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Old 14th September 2017, 11:30 AM   #81
theprestige
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Then:


Now:



So for those keeping score at home, sir drinks-a-lot and theprestige think a random collection of black-clad goofballs and CNN are bigger threats to free speech than the government... you know, the only one of those three who can actually threaten free speech.
You're wrong.

The sad thing is, there's an interesting discussion to be had about these things, but the progressives on this board have been poisoning the debate for so long (e.g., the post I'm replying to right now) that there's no motivation for me to even try to discuss the issues seriously with you.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:32 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I repeat again: The fact that certain people do not understand that free speech is broader than freedom from governmental regulation is *********** baffling.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Freedom of speech is a fundamental human right, and is a constraint on governmental power.
I'll just let the two of you work this out between yourselves.

Quote:
I have always said, tho, the greatest threat to the freedom of expression comes from the left.
This, in a thread about a Republican White House calling for a private citizen to lose her job because she criticized the president.

Real question: Do you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously?
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're wrong.

The sad thing is, there's an interesting discussion to be had about these things, but the progressives on this board have been poisoning the debate for so long (e.g., the post I'm replying to right now) that there's no motivation for me to even try to discuss the issues seriously with you.
From derp-derp OMG HITLER!!!!11 to taking the high road in the space of two posts.

Might be a new record.

Last edited by johnny karate; 14th September 2017 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:37 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The prestige illustrates a useful point though, one that even Bill Maher made just before the election. When you some folks call pretty much everyone they disagree with, Hitler or NAZIs, people stop listening.
Why is that a useful point to make in a thread in which A) no one did that and B) the topic isn't about that?

Quote:
This latest thing is....a bit of a tempest in a tea pot. No, the white house shouldn't call for journalists to be fired because they criticize Trump. Fortunately its just a stupid thing to do that will only energize his opponents but it is concerning. Sure, the whitehouse can say what ever they want but that doesn't make right and it is the sort of thing a Maduro would do just prior to having the government take over the study and arresting the journalist.
Your glib dismissal of govenment interference in free speech has been noted.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:38 AM   #85
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People do understand that it is possible to conceptualize an action like this and form a reasonable, informed opinion about it and NOT frame it in only "Did the Left or the Right win this time?" context, right?

This might shock our residents of the USA Politics forum but not everybody goes into every discussion about politics concerned only with which sides got more points out of it.

An infinite game of "But the other side did this! / What about when the other side did that? / Oh I guess you'd rather the other side did that?" that never goes anywhere or accomplishes anything is exactly what most people here want.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:39 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'll just let the two of you work this out between yourselves.
?
can a brother get a laughing dog?

Oh man!

Quote:
All of this is to say that if someone is arguing that he or she is not violating free speech when attempting to silence an unpopular opinion or if this person says that something was not technically censored because the government wasn’t involved, he or she does not know what he or she is talking about.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:53 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
They're really not. They're a threat to the individuals for sure. And should be prosecuted accordingly. But they cannot under any circumstances muzzle the overall message. They're just not strong enough.
Exactly.

And where does it end? If I shush someone talking in a movie theater, am I stifling free speech? If a private business throws out a patron screaming obscenities, are they stifling free speech?

This nebulous concept of "free speech" is nothing more than a calculated and cynical political tactic used by people who clearly do not actully care about free speech.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:54 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
People do understand that it is possible to conceptualize an action like this and form a reasonable, informed opinion about it and NOT frame it in only "Did the Left or the Right win this time?" context, right?
Does not compute.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:55 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
can a brother get a laughing dog?
Yeah, I thought you contradicting yourself in the space of two sentences was pretty funny too.

Quote:
Oh man!
You quoted an opinion piece that agrees with you. If I quote two opinion pieces that agree with me, do I win?
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Old 14th September 2017, 12:06 PM   #90
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yeah, I thought you contradicting yourself in the space of two sentences was pretty funny too.

You quoted an opinion piece that agrees with you. If I quote two opinion pieces that agree with me, do I win?
The fact that you think I was contradicting myself is by far and away the clearest example that you have not the first clue what you are talking about. Until we get to this:

"This nebulous concept of "free speech" is nothing more than a calculated and cynical political tactic used by people who clearly do not actully care about free speech."

which, wow.
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Old 14th September 2017, 12:14 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Why is that a useful point to make in a thread in which A) no one did that and B) the topic isn't about that?



Your glib dismissal of govenment interference in free speech has been noted.
Your exaggeration of the....situation is also noted, and kind of goes to the value of my previous post.
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Old 14th September 2017, 12:51 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The fact that you think I was contradicting myself is by far and away the clearest example that you have not the first clue what you are talking about.
Your contradiction is there for all to see. Protip: When attempting to define your concept of free speech that goes beyond mere government intereference, try not to use government interference as a defining term.

Quote:
Until we get to this:

"This nebulous concept of "free speech" is nothing more than a calculated and cynical political tactic used by people who clearly do not actully care about free speech."

which, wow.
Not seeing a rebuttal there. Or even a denial.

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Old 14th September 2017, 12:53 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Your exaggeration of the....situation is also noted, and kind of goes to the value of my previous post.
Kindly point out the exaggeration, and explain why you think it's an exaggeration.

ETA: Also, you didn't answer my question. Is it too optimistic to expect one now?

Last edited by johnny karate; 14th September 2017 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:06 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Your contradiction is there for all to see. Protip: When attempting to define your concept of free speech that goes beyond mere government intereference, try not to use government interference as a defining term.

Not seeing a rebuttal there. Or even a denial.
Missed the part about it being a fundamental human right, huh? Oh well: "All of this is to say that if someone is arguing that he or she is not violating free speech when attempting to silence an unpopular opinion or if this person says that something was not technically censored because the government wasn’t involved, he or she does not know what he or she is talking about."

Rebuttal? Of this?

"This nebulous concept of "free speech" is nothing more than a calculated and cynical political tactic used by people who clearly do not actully care about free speech."

It rebuts itself, it is easily one of the most astonishing things I have read in a long, long time. Calling free speech a "nebulous concept" and a "calculated and cynical political tactic" is unbelievable but then to top it off with the claim that it is used by people who do not care about free speech is stunning in its sheer hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance.

Just next level stuff, the type of thing that one might expect to see written by North Koreans or maybe as part of the wit and wisdom of Josef Stalin. Maybe part of a first draft of Animal Farm or 1984 but taken out because it is so over the top.

In fact, I don't want to be without it so I want your permission to add it to my sig, giving you full credit of course.
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:28 PM   #95
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Radical idea!

None of us are actually for "freedom of speech" because we all have lines we don't want crossed. So really we are only constantly debating where that line should be and throwing around accusations that one is "against freedom of speech" is really rather meaningless.
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:30 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
The show she is currently doing is called SC6. I really don't care what she did previously. In the entertainment industry - it's all about what you are doing today.

Here are some facts about her new show: While they are still the most highly viewed episodes so far, SC6 is down 20% compared to the 2016 SportsCenter.

... the numbers decreased (relative to the previous year) after the first month. That, along with the declines year-over-year around key events, should be cause for more concern.


http://thebiglead.com/2017/05/09/sc6...-sportscenter/
ESPN is hemorrhaging viewers all around. I very much doubt she is the problem. I think a more likely suspect is that their core audience is also the demographic that is most rapidly dumping cable TV in favor of a Netflix/HULU home entertainment option.
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Old 14th September 2017, 02:13 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Radical idea!

None of us are actually for "freedom of speech" because we all have lines we don't want crossed. So really we are only constantly debating where that line should be and throwing around accusations that one is "against freedom of speech" is really rather meaningless.
I once heard it said (paraphrased as I can't find or remember the exact quote) that all discussions about taxes are someone who wants the tax rate to be 25% calling the guy who wants the tax rate to be 26% a fascist and the guy who wants the tax rate to be 26% percent calling the guy who wants the tax rate to be 25% a hippie.

Obviously this was a bit of joking hyperbole to make a point, but it has a valid point.

At this point we as a society have already tested and abandoned a lot of extreme and "all or nothing" view points and are, in general, arguing within smaller and smaller "slices" of some larger hypothetical complete social/political spectrum.

As you say we don't have to acknowledge extremes on either side we've already dismissed as unrealistic in order to discuss where the line should be drawn now.
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Old 14th September 2017, 02:15 PM   #98
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Affence?
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Old 14th September 2017, 02:22 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post

As you say we don't have to acknowledge extremes on either side we've already dismissed as unrealistic in order to discuss where the line should be drawn now.
To paraphrase something I said before, moderation as good is a myth perpetuated by vacillaters.
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Old 14th September 2017, 02:35 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Missed the part about it being a fundamental human right, huh? Oh well: "All of this is to say that if someone is arguing that he or she is not violating free speech when attempting to silence an unpopular opinion or if this person says that something was not technically censored because the government wasn’t involved, he or she does not know what he or she is talking about."

Rebuttal? Of this?
My rebuttal is and remains the verbiage of the First Amendment.

But hey, you've got that opinion piece from Salon.com.

Quote:
"This nebulous concept of "free speech" is nothing more than a calculated and cynical political tactic used by people who clearly do not actully care about free speech."

It rebuts itself, it is easily one of the most astonishing things I have read in a long, long time. Calling free speech a "nebulous concept" and a "calculated and cynical political tactic" is unbelievable but then to top it off with the claim that it is used by people who do not care about free speech is stunning in its sheer hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance.
The operative word in my statement being "This", as in your concept of free speech, not the concept of free speech. Your concept of free speech being a nebulous one without meaning or definition other than what you choose to assign it when it suits your agenda.

Quote:
Just next level stuff, the type of thing that one might expect to see written by North Koreans or maybe as part of the wit and wisdom of Josef Stalin. Maybe part of a first draft of Animal Farm or 1984 but taken out because it is so over the top.
ahhell will be along any moment to tell you how much you're exaggerating. She/he is a real stickler for that.

Quote:
In fact, I don't want to be without it so I want your permission to add it to my sig, giving you full credit of course.
You flatter yourself to think that I care.
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Old 14th September 2017, 02:37 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
ESPN is hemorrhaging viewers all around. I very much doubt she is the problem. I think a more likely suspect is that their core audience is also the demographic that is most rapidly dumping cable TV in favor of a Netflix/HULU home entertainment option.
Declining viewership is my point which you seem to have forgotten.
I stated my opinion that this was a well thought out plan to get attention and obtain higher ratings. I didn't say that she was the problem.
You then argued that her previous works were successful and I made the counterpoint that her current show was down in the ratings.
You have now confirmed what I stated about ratings being down for her show. Thank you.
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Old 14th September 2017, 03:03 PM   #102
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
My rebuttal is and remains the verbiage of the First Amendment.
And does the first amendment fully demarcate the scope of freedom of speech? No.

Does the freedom of speech exist outside the scope of the first amendment? Yes.

Did the freedom of speech exist before the First amendment?
Yes

Does freedom of speech exist where the first amendment does not apply?
Yes.

I have the Salon article, you have this:

"This nebulous concept of "free speech" is nothing more than a calculated and cynical political tactic used by people who clearly do not actully care about free speech."

Which is substantially less than nothing. The assertion that the first amendment and the freedom of speech are interchangeable is utterly, embarrassingly specious.

By the way, and this will no doubt come as a shock, certain states including California have free speech protections that are broader than that afforded under the First Amendment to the US Constitution and therefore can in fact prohibit private entities from restricting free speech:

Quote:
in Robins v. Pruneyard Shopping Center, supra, 23 Cal.3d 899, 910, 153 Cal.Rptr. 854, 592 P.2d 341 (Pruneyard), we held that this provision of our state Constitution grants broader rights to free expression than does the First Amendment to the United States Constitution by holding that a shopping mall is a public forum in which persons may exercise their right to free speech under the California Constitution. We stated that a shopping center "to which the public is invited can provide an essential and invaluable forum for exercising [free speech] rights." (Ibid.) ... Accordingly, we held that the California Constitution "protect[s] speech and petitioning, reasonably exercised, in shopping centers even when the centers are privately owned."
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Old 14th September 2017, 03:03 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Declining viewership is my point which you seem to have forgotten.
I stated my opinion that this was a well thought out plan to get attention and obtain higher ratings. I didn't say that she was the problem.
You then argued that her previous works were successful and I made the counterpoint that her current show was down in the ratings.
You have now confirmed what I stated about ratings being down for her show. Thank you.
Okay I thought you were alleging that she was herself failing. In reality it is the entire business model of her network that needs to be rebooted.

Personally I think ESPN is going to have to go to a more HBO type model.
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Old 14th September 2017, 03:06 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And does the first amendment fully demarcate the scope of freedom of speech? No.

Does the freedom of speech exist outside the scope of the first amendment? Yes.

Did the freedom of speech exist before the First amendment?
Yes

Does freedom of speech exist where the first amendment does not apply?
Yes.
All up for debate.
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Old 14th September 2017, 03:24 PM   #105
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Back on topic. She's sorry about how her tweet appeared to paint ESPN in an unfair light. Still think Trump sucks donkey d***s.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/13/medi...use/index.html
Quote:
"My comments on Twitter expressed my personal beliefs," Hill said. "My regret is that my comments and the public way I made them painted ESPN in an unfair light. My respect for the company and my colleagues remains unconditional."

A few minutes later, ESPN issued a followup statement: "Jemele has a right to her personal opinions, but not to publicly share them on a platform that implies that she was in any way speaking on behalf of ESPN. She has acknowledged that her tweets crossed that line and has apologized for doing so. We accept her apology."
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Old 14th September 2017, 03:28 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
All up for debate.
Something which you have curiously been unable to do. I understand that you do not cotton to abstract concepts, and that is fine, but lets not kid ourselves that asserting that something is "up for a debate" means it is actually so.

I hope that isn't to abstract?
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Old 15th September 2017, 05:01 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Something which you have curiously been unable to do. I understand that you do not cotton to abstract concepts, and that is fine, but lets not kid ourselves that asserting that something is "up for a debate" means it is actually so.

I hope that isn't to abstract?
I don't necessarily disagree with you (my views are more tangential to most people on the issue). But I can play devil's advocate.

Freedom of speech does not exist outside the scope of the first amendment.

That isn't even it. Whether free speech is an issue outside government coercion is entirely based on one's definition of free speech including that possibility or not. Nothing requires people to sign up to yours or anyone else's definition.

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Old 15th September 2017, 06:17 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with you (my views are more tangential to most people on the issue). But I can play devil's advocate.

Freedom of speech does not exist outside the scope of the first amendment.

That isn't even it. Whether free speech is an issue outside government coercion is entirely based on one's definition of free speech including that possibility or not. Nothing requires people to sign up to yours or anyone else's definition.
Freedom pf speech does exist outside the scope of the first amendment as already proven.

Feel free to define free speech yourself then. Perhaps you will find that open minded people would be willing nay DELIGHTED to discuss that.
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Old 15th September 2017, 06:22 AM   #109
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Freedom pf speech does exist outside the scope of the first amendment as already proven.

Feel free to define free speech yourself then. Perhaps you will find that open minded people would be willing nay DELIGHTED to discuss that.
It isnt proven as it isn't something that can be proven. You can't prove freedom of speech exists outside the scope of the first without defining freedom of speech. And you can't force someone to acknowledge the definition you are using.
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Old 15th September 2017, 07:51 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It isnt proven as it isn't something that can be proven. You can't prove freedom of speech exists outside the scope of the first without defining freedom of speech. And you can't force someone to acknowledge the definition you are using.
Wait you just said:

"Freedom of speech does not exist outside the scope of the first amendment."

I am using your definition! I acknowledge your definition. The same one you used there. And I earlier showed that there are states (California) that afford broader free speech protection than does the First Amendment.

The federal First Amendment sets a floor, not a ceiling on freedom of speech.

Say, we make one hell of a team. Think of everything people are learning thanks to you and I, a regular Simonides and Socrates
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Old 15th September 2017, 07:59 AM   #111
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wait you just said:

"Freedom of speech does not exist outside the scope of the first amendment."

I am using your definition! I acknowledge your definition. The same one you used there. And I earlier showed that there are states (California) that afford broader free speech protection than does the First Amendment.

The federal First Amendment sets a floor, not a ceiling on freedom of speech.

Say, we make one hell of a team. Think of everything people are learning thanks to you and I, a regular Simonides and Socrates
You are missing one important scenario. Suppose a venn diagram with all issues covered in free speech in one and all issues covered by first amendment in another. If the free speech circle is contained entirely in the first amendment circle, then state expansion on the first amendment is not affecting free speech issues.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:09 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are missing one important scenario. Suppose a venn diagram with all issues covered in free speech in one and all issues covered by first amendment in another. If the free speech circle is contained entirely in the first amendment circle, then state expansion on the first amendment is not affecting free speech issues.
No I am not missing that scenario, because the State is not expanding the Federal First Amendment circle. The Federal First amendment free speech circle is located within the free speech circle.

QED. Again, we have again worked together to again prove my point again.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:46 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I am not missing that scenario, because the State is not expanding the Federal First Amendment circle. The Federal First amendment free speech circle is located within the free speech circle.

QED. Again, we have again worked together to again prove my point again.
Unless it isn't in the free speech circle but the reverse....the free speech circle is completely covered by the first amendment circle with a bunch of other stuff.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:53 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Unless it isn't in the free speech circle but the reverse....the free speech circle is completely covered by the first amendment circle with a bunch of other stuff.
But we, you and i, just established that it was not because States can and do provide broader protection to free speech than does the first amendment and therefore.... the free speech circle cannot be covered by the first amendment!

quod erat demonstrandum
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:55 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
But we, you and i, just established that it was not because States can and do provide broader protection to free speech than does the first amendment and therefore.... the free speech circle cannot be covered by the first amendment!

quod erat demonstrandum
I did not states were doing that. I didn't agree to it. I say they think they are expanding free speech issues, but they are not.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:22 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Okay I thought you were alleging that she was herself failing. In reality it is the entire business model of her network that needs to be rebooted.

Personally I think ESPN is going to have to go to a more HBO type model.
Will Bill Maher do play by play or color commentary?
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:29 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I did not states were doing that. I didn't agree to it. I say they think they are expanding free speech issues, but they are not.
That is curious, because that is in fact not what you said, and it is without a doubt that they are expanding free speech beyond that provided by the Federal First Amendment.

say, you have not actually blessed us with your definition of free speech.

As such, in the next post I look forward to your sharing it with us:

I think free speech is __________.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:38 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is curious, because that is in fact not what you said, and it is without a doubt that they are expanding free speech beyond that provided by the Federal First Amendment.

say, you have not actually blessed us with your definition of free speech.

As such, in the next post I look forward to your sharing it with us:

I think free speech is __________.
I don't have one and I don't really have a strong interest in the issue. I'm more interested in venn diagrams. If the Venn diagram for speech is defined as fixed, then states can't expand it.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:48 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't have one and I don't really have a strong interest in the issue. I'm more interested in venn diagrams. If the Venn diagram for speech is defined as fixed, then states can't expand it.
Ah, no definition.

You are interested in Venn diagrams! Super. I do not remember anyone saying that free speech is fixed, but lets run with that! Now inside the free speech circle is the Federal First amendment circle. Now the Federal First amendment circle is itself is surrounded by the a broader State's free speech protection! Wheels within wheels!

We have once again shown that the assertion that the first amendment and the freedom of speech are interchangeable is specious.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:52 AM   #120
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ah, no definition.

You are interested in Venn diagrams! Super. I do not remember anyone saying that free speech is fixed, but lets run with that! Now inside the free speech circle is the Federal First amendment circle. Now the Federal First amendment circle is itself is surrounded by the a broader State's free speech protection! Wheels within wheels!

We have once again shown that the assertion that the first amendment and the freedom of speech are interchangeable is specious.
You are taking your interpretation that the first amendment circle is within the free speech circle as right. My point is that does not hold for every party you are talking to.
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