me people in civilised countries are not as barbaric as they were even a few hundred years ago.
How can that be a good thing in your belief system? You need people to suffer in their earthly incarnations so that they can progress.

You really don't have a good grasp on the actual teachings you keep telling us you have learnt.

You've stripped us of free will and made it a good and necessary thing that we suffer. Horrendous.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 06:50 AM   #1527
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,835
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
A few hundred years ago they burnt people to death in public, and there were torture chambers with the rack, and hot irons. We have abolished slavery, Britain has abolished the death penalty. Women have equal rights, etc.
People are still being burnt to death in public, people are still being tortured, the death penalty still exists, women in many places do not have equal rights.

Your view of the world is as narrow and blinkered as your belief system is.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 06:52 AM   #1528
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Yet your version of God is one that creates an incarnation that is going to cause millions of people to suffer horribly if a soul chooses it and even has angels guide certain souls to it. That, in your eyes, is NOT an insane, sadistic monster?
Have you read the Bhagavad Gita ? In it there is a great civil war and fathers fight against sons and brother against brother. Arjuna is in despair but Krishna says " You speak sincerely ,but your sorrow has no cause. The wise grieve neither for the living or the dead. There has never been a time when you and I and the kings gathered here have not existed, nor will there ever be a time when we will cease to exist."
He goes on to say quiet a lot more to explain that nobody really dies, only the impermanent body. Its worth a read.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 07:28 AM   #1529
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,549
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
People are still being burnt to death in public, people are still being tortured, the death penalty still exists, women in many places do not have equal rights.

Your view of the world is as narrow and blinkered as your belief system is.
This is something I keep coming back to - how parochial these spirits appear to be. Despite apparently having lived many times in many places - including different planets - their perspective seems limited to that of a privileged Westerner.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 07:29 AM   #1530
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,549
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Have you read the Bhagavad Gita ? In it there is a great civil war and fathers fight against sons and brother against brother. Arjuna is in despair but Krishna says " You speak sincerely ,but your sorrow has no cause. The wise grieve neither for the living or the dead. There has never been a time when you and I and the kings gathered here have not existed, nor will there ever be a time when we will cease to exist."
He goes on to say quiet a lot more to explain that nobody really dies, only the impermanent body. Its worth a read.
I have read it. A better question than whether anybody has read it is why anybody should believe that it's true.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 08:06 AM   #1531
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,835
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Have you read the Bhagavad Gita ? In it there is a great civil war and fathers fight against sons and brother against brother. Arjuna is in despair but Krishna says " You speak sincerely ,but your sorrow has no cause. The wise grieve neither for the living or the dead. There has never been a time when you and I and the kings gathered here have not existed, nor will there ever be a time when we will cease to exist."
He goes on to say quiet a lot more to explain that nobody really dies, only the impermanent body. Its worth a read.
Another belief system that holds that we need to suffer so it doesn't matter what happens to us in our earthly incarnation.

How people can subscribe to such bleak, terrifying beliefs is beyond me.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 08:28 AM   #1532
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I have read it. A better question than whether anybody has read it is why anybody should believe that it's true.
The story itself is not true. The Bhagavad Gita is a small part of the book the Mahabharata which is a fiction story. But the spiritual philosophy behind it is uplifting and positive.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 08:30 AM   #1533
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
People are still being burnt to death in public, people are still being tortured, the death penalty still exists, women in many places do not have equal rights.

Your view of the world is as narrow and blinkered as your belief system is.
To much with the negative waves man. You should try looking on the bright side.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 08:34 AM   #1534
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,835
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The story itself is not true. The Bhagavad Gita is a small part of the book the Mahabharata which is a fiction story. But the spiritual philosophy behind it is uplifting and positive.
We really do have a different idea of what is "uplifting and positive".

For you a pregnant woman being repeatedly raped by multiple soldiers and then being disowned by her family and being left destitute is "uplifting and positive". According to you she should be counting her blessings as she must be "evolving" in the spiritual world.

For me it is utterly horrifying and I find myself feeling ashamed that I don't do anything about it beyond supporting a charity that is working with women like her.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 08:36 AM   #1535
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,835
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
To much with the negative waves man. You should try looking on the bright side.

It is not me that holds a bleak outlook on life, it is not me that sees that suffering is a necessity.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 08:42 AM   #1536
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,729
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Another belief system that holds that we need to suffer so it doesn't matter what happens to us in our earthly incarnation.

How people can subscribe to such bleak, terrifying beliefs is beyond me.
Because it's a good excuse to grab what you can and act like a complete **** to everybody else?
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 08:48 AM   #1537
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,837
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Another belief system that holds that we need to suffer so it doesn't matter what happens to us in our earthly incarnation.

How people can subscribe to such bleak, terrifying beliefs is beyond me.
I suppose if you're already suffering through no fault of your own then seeing that suffering as a means to an end can actually make it seem a little less horrifying.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 08:51 AM   #1538
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,835
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I suppose if you're already suffering through no fault of your own then seeing that suffering as a means to an end can actually make it seem a little less horrifying.
And you see others suffering and you think it's their fault (from a past life/sin) so there is no need to help them.




It's a pernicious idea that is at the centre of most of the world's religions.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 09:31 AM   #1539
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is not me that holds a bleak outlook on life, it is not me that sees that suffering is a necessity.
No, I assume you see suffering as pointless. Humans and animals all suffering for nothing. But the struggles of nature force growth and evolution.
Predator and prey both force evolution in each other. Individual animals are killed and eaten, but in the natural world the species evolve through their struggle.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 10:02 AM   #1540
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,549
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The story itself is not true. The Bhagavad Gita is a small part of the book the Mahabharata which is a fiction story. But the spiritual philosophy behind it is uplifting and positive.
Uplifting and positive but untrue. So why should anybody read it in reference to this thread?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 10:06 AM   #1541
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,835
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No, I assume you see suffering as pointless. Humans and animals all suffering for nothing. But the struggles of nature force growth and evolution.
Predator and prey both force evolution in each other. Individual animals are killed and eaten, but in the natural world the species evolve through their struggle.
You seem to have a strange idea of what evolution is. That aside it is your beliefs that requires and needs people to suffer.

In your world the soldiers raping the pregnant woman multiple times are her benefactors as they are - by inflicting suffering on her - helping her to "evolve".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 02:54 PM   #1542
Hungry81
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,511
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You seem to have a strange idea of what evolution is. That aside it is your beliefs that requires and needs people to suffer.

In your world the soldiers raping the pregnant woman multiple times are her benefactors as they are - by inflicting suffering on her - helping her to "evolve".
Not just that, but those same soldiers are selfless heroes because by enabling her spirit to evolve they are setting their own spiritual evolution back. We should be congratulating and celebrating those soldiers for their benevolent acts!
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 03:42 PM   #1543
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,930
@ Scorpion,

I see you did not answer my:

Quote:
But, but, but, you say we need the suffering to progress. If we no longer have wars in the future, then planet Earth will have outlived it's usefulness as a place for soul development.

I do understand why because it illustrates the nonsense you are saying here. If the reason for our existence as mortals, is to experience suffering so we can progress and develop spiritually, then where we live, planet Earth, must remain a place of suffering. Therefore any progress towards a peaceful and caring coexistence must be resisted.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:52 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.