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Tags hurricanes , natural disasters , Puerto Rico incidents

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Old 1st October 2017, 12:55 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Exactly. They're patting themselves on the back for rapidly moving large quantities of bottled water and such. The problem is that this is not a textbook situation. Thursday morning, i.e. last Thursday morning, the day after the hurricane, they should have appointed a general to take charge, and started getting heavy equipment into place to get at least a small portion of the grid up and running.
Right, and that General should be focused on getting the major systems connected, not bottled water.

After the hospitals had fuel, Trump could have called up the Wal-mart CEO and said "The US Gov't would like your help. We'll send plenty of fuel and a comm line to any store you need opened and we'll clear the way if your team can truck in all the basic supplies you can manage. We might also need a portion of your warehouse and a FEMA distribution in your parking lot. Deal?"
Instead, FEMA has their own centers at select City Halls. (City Halls don't have supplies waiting at the port and multiple loading bays for large trucks. But that's government for you. Too large to change strategy without 15 committee meetings!)

Then call Home Depot, Walgreens, and other big distributors. Use the people and infrastructure already in place. They know how to do it. They can be paid and it is great PR. FEMA and military then have more manpower to work on the grid or go to more remote areas.

There are wasted opportunities. This looks all too governmental.
A businessman should do better at this one. Maybe he tried it and failed for some reason.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:17 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Oshun? Really? Donald J. Trump has definitely gone local!
Well, praying to the Santería deity of fresh water might be as helpful as appealing to the Donald …
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Old 1st October 2017, 07:13 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
They speak Spanish, and are therefore rapists and murderers. And some, I assume, are good people hombres.

FIFY
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Old 1st October 2017, 08:34 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Right, and that General should be focused on getting the major systems connected, not bottled water.

After the hospitals had fuel, Trump could have called up the Wal-mart CEO and said "The US Gov't would like your help. We'll send plenty of fuel and a comm line to any store you need opened and we'll clear the way if your team can truck in all the basic supplies you can manage. We might also need a portion of your warehouse and a FEMA distribution in your parking lot. Deal?"
Instead, FEMA has their own centers at select City Halls. (City Halls don't have supplies waiting at the port and multiple loading bays for large trucks. But that's government for you. Too large to change strategy without 15 committee meetings!)

Then call Home Depot, Walgreens, and other big distributors. Use the people and infrastructure already in place. They know how to do it. They can be paid and it is great PR. FEMA and military then have more manpower to work on the grid or go to more remote areas.

There are wasted opportunities. This looks all too governmental.
A businessman should do better at this one. Maybe he tried it and failed for some reason.
Without cell towers credit cards are not working. They need the cell towers first.

Otherwise, a public-private partnership sounds innovative.
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Old 1st October 2017, 10:12 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Without cell towers credit cards are not working. They need the cell towers first.

Otherwise, a public-private partnership sounds innovative.
I referred to it as a "comm line" because I really don't know what the military or FEMA does for regular communications in disasters but it must be independent. Maybe satellite? or send it to a receiver on a ship? Cell towers have their own supply chain links that all need power.

Speaking of power, I wonder how long the cellular network (or anything really) could have run if they had Tesla's powerpacks? (for the towers that survived and assuming no working solar panels)
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Old 1st October 2017, 12:55 PM   #126
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Today's DOE report still had 5% as the number of customers who had power, but then noted that more had had power restored, but a new estimate was not yet available.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:30 PM   #127
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The PDJT just dedicated this weekend's golf tournament trophy to the People of Puerto Rico.

Almost as good as sending prayers.
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Old 1st October 2017, 04:21 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
The PDJT just dedicated this weekend's golf tournament trophy to the People of Puerto Rico.

Almost as good as sending prayers.

I'm not sure which is more disgusting, that he did that knowing what an insult it is, or that he didn't know.
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Old 1st October 2017, 05:10 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Today's DOE report still had 5% as the number of customers who had power, but then noted that more had had power restored, but a new estimate was not yet available.
Night time satellite photos show 20% lit up. That was a few days ago.
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Old 1st October 2017, 05:54 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Night time satellite photos show 20% lit up. That was a few days ago.
Does that include individual houses, or just streetlights?
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Old 1st October 2017, 06:18 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Does that include individual houses, or just streetlights?

Or people who still have fuel to keep their generators running?
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Old 1st October 2017, 06:49 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Night time satellite photos show 20% lit up. That was a few days ago.
Better tell the Department of Energy, they still think that as of Thursday, the number of customers lit up was 0%. Now it is more than 5%, but they don't know how many more.


Of course the discrepancy is that the satellite photos would show generator lights, while the DoE figures are based on people receiving power from the grid. The huge number of generators running is the reason everyone is desperate to find fuel.


As best I can tell, the very worst of the crisis is over. Power is coming back. Most places will have running, and probably potable, water within a few days, I would think. It's so hard to tell because, to say it again, the news media is more interested in the human side of the tragedy than the engineering side of things. I would be interested in knowing if one of those pharmaceutical companies has a projected back-to-work day. If there is a working ATM in the capital. What percentage of people have 1) running water for sanitation, 2) drinkable running water? 3) Drinkable after boiling, along with the ability to boil? For those who do not, are they in isolated mountain towns, or in the suburbs of San Juan? How many people did something today for which they will receive a paycheck?

Dr. Sanjay Gupta trying to track down medicine for one clinic makes better TV than some statistics about unfilled prescriptions.

Puerto Rico won't be

Last edited by Meadmaker; 1st October 2017 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 12:19 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Just when I think The PDJT can't get any more assholy, he gets assholier. (re: his first tweets about Puerto Rico that they owe a lot of money).
This mirrors exactly my thoughts. Exactly.

I hope though that the narrative won't be the main story. I want to know much more about the relief effort underway. If disaster management can be shown to be competent/incompetent through a detailed timeline comparing the PR effort vs. Florida and Texas.

It's possible that PR is in such complicated mess that FEMA or whoever really is doing the best it can. Maybe it's just that hard to get things running again.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 01:43 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Without cell towers credit cards are not working. They need the cell towers first.

Otherwise, a public-private partnership sounds innovative.
Why does anyone need to buy any necessary equipment and supplies?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:05 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
So why aren't they a state? (It's been a few years since I was following the internal PR politics, but if that much positive response to this very old issue is what's coming along now, what's the obstacle to becoming number 51? FFS, they are closer to CONUS than Alaska or Hawaii.)
Congress has no desire to add in two democratic senators. They can't make themselves a state congress needs to do it.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:15 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's possible that PR is in such complicated mess that FEMA or whoever really is doing the best it can. Maybe it's just that hard to get things running again.
It is much more complicated than Florida or Texas. It really can't be approached the same way and be successful.

What does FEMA normally do? They pretty much care for homeless people, and write checks. In a normal hurricane, there is an area where some fraction of the people have been left homeless. Within days, though, a fair number of those people have taken up with family, or friends, or they have enough money to drive to someplace where there isn't a sold out hotel. FEMA normally just has to take care of a few thousand people in temporary shelters, and those few thousand people are surrounded by millions of people who have been affected, but not wiped out

After that, what FEMA mostly does is damage assessment and paying claims. They write checks, and they do everything that they do from an area a few miles outside the disaster zone, where they are working in normally functioning hotels and restaurants.

FEMA doesn't normally reconnect utility services. Utility companies do that. The utility companies call in thousands of people from a multistate area, and they get to work. I'm guessing that FEMA might provide some funding for that extra effort, but I don't really know. None of that can happen in Puerto Rico. FEMA just isn't equipped to deal with a situation where millions of people do not have basic services, and the local utility companies were barely able to keep functioning in normal times.

This was not a normal situation, and it did not need a normal response, but bigger.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 2nd October 2017 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:43 AM   #137
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Much truth in this article:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...os-plight.html

(Summary: The media wasn't as interested in Puerto Rico due to disaster fatigue, and less interest in a Carribean island than a real state.)

Although, my own spin would still hit the president harder. The president has the power to turn any issue into front page news. He didn't.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 2nd October 2017 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:45 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Much truth in this article:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...os-plight.html

Although, my own spin would still hit the president harder. The president has the power to turn any issue into front page news. He didn't.
He didn't know about it until it was on fox and friends though. If they made a point of it earlier the president would have known. When you are the presidents main source of information you have a higher duty than just some morning news program, and Fox needs to learn that.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:48 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Much truth in this article:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...os-plight.html

(Summary: The media wasn't as interested in Puerto Rico due to disaster fatigue, and less interest in a Carribean island than a real state.)

Although, my own spin would still hit the president harder. The president has the power to turn any issue into front page news. He didn't.
The result could spell disaster for Trump in a not too unlikely scenario where a million or so Puerto Ricans move to the mainland US as a result of the disasterous state of their island, a combination of bankruptcy and the hurricane.

If half of them move to Texas and half to Florida and they may well be both blue come 2020.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 06:03 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not sure which is more disgusting, that he did that knowing what an insult it is, or that he didn't know.
either way his anusity is heinousity!!!!!
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Old 2nd October 2017, 06:07 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He didn't know about it until it was on fox and friends though. If they made a point of it earlier the president would have known. When you are the presidents main source of information you have a higher duty than just some morning news program, and Fox needs to learn that.
What would it matter????? Fox is lies and more lies, not real news.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 06:09 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
What would it matter????? Fox is lies and more lies, not real news.
They are the main source of information for the president though. How was he supposed to know that anything was happening if the media didn't talk about it?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 07:22 AM   #143
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Now I highly doubt The PDJT will make his planned trip to the island tomorrow.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 07:25 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
This mirrors exactly my thoughts. Exactly.

I hope though that the narrative won't be the main story. I want to know much more about the relief effort underway. If disaster management can be shown to be competent/incompetent through a detailed timeline comparing the PR effort vs. Florida and Texas.

It's possible that PR is in such complicated mess that FEMA or whoever really is doing the best it can. Maybe it's just that hard to get things running again.

It already doesn't seem to be stacking up well vs. Haiti.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:50 PM   #145
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And today they got a better situation report with some numbers. 5.4% of customers are back with power.

The utility company says they should be up to 15%.....in two weeks.

3.4 million people can't live on an island with no electricity. I'm pretty confident that it is possible to do better than what they are doing. It just seems to me that the lack of central power generation is complicating everything else. Electricity makes it possible to do a lot of other things. Generators are all well and good, but sending fuel to so many point locations is complicating everything.

I don't know. Maybe I just don't understand, but it seems to me that the US military, in cooperation with local authorities, ought to be able to move enough trees, and wire, and equipment, and even build bridges if need be, in a few days, enough to get 340,000 people living close together in San Juan out of the darkness. That would be 10% of the population who were leading something vaguely like normal lives. Find one of the major employers and get them back up and running, so that money could flow into the island.

Or, I suppose you could distribute bottled water for the next three months.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:23 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why does anyone need to buy any necessary equipment and supplies?
I was commenting on the public/private partnership post.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:43 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And today they got a better situation report with some numbers. 5.4% of customers are back with power.

The utility company says they should be up to 15%.....in two weeks.

3.4 million people can't live on an island with no electricity. I'm pretty confident that it is possible to do better than what they are doing. It just seems to me that the lack of central power generation is complicating everything else. Electricity makes it possible to do a lot of other things. Generators are all well and good, but sending fuel to so many point locations is complicating everything.

I don't know. Maybe I just don't understand, but it seems to me that the US military, in cooperation with local authorities, ought to be able to move enough trees, and wire, and equipment, and even build bridges if need be, in a few days, enough to get 340,000 people living close together in San Juan out of the darkness. That would be 10% of the population who were leading something vaguely like normal lives. Find one of the major employers and get them back up and running, so that money could flow into the island.

Or, I suppose you could distribute bottled water for the next three months.

Mrs. qg's physical therapist, who comes in twice a week, has a son with family that lives about three miles from San Juan.

Her latest report from him is that they have running water (don't know if potable) but no electricity. He can call her by getting within proximity of a working cell tower some distance away but it is an effort.

They managed to get a generator somehow, but couldn't keep it running long enough to do a load of laundry (bad gas, mebbe).

They operate an AirBnB, and she says they are really missing regular access to the Internet because so many hotels are not up and running, and they can't take advantage of offering housing for relief workers because no one can find them or get in touch with them.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:51 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
the anti-statehood parties called for a boycott of the vote. Turnout was 23%, and about 97% of that was for statehood.
Ah, thanks, was unaware.
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
My theory:
The bottom line is that a modern supply chain doesn't function without electricity. It barely limps.
Yep. It's part of what we used to call "backbone infrastructure" in contingency plans for humanitarian relief. (Military side).
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Her latest report from him is that they have running water (don't know if potable) but no electricity. He can call her by getting within proximity of a working cell tower some distance away but it is an effort.

They operate an AirBnB, and she says they are really missing regular access to the Internet because so many hotels are not up and running, and they can't take advantage of offering housing for relief workers because no one can find them or get in touch with them.
Thanks, interesting report. That small business piece strikes hard.

In the area were Harvey hit, within 20 miles of Rockport, quite a few people have no job to go back to. They are economically displaced as well as dealing with damage to or loos of a home. See also in places like Refugio (Nolan Ryan's home town) and Port Aransas, which relies a lot on the tourist trade.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 09:03 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Ah, thanks, was unaware.
And in the previous vote 54% were for a change in status and if there was a change 63% wanted it to be statehood. So this is at least as strong a statement as the pro brexit vote.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/07/politi...ico/index.html
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Old 3rd October 2017, 09:26 AM   #150
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"Puerto Rico is throwing our budget out of whack."

"You only had what? 15, 16 people die? Texas had a lot more!"

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Old 3rd October 2017, 09:29 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
"Puerto Rico is throwing our budget out of whack."

"You only had what? 15, 16 people die? Texas had a lot more!"

Did no one tell him that Puerto Rico doesn't have the ability to count the loss of life yet? There's no updated information available on it. Also, really classy of him to blame hurricane victims for being hurricane victims.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 09:38 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
"Puerto Rico is throwing our budget out of whack."

"You only had what? 15, 16 people die? Texas had a lot more!"

killing it at being presidential.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 10:23 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
"Puerto Rico is throwing our budget out of whack."

"You only had what? 15, 16 people die? Texas had a lot more!"

I haven't read the news articles yet. Those are real quotes? Really?
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Old 3rd October 2017, 10:28 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I haven't read the news articles yet. Those are real quotes? Really?
It gets worse. And now Oxfam is stepping in to make up for the inadequate response from the government.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/10/02/p...nse/index.html
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Old 3rd October 2017, 10:51 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I haven't read the news articles yet. Those are real quotes? Really?
YES! (as best as I could remember)
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Old 3rd October 2017, 11:06 AM   #156
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"Every death is a horror," Trump said, "but if you look at a real catastrophe like Katrina and you look at the tremendous -- hundreds and hundreds of people that died -- and you look at what happened here with, really, a storm that was just totally overpowering ... no one has ever seen anything like this."

--- Trump.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:57 PM   #157
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Hmmm- storm meets senility. Sorry Puerto Rico- two tragedies.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 01:46 PM   #158
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President Donald Trump has told Puerto Rico officials they should be "proud" they did not lose thousands of lives as in "a real catastrophe like Katrina".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-u...e-like-katrina
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Old 3rd October 2017, 02:52 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Molinaro View Post
"Every death is a horror," Trump said, "but if you look at a real catastrophe like Katrina and you look at the tremendous -- hundreds and hundreds of people that died -- and you look at what happened here with, really, a storm that was just totally overpowering ... no one has ever seen anything like this."

--- Trump.
Seeing the full quote, in context, makes it in some ways better, and some ways worse, than I thought.

It's better because it's not so jaw-droppingly insensitive as it seemed. He wasn't minimizing their problem. He was praising them for doing a good job in the face of an immense challenge. Poor choice of words, perhaps, but still "presidential".

The worse part is that it shows he is still not in touch with the reality of the situation. That death toll report is several days old. Many more have died since then. How do I know? Because in a population of over 3 million people, there are a fair number of vulnerable people. People on respirators, oxygen, insulin, things that just don't appear. Not everyone will have gotten what they need because they didn't have electricity, or they had a generator but no gas for it.

Hospital emergency rooms and trauma centers exist because they save lives. When the emergency room is closed or is inaccessible by road, some people are not going to make it, that would have made it under normal circumstances. People who go to doctor's offices for some little unexplained pain or fever are sometimes whisked to the hospital because it isn't just the flu. That didn't happen somewhere, because the doctor's office was closed. We don't have to speculate on whether or not that happened. In a population that size, we know it will happen. We just don't know how often it happened. Trump, on the other hand, doesn't seem to realize it happened.

I heard Hannity yapping on the radio today. He was whining about the unfair treatment that Mr. President was getting in the media. He emphasized that they did exactly for Maria as they had done for Irma and Harvey. Yes, Sean, they did. That's the problem.


Meanwhile, DoE still lists "at least" 5.4% as the number of people with power. Hannity said 30%. I wonder where he got his numbers. Is it a legitimate number, but includes the number of people on generator power? I'd like to see a source, but that is, once again, where I will fault the media. Hard numbers and real analysis are not their forte. They prefer the human side, focusing on one person's struggles, and of course on any political controversy that arises. It's interesting, but not very informative.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 06:24 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Seeing the full quote, in context, makes it in some ways better, and some ways worse, than I thought.

It's better because it's not so jaw-droppingly insensitive as it seemed. He wasn't minimizing their problem. He was praising them for doing a good job in the face of an immense challenge. Poor choice of words, perhaps, but still "presidential".
No. He was praising HIMSELF for the low death toll.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The worse part is that it shows he is still not in touch with the reality of the situation. That death toll report is several days old. Many more have died since then. How do I know? Because in a population of over 3 million people, there are a fair number of vulnerable people. People on respirators, oxygen, insulin, things that just don't appear. Not everyone will have gotten what they need because they didn't have electricity, or they had a generator but no gas for it.
To be fair to Trump, he was sitting next to the governor, asked him if the number was 17, and the governor said 16.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hospital emergency rooms and trauma centers exist because they save lives. When the emergency room is closed or is inaccessible by road, some people are not going to make it, that would have made it under normal circumstances. People who go to doctor's offices for some little unexplained pain or fever are sometimes whisked to the hospital because it isn't just the flu. That didn't happen somewhere, because the doctor's office was closed. We don't have to speculate on whether or not that happened. In a population that size, we know it will happen. We just don't know how often it happened. Trump, on the other hand, doesn't seem to realize it happened.

I heard Hannity yapping on the radio today. He was whining about the unfair treatment that Mr. President was getting in the media. He emphasized that they did exactly for Maria as they had done for Irma and Harvey. Yes, Sean, they did. That's the problem.
Meanwhile, DoE still lists "at least" 5.4% as the number of people with power. Hannity said 30%. I wonder where he got his numbers.
Same place he gets what he dumps in the toilet each morning.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is it a legitimate number, but includes the number of people on generator power? I'd like to see a source, but that is, once again, where I will fault the media. Hard numbers and real analysis are not their forte. They prefer the human side, focusing on one person's struggles, and of course on any political controversy that arises. It's interesting, but not very informative.
Please don't get me wrong. That was a good post. I'll go nom it, I think.
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