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Old 8th November 2017, 04:06 AM   #201
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Half a peace sign for you!
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:10 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
You may recall a recent thread which debated the right of Google to fire an employee who used a company website to question whether women were as competent as men when it came to computer coding. I believe that our more conservative members argued that the firing of this employee was morally, and perhaps even legally, wrong. And that was an incident in which the employee's opinion was expressed at work and directly contradicted the personnel policies of his company. Unlike the private actions of the woman in this OP.

Unfortunately I cannot currently access the Charlottesville thread to find a more specific Nazi/KKK response to your challenge. But I made it very clear in my OP that I was not discussing the legal right of a company to fire an employee for almost any reason, but their moral right. And in that context I do not see a company rejecting an employe with violent, racist views as morally equivalent to that of firing an employee who simply gave the finger to Trump when his motorcade passed by.
I don't think that that employee, James Damore, was the same as Nazis or the KKK, but I also don't have a big problem with Google firing him either. I don't think anyone has an inviolable "right" to be employed at a company like Google, and he did cause a kerfuffle. It may be partly Google's fault that he misunderstood where the red lines were though. Bottom line is he became more of a liability than an asset. There's a reason why the smart thing to do at your place of employment is to leave your own personal politics at the front door and don't try to evangelize your coworkers.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:10 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This is what happens when you live in a country where employees have virtually no rights.

Lots of protections from government.

Very few from one's employer.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:42 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Can you link to somebody saying that these people (Nazis, KKK) shouldn't be fired?

I'll do it. Depends on the job, and also the way they conduct themselves at work, but should a guy not be allowed to run a drill press because he hates Jews? I don't see the connection, as long as he keeps his mouth shut about it and does his job. If he goes off on racist rants that could offend coworkers, that makes him a liability. If he is very high profile out of work, and has interactions with customers, that makes him a liability. Employers shouldn't be expected to tolerate anything that brings profits down, which would be the case for any employee that disrupts the workplace or makes customers uncomfortable, but if you somehow discover that some dude in the shipping department was spotted at a white supremacist rally, it shouldn't be something that automatically gets someone fired.

And we're talking about what they ought to do, as opposed to what they are legally required to do. Our at will employment situations, where workers have pretty much no right to stay employed, causes some uncomfortable situations, but for the most part, it works, and in the long run it even works better for most people who will spend their lives as employees, never as business owners or managers.

It's a slippery slope problem. Where does it stop? If a guy does his job, he ought to be able to keep his job, regardless of what he does in his spare time. Once you go down the path of trying to police what employees do when they aren't at work, you just create a whole host of problems.

As for this woman and flipping off a motorcade, she shouldn't have been fired for it.

The thing is, we don't know whether or not she actually was fired for that, or if it was just an excuse, the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. This woman decided that her profile picture, the thing she wanted the world to see about her when they looked her up on Facebook, was herself making an obscene gesture in public. I can't judge what she's like from that, but I would be willing to say that an awful lot of people who chose that sort of pic for their profile would be outspoken and abrasive, which might not be desirable traits, and might affect their work environment. We really don't know what else might be going on with her work.
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Old 8th November 2017, 06:28 AM   #205
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Woman Fired For Flipping Off Trumps Motorcade Receives 453,673 Job Offers
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Old 8th November 2017, 06:43 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'll do it. Depends on the job, and also the way they conduct themselves at work, but should a guy not be allowed to run a drill press because he hates Jews? I don't see the connection, as long as he keeps his mouth shut about it and does his job. If he goes off on racist rants that could offend coworkers, that makes him a liability. If he is very high profile out of work, and has interactions with customers, that makes him a liability. Employers shouldn't be expected to tolerate anything that brings profits down, which would be the case for any employee that disrupts the workplace or makes customers uncomfortable, but if you somehow discover that some dude in the shipping department was spotted at a white supremacist rally, it shouldn't be something that automatically gets someone fired.
Why ever not?
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
...snip...
The thing is, we don't know whether or not she actually was fired for that, or if it was just an excuse, the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. This woman decided that her profile picture, the thing she wanted the world to see about her when they looked her up on Facebook, was herself making an obscene gesture in public. I can't judge what she's like from that, but I would be willing to say that an awful lot of people who chose that sort of pic for their profile would be outspoken and abrasive, which might not be desirable traits, and might affect their work environment. We really don't know what else might be going on with her work.
"Obscene"? - (of the portrayal or description of sexual matters) offensive or disgusting by accepted standards of morality and decency (Google Dictionary)

In 2017?
Really?
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Old 8th November 2017, 06:49 AM   #207
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Beautiful finger! Best finger ever. Need to fight this other finger!
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Old 8th November 2017, 06:52 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This is what happens when you live in a country where employees have virtually no rights.

This is what happens in a country where all people have rights, including the right to not have to associate with those who harm your business by pissing off half the country.

In practice, some places have laws protecting political expression by employees, and others do not. If you don't like it, agitate for change. That's also a wonderful quality of such a country.
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Old 8th November 2017, 06:57 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Beautiful finger! Best finger ever. Need to fight this other finger!
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Nba7CB0Oo...ump%2Bhand.jpg
Now that is a obscene gesture, if you are from Brazil, Greece, or Turkey....
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Old 8th November 2017, 07:14 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
This is what happens in a country where all people have rights, including the right to not have to associate with those who harm your business by pissing off half the country.

In practice, some places have laws protecting political expression by employees, and others do not. If you don't like it, agitate for change. That's also a wonderful quality of such a country.
one thumb for you!
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Old 8th November 2017, 07:33 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
one thumb for you!
Another highly offensive gesture, if you're from the Middle East, West Africa, or South America.
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Old 8th November 2017, 08:50 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You'd think. But in reality... Seriously, a lot of this stuff is based on the myth that Obama the shining sun king had ushered in a new age of wonders. When all he'd really done is signed a few easily reversible executive orders and talk up his legacy. So naturally Trump must be the sith emperor himself, laying waste to the nations of the earth. When all he's really done is rescind a few executive orders, sign a few others, and talk up his legacy.
How many Nobel Peace Prizes does Trump have? ZING!
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:21 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I don't think that that employee, James Damore, was the same as Nazis or the KKK, but I also don't have a big problem with Google firing him either. I don't think anyone has an inviolable "right" to be employed at a company like Google, and he did cause a kerfuffle. It may be partly Google's fault that he misunderstood where the red lines were though. Bottom line is he became more of a liability than an asset. There's a reason why the smart thing to do at your place of employment is to leave your own personal politics at the front door and don't try to evangelize your coworkers.
I absolutely agree with the highlighted part. But Briskman's action was not at her work and was completely unrelated to her job. Her action was performed in her capacity as a private citizen and she made no effort to directly link it to her position in the company or her place of employment. She was not the head or owner of the company and not part of the official public "brand" or image of the company. So anyone seeking to hurt her company because of her action were seeking to punish the company for daring to employ an individual who was anti-Trump. If that was the basis of the company firing her I would have hoped they were made of sterner stuff! What moral cowards to not defend the moral right of an employee, a colleague, to express her political views as a private citizen!

If we really believe that a company can morally fire Briskman then a company can morally fire any or all of their employees who are anti-Trump. And another company can morally fire any or all of their employees who are pro-Trump. Again- I am not questioning the legality- it is probably legal in most situations (IMO a powerful argument for stronger unions and stronger employee protection laws). I am questioning the morality of such actions, and if this is the type of country, of civilization in which we wish to live?

Many of the members on this very Forum have expressed a variety of political and social views that probably go against the beliefs of their employers. Is this okay only as long as we are anonymous? What if an employer can puzzle out the identity of an individual here- can they then be fired for their views? What is the limit of the all-powerful "right" of employers to fire employees for their political views? What if I told my friend over dinner that I hate Trump and he communicates that to my employer? What if I tell my wife, who tells her friend, who tells the husband of my employer? Would it be legitimate to fire me then? What if it were you? If so is this really freedom?

It is not fair to say that allowing "common people" to punish those with counter viewpoints is part of freedom. It is not. Totalitarian countries suppress freedom not only through the military, police and laws. They rely on those in society as a whole to squash the unwanted viewpoints- to fire those who oppose the State, to deny them housing and food, to belittle them and their families, and to make them so frightened that they will not speak out. A truly free society allows people to present their points of view in reasonable ways and to be free of unreasonable punishment for doing so.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:23 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
This is what happens in a country where all people have rights, including the right to not have to associate with those who harm your business by pissing off half the country.

In practice, some places have laws protecting political expression by employees, and others do not. If you don't like it, agitate for change. That's also a wonderful quality of such a country.
I am. One part of my approach is to highlight an injustice such as this one when and where I can. Such as here.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:27 AM   #215
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One need only watch popular TV, attend a concert, or even visit an elementary schoolyard to realize that the widespread uses of true "obscenity" rampant in our culture have reduced the middle finger gesture to a level approximately equal to that of using the word "darn."
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:36 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Another highly offensive gesture, if you're from the Middle East, West Africa, or South America.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:27 AM   #217
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Wait.

Was she fired for giving Trump the finger?

Or was she fired for making the rude gesture part of her social media profile, contrary to her employer's public image policy?
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Old 8th November 2017, 11:08 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wait.

Was she fired for giving Trump the finger?

Or was she fired for making the rude gesture part of her social media profile, contrary to her employer's public image policy?
I know what the company's stated excuse was, but I don't believe it and I suspect you don't either. How many people would be unemployed if they were fired for posting slightly rude statements or gestures on their social media? A middle finger is hardly a particularly offensive gesture now-a-days!
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Old 8th November 2017, 11:24 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wait.

Was she fired for giving Trump the finger?

Or was she fired for making the rude gesture part of her social media profile, contrary to her employer's public image policy?
Yes.

I'd guess that she was fired mainly because the danged thing went viral, which wouldn't have happened if she was flipping off some random *******.
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Old 8th November 2017, 12:38 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You'd think. But in reality... Seriously, a lot of this stuff is based on the myth that Obama the shining sun king had ushered in a new age of wonders. When all he'd really done is signed a few easily reversible executive orders and talk up his legacy. So naturally Trump must be the sith emperor himself, laying waste to the nations of the earth. When all he's really done is rescind a few executive orders, sign a few others, and talk up his legacy.

Go ahead: Make a serious criticism of Trump in your own words. It would be a pleasant change of pace.
Trump has certainly made many statements about what we wants to happen, but has not been very effective in getting his agenda across. While being ineffectual is a boon to his opponents, it's rare to see it as an argument in his favor.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:04 PM   #221
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I'd never heard of the incident, that's why I didn't start a thread. Since nobody provided a link:

http://heavy.com/news/2017/11/juli-b...omment-page-1/

I don't like the idea of employers firing people for what they do on their own time. However if she signed a contract then she's responsible for making sure she doesn't violate it.

If someone thinks such a contract violates their rights then they shouldn't sign it. I wouldn't. If it does violate their rights it isn't a valid contract and can be disputed.

I mean I'm sure the pay and job sounded great, and even the contract was fine, until it wasn't. So she's a hypocrite.

She ran the companies FB site, not sure if her avatar would show up there when she posts. The company was a supporter of the Trump campaign.

She's the idiot who violated her contract. If there were no contract, or if the contract is illegal, then that's different. I don't like the concept overall. Perhaps they can send her to reeducation camp or whatever they called it in the book 1984.

And yes, I think a middle finger is vulgar. You don't see them on regular television, for one. It means "F you" or "F yourself" - kind of vulgar I'd say. I think the idea of "bad words" is silly, but I'm stuck living with you people so...

Last edited by mgidm86; 8th November 2017 at 01:05 PM. Reason: thpelling
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:27 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'd never heard of the incident, that's why I didn't start a thread. Since nobody provided a link:

http://heavy.com/news/2017/11/juli-b...omment-page-1/

I don't like the idea of employers firing people for what they do on their own time. However if she signed a contract then she's responsible for making sure she doesn't violate it.

If someone thinks such a contract violates their rights then they shouldn't sign it. I wouldn't. If it does violate their rights it isn't a valid contract and can be disputed.

I mean I'm sure the pay and job sounded great, and even the contract was fine, until it wasn't. So she's a hypocrite.

She ran the companies FB site, not sure if her avatar would show up there when she posts. The company was a supporter of the Trump campaign.

She's the idiot who violated her contract. If there were no contract, or if the contract is illegal, then that's different. I don't like the concept overall. Perhaps they can send her to reeducation camp or whatever they called it in the book 1984.

And yes, I think a middle finger is vulgar. You don't see them on regular television, for one. It means "F you" or "F yourself" - kind of vulgar I'd say. I think the idea of "bad words" is silly, but I'm stuck living with you people so...
It sounds easy- if you don't like the contract don't take the job (as if jobs are trivial to obtain). If you don't like the contract don't buy the product. If you don't like the contract don't go to that doctor. If you don't like the contract don't fly that airline. Or the other airline. Or any airline, given they all use more or less the same contract. More and more contracts are designed to limit people's rights- the right to sue, the right to speak one's mind, the right to be treated fairly by the company, etc. Often there is no real choice- if you don't like the contract where do you go? Do you really like all the provisions you agreed to when you downloaded Windows or the Mac OS? But I bet you agreed, didn't you, unless you are using Linux. Thus we lose our freedoms not because of the government but because of big and powerful companies and private organizations. Great!

And if I read in a contract "no obscenity on public media" I would hardly think that giving the President the finger would be considered obscenity and lead to my firing. Yes it is impolite, even vulgar, but not obscene as I understand the word. It is probably not even the kind of obscenity the person who wrote the contract had in mind! Come on! I imagine virtually every adult, and many children, have used a middle finger gesture at one time or another. And compare it to the words and discussions that Trump himself have established as appropriate for public discourse! A middle finger is trivial compared to the vulgar (indeed obscene) words and images Trump has used on TV and posted on social media.

I bet that the same gesture can be found on the face book pages of employees who haven't been fired. It is clear to me that the obscenity aspect is only an excuse for the desire for revenge by the pro-Trump company ownership. Do you believe otherwise?

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Old 8th November 2017, 01:37 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It is clear to me that the obscenity aspect is only an excuse for the desire for revenge by the pro-Trump company ownership. Do you believe otherwise?
sounds like the government contractor's desire is to avoid Trump related revenge.

Really simple, actually.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:37 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I know what the company's stated excuse was, but I don't believe it and I suspect you don't either. How many people would be unemployed if they were fired for posting slightly rude statements or gestures on their social media? A middle finger is hardly a particularly offensive gesture now-a-days!
She was part of their marketing and communications team, and the thing went viral. I think that upped the stakes for them considerably. Once the knowledge of her association with the company becomes widespread, they have to think pretty seriously about whether they want to continue that association. I expect that her making the photo her social media profile image was the final straw. It's exactly the kind of marketing and communications misjudgement you'd normally hire professionals to help you avoid. For one of the M&C professionals you hired to actually do it? That has to be a kick in the gut for an employer. It's very much more a career-limiting move for someone in her profession than it would be for someone like me, who's a faceless cog in my employer's machine, and who takes pains to keep a prophylactic distance between my public persona and my private foibles.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:39 PM   #225
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There is a world of difference between Freedom of Speech and Freedom from Consequence.

She has one, but when it comes to employment she faced the other.

Any at-will employee can be fired w/o cause short of specified discriminatory qualifications, and being fired for flipping the bird (doesn't have to be POTUS either) isn't considered discrimination anywhere that I'm aware of.

ETA - I'm not aware of any posts supporting Nazi's that have been fired for their beliefs, so if you've got 'em, post 'em.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:41 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Trump has certainly made many statements about what we wants to happen, but has not been very effective in getting his agenda across. While being ineffectual is a boon to his opponents, it's rare to see it as an argument in his favor.
It is rare, but it's also one of the main arguments I've been making since before the election.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:46 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The real damage is going to be done from his cabinet heads, the people chosen for being antithetical to the function of the department they're heading. You know, like a Secretary of Education who is anti-public education and an anti-environmental activist put in charge of the Environmental Protection Agency.

Also, appointing judges from the ranks of the Federalist Society.
Sometimes the pendulum has to swing the other way for a little bit. As someone who would generally like to see federal agencies do less and not more, I don't begrudge this administration its little roll-backs.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:57 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sometimes the pendulum has to swing the other way for a little bit. As someone who would generally like to see federal agencies do less and not more, I don't begrudge this administration its little roll-backs.
Sometimes, the pendulum should swing.

Are you in favor of rolling back environmental concerns, generally speaking? Do you care about greenhouse gasses? Do you think that there's a serious environmental crisis on the way that we might be able to mitigate through careful regulation?
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:05 PM   #229
Giordano
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sounds like the government contractor's desire is to avoid Trump related revenge.

Really simple, actually.
I didn't want to suggest it but I am glad you were willing. But then isn't the threat of government retaliation against the company actually government-sponsored censorship of freedom of speech?

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Old 8th November 2017, 02:13 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I didn't want to suggest it but I am glad you were willing. But then isn't the threat of government retaliation against the company actually government-sponsored censorship of freedom of speech?
I'm not sure how you speculating that they're speculating that the Trump administration might retaliate constitutes government-sponsored censorship. What does "government-sponsored censorship" even mean?

If you could show that the Trump administration was punishing government contractors for speech, or stipulating speech restrictions when awarding contracts, that would be government censorship.

If you could show that this company censored itself or one of its employees to avoid this documented punishment, that would be a chilling effect, but not censorship per se. Not that there's much difference between the two.

If you could show that this company censored itself or one of its employees to meet the stipulated speech restrictions in order to get contracts, that too would be government censorship.

But I don't see that a company establishing and maintaining a specific public image policy, in order to avoid unnecessary image problems when competing for government contracts, constitutes government censorship. Mostly because you're not actually showing any government censorship involved.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:18 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I didn't want to suggest it but I am glad you were willing. But then isn't the threat of government retaliation against the company actually government-sponsored censorship of freedom of speech?
That would assume that there was an actual threat to retaliate by the Government.

It wasn't censorship, nothing the government did prevented her from flipping the bird, nor from posting it wherever she was alleged to have done so.

That being said, imagine all the headaches Reality Winner's employer would have avoided if they had fired her after she started bitching about Trump on the facebooks.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:19 PM   #232
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Yes. Yes. No.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:22 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes. Yes. No.
Forgive me if I suggest that these answers require clarification, but this might not be the right thread.

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Old 8th November 2017, 02:36 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
There is a world of difference between Freedom of Speech and Freedom from Consequence.

She has one, but when it comes to employment she faced the other.


Any at-will employee can be fired w/o cause short of specified discriminatory qualifications, and being fired for flipping the bird (doesn't have to be POTUS either) isn't considered discrimination anywhere that I'm aware of.

ETA - I'm not aware of any posts supporting Nazi's that have been fired for their beliefs, so if you've got 'em, post 'em.
Again- my question was not is it lawful: depending on the locality, state, and union (if any) rules it well may be legal. My question was not even if a company has, in general, a moral right to fire an employee for gross despicable behavior outside of work (say advocating violence or child molestation). Or if it was discrimination (I never brought up discrimination and I don't see what you mean by it in this context). My question is if the firing moral in this particular case: as I see it, by no means.

As to freedom of speech not meaning freedom from repercussions: in fact true freedom of speech in a society requires that reasonable speech is free from unreasonable repercussions. Although the First Amendment is meant to protect speech from government punishment, that it is just a beginning, not an end if one wants to create and live in a truly free society. It is nice to know that if I speak out against Trump I will not be jailed, but would I really be free to express this reasonable opinion if, as a result, I will be fired from my job, kicked out of my apartment, have the local supermarket and shops refuse to deal with me, have my children made laughing stocks at school, and have people yell insults at me as I walk down the street? And not surprisingly, these are the very tactics that totalitarian regimes use in addition to threat of jail; of the two approaches I suspect the former is the more powerful incentive to force people to keep quiet and shut up.

As I stated before- I have not yet been able to look up the Charlottesville thread to search for posts relevant to firing Nazis from their jobs. I will at some point. Interestingly I don't really have to look that far: Meadmaker's post in the current thread does suggest circumstances where he would be uncomfortable with firing someone just because they are a Nazi. And to tell the truth I think I agree with him and I find his post very thoughtful. But he was not among the posters who I suspected were insincere in their claims about protecting the freedom of speech of Nazis and the KKK, so I will search to see what I can find in the archives.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:36 PM   #235
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Dude, it's not even the right forum. But I forgive you.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:47 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Again- my question was not is it lawful: depending on the locality, state, and union (if any) rules it well may be legal. My question was not even if a company has, in general, a moral right to fire an employee for gross despicable behavior outside of work (say advocating violence or child molestation). Or if it was discrimination (I never brought up discrimination and I don't see what you mean by it in this context). My question is if the firing moral in this particular case: as I see it, by no means.

As to freedom of speech not meaning freedom from repercussions: in fact true freedom of speech in a society requires that reasonable speech is free from unreasonable repercussions. Although the First Amendment is meant to protect speech from government punishment, that it is just a beginning, not an end if one wants to create and live in a truly free society. It is nice to know that if I speak out against Trump I will not be jailed, but would I really be free to express this reasonable opinion if, as a result, I will be fired from my job, kicked out of my apartment, have the local supermarket and shops refuse to deal with me, have my children made laughing stocks at school, and have people yell insults at me as I walk down the street? And not surprisingly, these are the very tactics that totalitarian regimes use in addition to threat of jail; of the two approaches I suspect the former is the more powerful incentive to force people to keep quiet and shut up.

As I stated before- I have not yet been able to look up the Charlottesville thread to search for posts relevant to firing Nazis from their jobs. I will at some point. Interestingly I don't really have to look that far: Meadmaker's post in the current thread does suggest circumstances where he would be uncomfortable with firing someone just because they are a Nazi. And to tell the truth I think I agree with him and I find his post very thoughtful. But he was not among the posters who I suspected were insincere in their claims about protecting the freedom of speech of Nazis and the KKK, so I will search to see what I can find in the archives.
well, if one of our more junior employees was talking **** about one of our bigger clients on their goddamn facebook, I would not hesitate to send them packing. That is exactly why we have a social media policy.

By the way? Posting about members who you believe were "insincere" in their claims in other threads is likely to result in a situation where one is not "free from repercussions." Savvy?
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:08 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That would assume that there was an actual threat to retaliate by the Government.

It wasn't censorship, nothing the government did prevented her from flipping the bird, nor from posting it wherever she was alleged to have done so.

That being said, imagine all the headaches Reality Winner's employer would have avoided if they had fired her after she started bitching about Trump on the facebooks.
As you know threats take many forms, both overt and more subtle. Which is why I was hesitant to bring this aspect up in this thread- it can be complicated to prove. But I do agree with you that, as you stated in your post, an implied threat existed and that contributed to why the company fired her.

Threats don't have to be stated in so many words to be real threats. Isn't that notion the basis of the typical dialog in TV shows about organized crime (person in a ill fitting suit comes into your office, looks at your family photo, and says, "Great kids you've got there. And so healthy looking... Have you considered a business deal with my company")? If someone approaches you on the street with a gun and gestures to your wallet he doesn't have to also say, "Your money or your life" for this to be considered a real threat. He might argue that he was only showing off his gun for your approval, but not many people would believe him. You observed that Trump's prior actions could easily be interpreted by the company as indicative of possible "punishment" if they didn't fire the employee. If a reasonable person such as yourself picked up on the existence of the threat then indeed it was a real threat.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:18 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
As you know threats take many forms, both overt and more subtle. Which is why I was hesitant to bring this aspect up in this thread- it can be complicated to prove. But I do agree with you that, as you stated in your post, an implied threat existed and that contributed to why the company fired her.

Threats don't have to be stated in so many words to be real threats. Isn't that notion the basis of the typical dialog in TV shows about organized crime (person in a ill fitting suit comes into your office, looks at your family photo, and says, "Great kids you've got there. And so healthy looking... Have you considered a business deal with my company")? If someone approaches you on the street with a gun and gestures to your wallet he doesn't have to also say, "Your money or your life" for this to be considered a real threat. He might argue that he was only showing off his gun for your approval, but not many people would believe him. You observed that Trump's prior actions could easily be interpreted by the company as indicative of possible "punishment" if they didn't fire the employee. If a reasonable person such as yourself picked up on the existence of the threat then indeed it was a real threat.
Ugh those hypothetical are terrible.... on so many levels....

Try this one: employee posts negative thing on social media about client, company finds out about it, immediately launches her into the sun. Client does not threaten, does not in fact know about it.

You still think the client threatened the Company? Answer: No.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:22 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, if one of our more junior employees was talking **** about one of our bigger clients on their goddamn facebook, I would not hesitate to send them packing. That is exactly why we have a social media policy.

By the way? Posting about members who you believe were "insincere" in their claims in other threads is likely to result in a situation where one is not "free from repercussions." Savvy?
Gee- am I required to believe that all posters on this forum are always sincere when they post? Or if I am allowed to believe that privately in my heart of hearts (nice of the forum to permit it)- am I prohibited from questioning it in my public posts? Well I don't believe that all posters in the forum are always sincere in their posted statements. In fact, to further shock you, I believe that there are trolls on this very forum! But I also believe that I am free to state these views here as long as I do not identify individuals. Which I never have and will not do. Ironically given the topic we are discussing one might see your post to be meant as a threat, but fortunately, given it is not based on the actual rules, I didn't take it as such.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:25 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dude, it's not even the right forum. But I forgive you.
An answer is an answer. After dealing at length with Kumar in another thread (who seems incapable of either simple answers or of coherent English) it's refreshing to see a succinct answer even if I don't like it.
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