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Tags hurricanes , natural disasters , Puerto Rico incidents

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Old 25th September 2017, 05:04 PM   #1
Meadmaker
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The Puerto Rico Thread

Hurricane Maria has left Puerto Rico in a complete mess.

According to an article I read, Puerto Rico has four power plants. Two of them are functional, but the transmission lines that take the power out of the plant are down. Two others suffered water damage and are non functional.

They have at least one hydropower dam.....that's the one you have probably seen news stories about. It hasn't collapsed yet, but they are still uncertain.

As best I can tell from the news, it has been five days, and literally no one is receiving electric power from the grid. It's all from generators, and fuel is scarce. 3.5 million people cannot live on an island of that size without electricity. This is a catastrophe of at least Katrina proportions, and probably worse.

As of today, there is no word yet on whether or not they stood during any playing of the national anthem.
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Old 25th September 2017, 05:21 PM   #2
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I'll start the countdown: # of times Trump mentions Puerto Rico.

Last Tweet mention was on the 20th.
Quote:
Governor @RicardoRossello-
We are with you and the people of Puerto Rico. Stay safe! #PRStrong
On the 22nd he supposedly spoke with governors of Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
Quote:
Trump said earlier Thursday that Puerto Rico was "absolutely obliterated" and the Virgin Islands were "flattened" by recent hurricanes Irma and Maria.

The entire island of Puerto Rico was left without power after Maria knocked out its already weakened electrical grid.

Trump said FEMA and other emergency responders are helping both U.S. territories begin the recovery process.

He says he'll visit Puerto Rico.
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Old 25th September 2017, 05:28 PM   #3
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They have Spanish names, and are therefore rapists and murderers. And some, I suppose, are good people. #AmericaFirst!
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Old 25th September 2017, 05:43 PM   #4
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Yeah, some of us were needling Cheeto Benito to look into what supplies were being sent to Puerto Rico. I kinda closed Twitter for a bit out of..angerpression?

Sounds like they're about...90% without power.

Gov. Andrew Cuomo of New York visited - here's a link to what he said. You can let the autoplay (I know) keep going after it seems to stop. I thought Sen. Marco Rubio was going to fly in as well, but I've been away from news for a bit. Good news is it seems like they're getting some help. Bad news is, not nearly enough.

Even at the airport down there, sounded like chaos - supply planes being flown in, but little real coordination, Air Control out. And those are the tourists. Plus, likely quite a few more looking to get out.

The big problem near that dam, as far as I can tell, is that they have one AM station left on the island that cuts in and out, and no other way to tell those nearby to evacuate.

I'm an electrical engineer, not civil, but my guess is that, for the most vulnerable people, the more immediate need may not be food, but rather clean water (with cooling and medicine also being vital). Please, do not hold me to that, ever. But in any case, this is likely a good place to send in the US Navy.


Hopefully, now that Maria's starting to move up the coast, they can start moving in full force. I hope the folks on the ground there are getting info out ASAP, and that the Joint Chiefs are prepared to put together a serious plan to aid as many people as possible.
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Old 25th September 2017, 05:58 PM   #5
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The amount of supplies that can be airlifted is dwarfed by what can be delivered by ship. But are any harbor facilities sufficiently intact to allow this? And then of course one needs roads to distribute those supplies.

This is really a case where the military has the expertise and equipment to help. They need to be assigned this task and fully supported by the rest of the USA government ASAP.
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Old 25th September 2017, 06:13 PM   #6
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"It's Trump's Katrina!"

a best-case scenario.
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Old 25th September 2017, 06:15 PM   #7
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This Thread is a disaster.
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Old 25th September 2017, 06:18 PM   #8
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I work for the U.S. Forest Service. We were told a few days ago that now that the Western U.S. is finally getting some cooler and wetter weather, the wildland fire situation is getting down to a reasonable level.

This means some fire crews and incident management teams can now be shifted from fires to hurricane relief.

It's not a huge thing, but at least there is some good strong, organized grunt labor moving in. They can clear brush and debris from roads, ditches, power lines and other infrastructure. They can set up and operate helicopter bases. They can camp out if no shelter is available. The incident management teams are probably more helpful. They can coordinate a wide range of emergency responses by police, fire, rescue, and even national guard. I know some of the fire crews communicate in Spanish, and I think at least one of the Incident Management teams can as well.

Still, that's just short term. Puerto Rico is going to need months, or a year or more just to get basic infrastructure (water, sewer, and electricity) going - That will include temporary fixes.

It's going to take years or decades of heavy investment to get everything back to pre-hurricane conditions. I don't know when we'll ever get politicians supportive of that into power.

The comment about aircraft not being able to match ships is dead on, even before one factors in how idiotic we can be about what to carry on planes. The U.S. made a show of helping Mexico after the recent earthquake by flying in a few cargo planes mostly loaded with bottled water. I can't imagine a more inefficient use of aircraft. Not a nice portable water purification plant, just a bunch of pallets of bottled water - for one of the largest cities in the world. I figure they probably had about one pint for every two or three hundred people.

Last edited by crescent; 25th September 2017 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 25th September 2017, 09:12 PM   #9
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The pictures speak for themselves

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...y-cell-service

eta: dunno what happened to the pictures that were at that link.

More pics here

https://www.vox.com/science-and-heal...ia-puerto-rico
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:40 PM   #10
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Something Trump may have overlooked. Puerto Ricans are of course full Americam citizens. They can move anywhere else in the USA they wish any time they wish, with no visa required. If Puerto Rica remains uninhabitable they will leave the island in high numbers and relocate to any of the 50 States. I hope they will choose the Red states that they can flip to Blue.

Donald- think about all those Spanish speakers coming to live, work, and vote (at least once they are here long enough to establish local residency). Perhaps your own self interest, if not humanitarian considerations, would justify ramping up rebuilding efforts?
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:47 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The amount of supplies that can be airlifted is dwarfed by what can be delivered by ship. But are any harbor facilities sufficiently intact to allow this? And then of course one needs roads to distribute those supplies.
The US navy has 9 amphibious assault ships that can load and airlift an entire Marine battalion if they have to, plus 10 amphibious transport docks which can operate Ospreys and land amphibious units which can be, if necessary, loaded with stuff other than military vechiles. They should have enough lifting capacity between them to significantly ease the problems on the island. Marine engineers should be able to build a few temporary ports within 48 hours if necessary.

As far as I know Nimitz-class carriers are equipped to function as movable power plants if the need arises, they did it during the Indian ocean tsunami IIRC. US has another 10 of those, I'm sure the navy can spare one for a week.

In short, Trump has all the tools necessary to truly make a difference in Puerto Rico and no excuse not to help out. It's a US territory FFS, not even a foreign country.

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Old 26th September 2017, 12:49 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Something Trump may have overlooked. Puerto Ricans are of course full Americam citizens. They can move anywhere else in the USA they wish any time they wish, with no visa required. If Puerto Rica remains uninhabitable they will leave the island in high numbers and relocate to any of the 50 States. I hope they will choose the Red states that they can flip to Blue.
Texas and Florida.

Florida is obvious, but Trump won Texas by a measly 600,000 votes. Add in two million Puerto Ricans who now hate his guts and Texas is blue come 2020. Someone should tell him that I suppose. Or don't tell him that and see him try to explain how he lost Texas of all places.

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Old 26th September 2017, 12:51 AM   #13
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Just when I think The PDJT can't get any more assholy, he gets assholier. (re: his first tweets about Puerto Rico that they owe a lot of money).
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:56 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
In short, Trump has all the tools necessary to truly make a difference in Puerto Rico and no excuse not to help out. It's a US territory FFS, not even a foreign country.

McHrozni
He does, and IMO it's still a touch early to criticise him too heavily on the grounds that it's not entirely clear what should be being done.

That said, there are probably a number of reasons why President Trump may be inclined to drag his feet:
  • He may not be fully aware of the status of Puerto Rico and the Puerto Ricans. He may think they are just more illegals
  • The sums required to help Puerto Rico are enormous, especially when the existing debt is taken into account. I suspect that the President is unwilling to bail out the Puerto Ricans because it could turn into a money pit
  • Puerto Ricans lean Democrat, so why help them at all
  • Thery're all a bit swarthy, helping them will not endear him to his base.
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:36 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
He does, and IMO it's still a touch early to criticise him too heavily on the grounds that it's not entirely clear what should be being done.

That said, there are probably a number of reasons why President Trump may be inclined to drag his feet:

He may not be fully aware of the status of Puerto Rico and the Puerto Ricans. He may think they are just more illegals
Hehe Yes, possible.

Quote:
The sums required to help Puerto Rico are enormous, especially when the existing debt is taken into account. I suspect that the President is unwilling to bail out the Puerto Ricans because it could turn into a money pit
We aren't talking about their debt problem, but the problems caused by the collapse of infrastructure caused by a category 5 hurricane. I can understand the unwillingness to foot their bills, I even agree with it to a fair extent, but we're talking about a situation where three out of five power plants will be out of commission for months, the other two are also inoperable, clean water is scarce ... it's a humanitarian disaster in the making. US president is supposed to handle these sorts of things regardless of where they happen, but this time it's on American soil.

Quote:
Puerto Ricans lean Democrat, so why help them at all

Thery're all a bit swarthy, helping them will not endear him to his base.
Helping them in a meaningful way to weather this disaster would go a long way towards fixing his image among people who are neither his base nor democrat base. He could be in real trouble in 2020 even if Puerto Rico doesn't turn out to be his Katrina.

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Old 26th September 2017, 02:02 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
We aren't talking about their debt problem, but the problems caused by the collapse of infrastructure caused by a category 5 hurricane. I can understand the unwillingness to foot their bills, I even agree with it to a fair extent, but we're talking about a situation where three out of five power plants will be out of commission for months, the other two are also inoperable, clean water is scarce ... it's a humanitarian disaster in the making. US president is supposed to handle these sorts of things regardless of where they happen, but this time it's on American soil.
Spending any money there may look to President Trump and his supporters as throwing good money after bad.

It may very well be a humanitarian disaster in the making, but it's a humanitarian disaster that isn't apparently in President Trump's interest to do a whole hell of a lot about.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Helping them in a meaningful way to weather this disaster would go a long way towards fixing his image among people who are neither his base nor democrat base. He could be in real trouble in 2020 even if Puerto Rico doesn't turn out to be his Katrina.

McHrozni
The trouble comes if it damages his image among his base. Attracting some support is only a good thing if he doesn't risk support elsewhere. Right now he's likely thinking that he's on a win-win. The only people suffering are those who either can not or will not vote for him in 2020 and meanwhile he's not having to spend money - the GOP loves not spending money on the less wealthy, preferring to save it for rebates for those that need it most - multimillionaires
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Old 26th September 2017, 02:08 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Spending any money there may look to President Trump and his supporters as throwing good money after bad.

It may very well be a humanitarian disaster in the making, but it's a humanitarian disaster that isn't apparently in President Trump's interest to do a whole hell of a lot about.
It is rather short-sighted policy

Quote:
The trouble comes if it damages his image among his base. Attracting some support is only a good thing if he doesn't risk support elsewhere. Right now he's likely thinking that he's on a win-win. The only people suffering are those who either can not or will not vote for him in 2020 and meanwhile he's not having to spend money - the GOP loves not spending money on the less wealthy, preferring to save it for rebates for those that need it most - multimillionaires
His base amounts to about 25% of the country, if that much. Even a marginal increase in voter participation among his opponents, even without a corresponding decrease among his non-base supporters, would spell trouble for him.

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Old 26th September 2017, 03:24 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Just when I think The PDJT can't get any more assholy, he gets assholier. (re: his first tweets about Puerto Rico that they owe a lot of money).
Hey the laws were written to favor the banks instead of those Puerto Rico. They have far less favorable rules than states do. Given how much trump personally ows big banks he is not going to go against their interest, they might call in some of the loans he can't pay back.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:22 AM   #19
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Looking at Katrina, it was incredibly obvious that the governmental response at all levels, especially federal and local, was just a disaster. I could watch the news and see that it was obvious that things ought to be done, but weren't. There were a few thousand people without water and sanitation, a few miles away from places that had it. It was pretty obvious that Brownie was not doing a heckuva job.

For Puerto Rico, it's less obvious to me. I can't look and say, "Get something in there and reconnect those wires" because I don't know exactly what it takes to reconnect a high tension line located on an island. Also, I find the news coverage isn't very good. They are focused on showing people in distress, but not very good at showing what really needs to happen to get them out of distress.

So, I'm not absolutely certain that the governmental response is lacking. It just seems to me that there ought to be a way to get one power plant back on line, and get the electricity to the capital if nowhere else. If it takes six months to get every last village back on line, that seems bad, but maybe understandable or forgivable. The fact that five days in there is no "regular" power flowing seems like a real crisis that demands a response, and it seems like it ought to be possible to make that happen.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:28 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So, I'm not absolutely certain that the governmental response is lacking. It just seems to me that there ought to be a way to get one power plant back on line, and get the electricity to the capital if nowhere else. If it takes six months to get every last village back on line, that seems bad, but maybe understandable or forgivable. The fact that five days in there is no "regular" power flowing seems like a real crisis that demands a response, and it seems like it ought to be possible to make that happen.
It's not just possible, it's been done half way around the world 12 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operat...ied_Assistance
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=16477

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Old 26th September 2017, 10:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Yeah, some of us were needling Cheeto Benito to look into what supplies were being sent to Puerto Rico. I kinda closed Twitter for a bit out of..angerpression?

Sounds like they're about...90% without power.

Gov. Andrew Cuomo of New York visited - here's a link to what he said. You can let the autoplay (I know) keep going after it seems to stop. I thought Sen. Marco Rubio was going to fly in as well, but I've been away from news for a bit. Good news is it seems like they're getting some help. Bad news is, not nearly enough.

Even at the airport down there, sounded like chaos - supply planes being flown in, but little real coordination, Air Control out. And those are the tourists. Plus, likely quite a few more looking to get out.

The big problem near that dam, as far as I can tell, is that they have one AM station left on the island that cuts in and out, and no other way to tell those nearby to evacuate.

I'm an electrical engineer, not civil, but my guess is that, for the most vulnerable people, the more immediate need may not be food, but rather clean water (with cooling and medicine also being vital). Please, do not hold me to that, ever. But in any case, this is likely a good place to send in the US Navy.


Hopefully, now that Maria's starting to move up the coast, they can start moving in full force. I hope the folks on the ground there are getting info out ASAP, and that the Joint Chiefs are prepared to put together a serious plan to aid as many people as possible.
And fuel. Diesel for generators to fire up the hospital back-up systems.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:24 PM   #22
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Hmm, here's a thought: Donald Trump is born and bred New Yorker. The idea that he doesn't understand, or get, Puerto Rico and Puerto Ricans puzzles me. (Doesn't he have some hotels there?) Then again, maybe they are beneath his gaze. Dunno. While the either or on all that may not stop him from being a (rule 10) since he's, ya know, from New York, the Latino card some of you are playing utterly lacks context.
Let's give this 48 more hours and see.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
And fuel. Diesel for generators to fire up the hospital back-up systems.
That would certainly help, as well. I endorse your statement.
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:30 PM   #24
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How bad is it in Puerto Rico?
Quote:
After Hurricane Maria clobbered Puerto Rico midweek, the U.S. military announced Saturday that it plans to relocate its foreign disaster relief task force based there to other islands in the Caribbean.
Even our disaster relief experts are bailing out. Gotta be able to take care of St. Martins.

Of course, little things like this will make a big difference.
Quote:
After World War I, America was worried about German U-boats, which had sunk nearly 5,000 ships during the war. Congress enacted the Merchant Marine Act of 1920, a.k.a. the Jones Act, to ensure that the country maintained a shipbuilding industry and seafaring labor force. Section 27 of this law decreed that only American ships could carry goods and passengers from one United States port to another. In addition, every ship must be built, crewed and owned by American citizens.
Almost a century later, there are no U-boats lurking off the coast of Puerto Rico. The Jones Act has outlived its original intent, yet it is strangling the island’s economy.

Not only has it outlived it's original intent. It's original intent has been dead for a long time. The U.S. merchant fleet is a tiny fraction of what it was in it's heyday, and has been for decades. Congress has shown no sign of caring about that for at least that long.


Continuing;


Quote:
Under the law, any foreign registry vessel that enters Puerto Rico must pay punitive tariffs, fees and taxes, which are passed on to the Puerto Rican consumer.


The foreign vessel has one other option: It can reroute to Jacksonville, Fla., where all the goods will be transferred to an American vessel, then shipped to Puerto Rico where — again — all the rerouting costs are passed through to the consumer.
Thanks to the law, the price of goods from the United States mainland is at least double that in neighboring islands, including the United States Virgin Islands,
...
A 2012 report by two University of Puerto Rico economists found that the Jones Act caused a $17 billion loss to the island’s economy from 1990 through 2010. Other studies have estimated the Jones Act’s damage to Puerto Rico, Hawaii and Alaska to be $2.8 billion to $9.8 billion per year. According to all these reports, if the Jones Act did not exist, then neither would the public debt of Puerto Rico.

So they get to pay extra for the stuff they can get.

Trump has this under control.

As of yesterday;
Quote:
The Trump administration says it is not planning to waive federal restrictions on foreign ships’ transportation of cargo to Puerto Rico and other areas affected by Hurricane Maria, as it did following hurricanes Harvey and Irma.
A spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security says officials believe there is sufficient capacity of U.S.-flagged vessels to move goods to Puerto Rico. Spokesman David Lapan said most of the humanitarian shipments to Puerto Rico will be through barges, which make up a significant portion of the U.S.-flagged cargo fleet.
DHS waived Jones Act restrictions during Harvey and Irma in order to move oil more quickly to the East Coast and make up for the loss of pipelines.
Making sure that people who hadn't suffered any damage from hurricanes don't have to pay too much for their fuel is important.


The people without anything left at all in Puerto Rico ... not so much. Not if it means cutting into someone's profit margins
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:46 AM   #25
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Someone else started another thread, and I already posted in that one, but I'll put it here, too.

It seems to me that someone in the White House, with heavy involvement of the president himself, ought to be asking, "What will it take to get one power plant up and running, and get electricity delivered to one major hospital in San Juan?" And then promise the airlift capabilities of an airborne division to transport whatever people and heavy equipment they need to get there, and I might add whatever construction crews are necessary to make that happen.

That's not an ordinary situation, or an ordinary response.

If they could establish that one power line, it would give them an operational base that is normal, and would aid all the other hundreds of workers trying to do the more mundane work of distributing food, water, and gasoline.
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Old 27th September 2017, 09:45 AM   #26
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I read an unsupported comment that even if the Jones act were waived (as has been done before), there are currently no port facilities to deal with the shipping. That's still not a reason to avoid waiving the rule, as port facilities, whether existing or brought in, will be coming.
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:23 PM   #27
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I heard a piece on NPR this evening. No hospitals in Puerto Rico are connected to the grid. Many have closed. The ones that are open are running on backup generators. Virtually no doctors offices or clinics are open.

As best I can tell from news articles, there are very few places with running water. If that's accurate, that means three million people can't flush their toilets. That's a big problem.

I know we aren't supposed to politicize things. Seriously. It's stupid to look at every situation that arises and have the first thing in your head be "How does this affect the president?" However, in this case, it's fair. If news reports are to be believed, what is happening in Puerto Rico is a true crisis, and one that cannot be solved by ordinary measures. FEMA can send hundreds of people, but those people are laptop jockeys and haulers. They have rules, and regulations, and procedures.

What Puerto Rico needs is someone who can say, "We need a construction crane on a hilltop 20 miles Southeast of San Juan. If you can get it to San Juan, we'll have the road built by the time you get there. And keep track of expenses and we'll send you a check." They need someone to cut through regular order, throw the rules out the window if need be, and move Heaven and Earth to get the job done, drawing on the best military and civilian assets available to get the job done.

Only the president can make that happen, which means that if it isn't happening, it's the president's fault.

If things are half as bad as the sketchy news reports suggest, he really needs to get on the stick. This could be bad.
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:27 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The US navy has 9 amphibious assault ships that can load and airlift an entire Marine battalion if they have to, plus 10 amphibious transport docks which can operate Ospreys and land amphibious units which can be, if necessary, loaded with stuff other than military vechiles. They should have enough lifting capacity between them to significantly ease the problems on the island. Marine engineers should be able to build a few temporary ports within 48 hours if necessary.

As far as I know Nimitz-class carriers are equipped to function as movable power plants if the need arises, they did it during the Indian ocean tsunami IIRC. US has another 10 of those, I'm sure the navy can spare one for a week.

In short, Trump has all the tools necessary to truly make a difference in Puerto Rico and no excuse not to help out. It's a US territory FFS, not even a foreign country.

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I wonder if it's worth it to sink the money into making a couple or four "Disaster Relief Ships." Converted oil tankers (like the Mercy Class Hospital Ships) that have a hospital, power generator, fresh water generation facilities, and basic supplies humanitarian supplies.
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:53 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
three million people can't flush their toilets.
I wonder how many poor and/or rural Puerto Ricans don't have flush toilets.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder how many poor and/or rural Puerto Ricans don't have flush toilets.
I'm guessing very close to zero.

The world isn't like the one we grew up in. Poor countries aren't filled with mud huts and grass roofs. No matter how poor they are, you can't have a city of 2 million people (San Juan), without flush toilets.

And I was very, very, surprised when I read about the Puerto Rican economy. on Wikipedia. The mainstay of their economy is....drum roll please......pharmaceutical manufacturing.

Yes, there are a lot of poor people, and the drug companies are there for tax breaks and cheap labor, but this isn't Gilligan's Island. It's a modern world. Or at least, it was until last week.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:03 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder how many poor and/or rural Puerto Ricans don't have flush toilets.
This is Puerto Rico, not Haiti.

I get that it's a Caribbean Island full of Brown People but that doesn't make it a third world shanty town.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:09 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder how many poor and/or rural Puerto Ricans don't have flush toilets.
It's not Somalia Haiti*.

Hard to find exact data, there have been EPA efforts to get the sewer system on a better footing. I'm sure a lot of people have septic systems, but I doubt you'd see many outhouses except in the most rural areas.

The Loney Planet Travel Guide says:
Quote:
Toilets in hotels and restaurants are normally of a good standard.
Toilets are sit-down, just like they are in mainland US.
Public toilets are none too common.

*Joe had a better example.

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Old 27th September 2017, 04:32 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder how many poor and/or rural Puerto Ricans don't have flush toilets.

This is a perfect example of the sort of uninformed, scornful, and dismissive attitude being taken toward the disaster in Puerto Rico.

'It's just a bunch of brown people. How much worse off can they be?'

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Old 27th September 2017, 04:41 PM   #34
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Here's something interesting: FEMA's discussion of the Jones Act.

https://www.fema.gov/hurricane-maria...paign=disaster

Summary: The reason for the waiver of the Jones act following Harvey and Irma was not to get aid in. It was to get oil out. Those hurricanes disrupted pipelines that carried fuel from Texas to the east coast. Absent those pipelines, there was not enough American flagged capacity to supply fuel. In Puerto Rico, there's plenty of ship space to get things in. The limitation is harbor capacity. Extra shipping wouldn't help.

I'm not sure that's the full story, but it's certainly plausible.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:48 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is a perfect example of the sort of uninformed, scornful, and dismissive attitude being taken toward the disaster in Puerto Rico.

'It's just a bunch of brown people. How much worse off can they be?'

WTF? The word "wonder" is in there because I don't know. There is no scorn or dismiss in my question. The mention of "brown people" by you and Joe is totally out of context for my question.

Shame on you!
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
WTF? The word "wonder" is in there because I don't know. There is no scorn or dismiss in my question. The mention of "brown people" by you and Joe is totally out of context for my question.

Shame on you!
Did you "wonder" how many Texans and Floridians didn't have flushing toilets when Irma and Harvey hit?
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:07 PM   #37
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Did you "wonder" how many Texans and Floridians didn't have flushing toilets when Irma and Harvey hit?
That's a non sequitur. My question had no relation to skin color. I never wondered about the mix of flush toilets and hurricane damage until it was mentioned that everybody has one in PR. I wondered if that's actually true.

It's a legitimate question about the universality of indoor plumbing and has nothing to do with racism.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:09 PM   #38
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No it's not.

Puerto Rico is part of the United States. It is not reasonable to question whether it's a third world country or not.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:14 PM   #39
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I didn't ask if PR is third world. I'm curious if some poor or rural don't have plumbing. If true, it doesn't make the place third world.

This persecution of curiosity is ridiculous.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:24 PM   #40
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*Sighs*

According to the CIA World Factbook 99.3% of the population has access to "indoor plumbing / sanitation facilities."

Also they have paved roads and electricity if you're just "wondering" about that as well.
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