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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:09 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Then he's advocating for ignorance rather than education, which should be the antithesis of rational thought.

I'd say that there's all kinds of things that such stories could tell us about the culture in which they were written; about how the people they were intended for would understand them; about how the people of today understand and relate to them and, indeed, if they do; about the role of myth in society; about the authorship and revision over time of such stories; about what meaning is intended to be conveyed and why with those particular stories told in that particular way; and much more.

You mention a story of baby massacre (which one in particular?). The first place I'd start with that story is in examining the Bible's roots in polytheism and Yahwism and how this ties in to Yahweh being the god of war. I'd then like to look at who authored the story and when and see what can be said about revisions it underwent over time. I'd also look at the various cultures the story was authored and revised in and try to understand what the story is trying to say and why it's saying it the way it is.

That would be where I'd start, were I to actually try and give a thoughtful take on the story. It's not as easy as just saying "lol", but it's certainly far from impossible.
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post


You actually want to do and discuss all that?

Why don't you just flagellate yourself? It's quicker, and won't involve me.
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I know it's easier to argue if you write both sides of the argument yourself, but it would be much better if you addressed the things I have said, rather than making **** up and pretending I said it.
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post


I quoted what you said, and then asked you incredulously if you really wanted to get into all that.

Then I indicated I'm not interested in talking about what you were going on about. If I was, I'd have posted something else, rather than the redneck video.
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Indeed you did. Which demonstrated that you haven't been paying attention to what I've actually said. Hence me asking you to reply to what I said.
Your suggested "thoughtful commentary" on the biblical hogwash amounted to papering over the hogwash with some meandering intellectual sidebars, rather than directly addressing the hogwash.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:16 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Your suggested "thoughtful commentary" on the biblical hogwash amounted to papering over the hogwash with some meandering intellectual sidebars, rather than directly addressing the hogwash.
Really depends on what your goal is...
I you want to have a thoughtful academic discussion about the origins of the Abrahamic faiths, their source material and influence on society through the ages, Squeegee's approach is better.

If you want to get mad at reactionary fundamentalist Christians for justifying their ideas about modern society by cherrypicking the Bible, then neither approach works, but yours might be a little more cathartic.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:09 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its hard to engage at all, let alone "honestly", with someone whose posts are largely fact-free and consist mostly of cynicism, snide remarks and "lolz".
I honestly don't think I've ever heard someone justify making dishonest arguments by blaming the person they're disagreeing with before. You've posted what you've posted. Own it.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:10 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Your suggested "thoughtful commentary" on the biblical hogwash amounted to papering over the hogwash with some meandering intellectual sidebars, rather than directly addressing the hogwash.
That's the spirit.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:17 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Really depends on what your goal is...
I you want to have a thoughtful academic discussion about the origins of the Abrahamic faiths, their source material and influence on society through the ages, Squeegee's approach is better.

If you want to get mad at reactionary fundamentalist Christians for justifying their ideas about modern society by cherrypicking the Bible, then neither approach works, but yours might be a little more cathartic.
(Sigh)

The redneck's trashing of the biblical hogwash is his rebuttal of Burnett and Downey's campaign to have the bible taught in the already failing public schools, thereby hastening the U.S. march down Third World Road.

It's right there in the preamble. The final seconds of the video is the summation.

WTF is wrong with you people? You want to get frog-boiled while you're sitting around gazing at your navels while contemplating the historical significance of hogwash?

I can tell you what the historical significance of hogwash is in one sentence.

It's the reason the pages of human history are nightmares.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:22 AM   #86
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:36 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
(Sigh)
WTF is wrong with you people? You want to get frog-boiled while you're sitting around gazing at your navels while contemplating the historical significance of hogwash?

I can tell you what the historical significance of hogwash is in one sentence.

It's the reason the pages of human history are nightmares.
I live in a mostly secular country that is in little to no danger of being overtaken by theocrats. So I don't share your angry sense of urgency I guess...

Also, I can't think of any example where 'thrashing people's hogwash' resulted in anything else than them closing ranks and dismissing any criticism. YT videos where atheists thrash and mock the Bible are only preaching to the choir.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 06:15 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How amusing. declaim the sky-deity while claiming the sky-dad is real. You might want to think about that.
How amusing. Pretending that pejorative phrases like "sky daddy" are anything other than an infantile insult. You might want to think about that.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 06:29 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I live in a mostly secular country that is in little to no danger of being overtaken by theocrats. So I don't share your angry sense of urgency I guess...
I certainly hope a large third world country of nuclear-armed theocrats will never be a problem to you. As for myself, I hope to have passed over the Great Divide before the proposed journey to third world theocracy is completed.

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Also, I can't think of any example where 'thrashing people's hogwash' resulted in anything else than them closing ranks and dismissing any criticism. YT videos where atheists thrash and mock the Bible are only preaching to the choir.
And I can't think of any time when not trashing their hogwash resulted in anything except them closing ranks and trying to get the hogwash into the public schools.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 06:33 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
How amusing. Pretending that pejorative phrases like "sky daddy" are anything other than an infantile insult. You might want to think about that.
Infantile beliefs deserve infantile descriptions.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:03 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
And I can't think of any time when not trashing their hogwash resulted in anything except them closing ranks and trying to get the hogwash into the public schools.
I would say that lawsuits and constitutional arguments are more effective means of preventing this than a video that isn't going to be viewed by anybody who doesn't already agree with it.

I don't get why people need to frame these kinds of videos as some sort of noble crusade, when they're much more obviously about pointing and laughing at people whose beliefs they consider to be stupid. And if you need to misrepresent what's actually going on, rather than just owning it, then what does that say about what you really think about it?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:06 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Infantile beliefs deserve infantile descriptions.
And how is the world positively changed by such things? Do you think using terms like that is likely to a) make those you disagree with become more entrenched and less likely to engage and thereby change their minds, or b) make those you disagree with become more open to engaging in honest debate and thereby more likely to change their minds?

So the question again becomes - what are you actually trying to accomplish?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:30 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And how is the world positively changed by such things? Do you think using terms like that is likely to a) make those you disagree with become more entrenched and less likely to engage and thereby change their minds, or b) make those you disagree with become more open to engaging in honest debate and thereby more likely to change their minds?

So the question again becomes - what are you actually trying to accomplish?
Personally, I rather enjoy an honest engagement with an honest believer.

That said, I have come to understand that there exists a subset of believers with whom engagement is impossible and even making the attempt is futile.

This subset of dishonest believers are happy to flat out "lie for jebus" and simply care not a whit for truth, reality, science or even common sense.

What is accomplished? Nothing. Because that subset wants nothing to be accomplished and will refuse to allow anything to be accomplished by anyone.

At best, illustrating the absurdity might illuminate the nonsensical rot to lurkers. Maybe.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:35 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Infantile beliefs deserve infantile descriptions.
Ahh, the concession that the the terms used were indeed "infantile descriptions."

I actually prefer when people use "infantile descriptions" because it is clear that not only do they have nothing interesting to say, they would not have the vocabulary necessary to say it in any event.

Self rebutting, not unlike our Redneck Atheist hero who can not string together more than a sentence or two without referring to having intercourse with one's mother.

Scintillating.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:57 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ahh, the concession that the the terms used were indeed "infantile descriptions."

I actually prefer when people use "infantile descriptions" because it is clear that not only do they have nothing interesting to say, they would not have the vocabulary necessary to say it in any event.

Self rebutting, not unlike our Redneck Atheist hero who can not string together more than a sentence or two without referring to having intercourse with one's mother.

Scintillating.
Yea, quite. The style does work well to make a quick point, especially when you, as this dude obviously does, regard the target to be ... in fact ... infantile descriptions. However, I do admit that I find 35 minutes of it just a tad tedious.

Notwithstanding, now you have expressed your contempt for the style, have you any comments on the contents? I expect you will know what it is about, but just in case: The narrator paints a nice picture of the Christian god as a sadistic, violent killer and torturer who leads it's adherents to commit atrocities and who then tortures and kills them in return, all based on Bible texts.

While the Bible can be taken in support of many things, it is certainly a fact that such stories thoroughly permeate it.

How do you suggest that the uninitiated reader interprets such tales?

Hans
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:03 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Yea, quite. The style does work well to make a quick point, especially when you, as this dude obviously does, regard the target to be ... in fact ... infantile descriptions. However, I do admit that I find 35 minutes of it just a tad tedious.

Notwithstanding, now you have expressed your contempt for the style, have you any comments on the contents? I expect you will know what it is about, but just in case: The narrator paints a nice picture of the Christian god as a sadistic, violent killer and torturer who leads it's adherents to commit atrocities and who then tortures and kills them in return, all based on Bible texts.

While the Bible can be taken in support of many things, it is certainly a fact that such stories thoroughly permeate it.

How do you suggest that the uninitiated reader interprets such tales?

Hans
I'd suggest that they start with New Testament, of course.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:14 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Personally, I rather enjoy an honest engagement with an honest believer.

That said, I have come to understand that there exists a subset of believers with whom engagement is impossible and even making the attempt is futile.

This subset of dishonest believers are happy to flat out "lie for jebus" and simply care not a whit for truth, reality, science or even common sense.

What is accomplished? Nothing. Because that subset wants nothing to be accomplished and will refuse to allow anything to be accomplished by anyone.

At best, illustrating the absurdity might illuminate the nonsensical rot to lurkers. Maybe.
How do you think an honest lurker who is a believer is likely to react to your posts if they contain the phrase "Sky-Daddy"? Do you think it's more likely they will think of you as someone who enjoys an honest engagement with an honest believer, or as someone with whom engagement is impossible and even making the attempt is futile?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:20 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I'd suggest that they start with New Testament, of course.
So the OT is of no consequence? Ah, well. A fair number of your fellow Christians will disagree, but as far as I'm concerned, you're entitled to that opinion, which certainly serves to considerably reduce the noise level, AND basically puts you nicely in line with most of that Redneck dude's message.

Then there is just the violence in the NT.

Hans
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:25 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I'd suggest that they start with New Testament, of course.
There's less wrath, blood and vengeance in the New Testament, but it's still there.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:27 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
So the OT is of no consequence? Ah, well. A fair number of your fellow Christians will disagree, but as far as I'm concerned, you're entitled to that opinion, which certainly serves to considerably reduce the noise level, AND basically puts you nicely in line with most of that Redneck dude's message.

Then there is just the violence in the NT.

Hans
Rule of So.

More to the point, I do not agree that was "Redneck Atheists" message. After watching a portion of his video and looking at his other "body of work" he is a typical rant spewing anti-theist with a hillbilly shtick.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:51 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ahh, the concession that the the terms used were indeed "infantile descriptions."

I actually prefer when people use "infantile descriptions" because it is clear that not only do they have nothing interesting to say, they would not have the vocabulary necessary to say it in any event.

Self rebutting, not unlike our Redneck Atheist hero who can not string together more than a sentence or two without referring to having intercourse with one's mother.

Scintillating.
I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery. There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god".
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:52 AM   #102
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:54 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How do you think an honest lurker who is a believer is likely to react to your posts if they contain the phrase "Sky-Daddy"? Do you think it's more likely they will think of you as someone who enjoys an honest engagement with an honest believer, or as someone with whom engagement is impossible and even making the attempt is futile?
Why are you asking me for that which I cannot possibly know? Are there lurkers? Sure. What do they think? How can anyone tell?

You seem to be claiming to know exactly how they might think and respond on the basis of...something.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 09:01 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Personally, I rather enjoy an honest engagement with an honest believer.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery. There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god".
It is rare that one sees someone so blatantly contradict their statements so quickly, so clearly, so hypocritically....
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Old 3rd November 2017, 09:24 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is rare that one sees someone so blatantly contradict their statements so quickly, so clearly, so hypocritically....
Not if one follows your posts, quite common.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 09:33 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Why are you asking me for that which I cannot possibly know? Are there lurkers? Sure. What do they think? How can anyone tell?
I asked you what you thought was likely.

Quote:
You seem to be claiming to know exactly how they might think and respond on the basis of...something.
I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that people who feel attacked or belittled are more likely to become defensive than those who do not. Nor do I think it's particularly controversial to say that people who feel attacked or belittled are less likely to be receptive to the things being said by the people they feel are attacking or belittling them than they are to things being said by people they do not feel are attacking or belittling them.

Do you disagree with either of these propositions? If so, can you explain why? If not, then can you understand how it's reasonable to conclude that attacking and belittling those with religious beliefs by using terms such as "Sky-Daddy" is less likely to facilitate "honest engagement" than not framing your arguments in such a manner?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 09:36 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Not if one follows your posts, quite common.
Oh, the devastating "No, YOU!" rejoinder.

I am cut through, I am hurt.
A plague o' both your houses! I am sped.
Is he gone and hath nothing?
Help me into some house, Benvolio,
Or I shall faint. A plague o' both your houses!
They have made worms' meat of me. I have it,
And soundly too.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:59 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I would say that lawsuits and constitutional arguments are more effective means of preventing this than a video that isn't going to be viewed by anybody who doesn't already agree with it.
Yep.

And a hydrogen bomb is more effective than a hand grenade.

And your posts are unlikely to be agreed with by anybody who doesn't already agree with them. So, by your own reasoning, you should stop posting.

The list could, of course, go on.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't get why people need to frame these kinds of videos as some sort of noble crusade, when they're much more obviously about pointing and laughing at people whose beliefs they consider to be stupid.
That is your interpretation of the video you didn't watch, which fails to align with an objective viewing of the video, which reveals only ridicule of the hogwash Burnett and Downey are campaigning to infect the public schools with.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And if you need to misrepresent what's actually going on in the video, rather than just owning it, then what does that say about what you really think about it?
You need to misrepresent what is actually going on in the video you didn't watch, to serve your agenda. That misrepresentation is highlighted in yellow.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:11 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery.
Absolutely they do, and belief in Sky Daddies and other magical deities or whatever you want to call them is deserving of all the mockery it gets


Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god".
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:19 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
And a hydrogen bomb is more effective than a hand grenade.
Do you genuinely consider this video a "hand grenade" in this fight? What that is positive in this fight do you believe it's likely to achieve?

Quote:
And your posts are unlikely to be agreed with by anybody who doesn't already agree with them. So, by your own reasoning, you should stop posting.
I would hope that I'm presenting cogent arguments. The lack of cogent counter-arguments and, indeed, your outright avoidance and straw manning of much of what I've said certainly serves to me as an indication that you are unable to offer cogent counter-arguments. Whether that speaks to the quality of my arguments or the lack of quality of your posting is an exercise I'll leave up to the reader.

Quote:
That is your interpretation of the video you didn't watch, which fails to align with an objective viewing of the video, which reveals only ridicule of the hogwash Burnett and Downey are campaigning to infect the public schools with.
Could you point me to a specific time stamp in the video that you feel addresses the issue of religious education in schools? There's a very brief mention of schools within the first 20 seconds or so before the subject is changed, and that doesn't actually address the issue at all, but it's entirely possible that I've missed something salient.

Quote:
You need to misrepresent what is actually going on in the video you didn't watch, to serve your agenda. That misrepresentation is highlighted in yellow.
Again, I'd appreciate it if you could point me to something specific in the video that you feel contradicts what I've said about it. Thus far everything everybody, including you, has said about it has reinforced my impression, but I'm more than willing to be persuaded otherwise.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:23 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Absolutely they do, and belief in Sky Daddies and other magical deities or whatever you want to call them is deserving of all the mockery it gets

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6jd23tzu8ijvg2b/clap.gif?dl=1
Sky daddies? Wow, that is original! Say is that something you made up yourself, because that level of trenchant analysis is absolutely rock solid gold.

If so, well done!
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:24 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its hard to engage at all, let alone "honestly", with someone whose posts are largely fact-free and consist mostly of cynicism, snide remarks and "lolz".
You said the above. Do you honestly not see how exactly the same can be said about posts such as the following?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Absolutely they do, and belief in Sky Daddies and other magical deities or whatever you want to call them is deserving of all the mockery it gets
If you can't, then can you explain how it's different? And if you can, then what we're seeing is a situation in which two groups of people who disagree with each other are both refusing to engage with the other because of the way in which each is framing their arguments. Do you not think there may be a more productive way to communicate?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:35 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Personally, I rather enjoy an honest engagement with an honest believer.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is rare that one sees someone so blatantly contradict their statements so quickly, so clearly, so hypocritically....
TBD: can you identify which of you has failed to distinguish between people and claims?

TBD: Can you identify which of you has implied that "an honest believer" will resort to infantile claims, thereby triggering mockery?

I'm betting against you.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:41 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sky daddies? Wow, that is original! Say is that something you made up yourself, because that level of trenchant analysis is absolutely rock solid gold.

If so, well done!
Is it? Then you can present evidence that your deity of choice actually exists.

Can you do that?

No. You cannot.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:45 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
TBD: can you identify which of you has failed to distinguish between people and claims?

TBD: Can you identify which of you has implied that "an honest believer" will resort to infantile claims, thereby triggering mockery?

I'm betting against you.
wait, wait, wait. Did you really just intentionally delete a part of the post I had quoted?

Wow!

Here it is in its entirety!!

"I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery. There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god"."

So to sum up, the first post:

"Personally, I rather enjoy an honest engagement with an honest believer."

the second:

"I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery. There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god"."

As such, how can some claim to "enjoy' "honest debate" with someone he calls an "honest believer" while at the same time asserting that the "honest believer's" actual beliefs are "infantile" "deserve mockery" and that there is "more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god.""

You just really lost that bet.

But thanks for allowing me the pleasure of spelling this all out in detail.

Fantastic
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:50 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
<snip>.
You borked the quotes. Which bits are yours and which bits are Toons?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:57 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You borked the quotes. Which bits are yours and which bits are Toons?
Thanks. Fixed.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:10 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Rule of So.

More to the point, I do not agree that was "Redneck Atheists" message. After watching a portion of his video and looking at his other "body of work" he is a typical rant spewing anti-theist with a hillbilly shtick.
So you have no comment to the violence in the NT?

Hans
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:11 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh, the devastating "No, YOU!" rejoinder.

I am cut through, I am hurt.
A plague o' both your houses! I am sped.
Is he gone and hath nothing?
Help me into some house, Benvolio,
Or I shall faint. A plague o' both your houses!
They have made worms' meat of me. I have it,
And soundly too.
And .. you cannot comment on the violence in the NT?

Hans
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:12 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wait, wait, wait. Did you really just intentionally delete a part of the post I had quoted?

Wow!

Here it is in its entirety!!

"I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery. There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god"."

So to sum up, the first post:

"Personally, I rather enjoy an honest engagement with an honest believer."

the second:

"I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery. There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god"."

As such, how can some claim to "enjoy' "honest debate" with someone he calls an "honest believer" while at the same time asserting that the "honest believer's" actual beliefs are "infantile" "deserve mockery" and that there is "more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god.""

You just really lost that bet.

But thanks for allowing me the pleasure of spelling this all out in detail.

Fantastic
And you have no comments on the violence in the NT?

Hans
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