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Tags 2016 elections , Clinton controversies , Democratic primaries , dnc , Donna Brazile , election controversies , hillary clinton

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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:48 AM   #41
The Big Dog
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Sanders gave $100K to DNC in May: report

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign...-in-may-report

Man, did he get scammed....
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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:48 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a difference between how people think the party should be run, and how people think the party is being run.

Personally I think parties should be run however they want. If you don't like it, take control or form a new party. But it seems like in the last presidential campaign there was a substantial mismatch between how registered Democrats thought the party was being run, and how it was actually being run.
This.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:56 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
For certain definitions of the words "rigged"

Remind me how much money Bernie brought to the DNC and downballot candidates ??

Remind me how long Bernie was a registered democrat ?
Are you defending the idea of pay to play?

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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sanders gave $100K to DNC in May: report

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign...-in-may-report

Man, did he get scammed....
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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:59 AM   #45
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It's kind of cute how conservative posters believe this is a thing with everything that's happening currently.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:59 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Interesting to see when the "Sanders was not a real democrat" nonsense will dry up given the fact that the Clinton campaign ********** the State Parties too.
No, no. You see, progressive insistence on a fair and forthright election without disproportionate power for monied interests only applies to the general election.

At least that's all I can come up with.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:02 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's kind of cute how conservative posters believe this is a thing with everything that's happening currently.
The existence of other things doesn't negate this thing.

A common fallacy employed far too often lately by my fellow liberals.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:02 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The existence of other things doesn't negate this thing.

A common fallacy employed far too often lately by my fellow liberals.

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But this isn't a thing. Clinton is a non-factor.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:04 AM   #49
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My two cents

The primaries were created in the first place to bring more openness to the selection process. Literally to bring it out of the smoke filled back room. It turns out that both parties were really just using the primaries as a smoke screen but the Dems were better at it than the GOP.

Was it illegal, no. Was it a bit of trickery meant to deceive the rank and file democrat party members, yes. Should the rank and file members be upset, that's up to them. I would be. It was a bit like a magician dealing from the bottom of the deck but in a real card game rather than for a trick.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:04 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's kind of cute how conservative posters believe this is a thing with everything that's happening currently.
It is a thing in itself, regardless of what else may be happening. Bad things do not become good things just because there are worse bad things around as well.

And maybe if the Democratic party hadn't been soaking in corruption up to its eyeballs it might have had more success, either with Clinton or even--imagine it!-- a better candidate! That would have prevented much of that "everything" happening currently.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:05 AM   #51
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I guess this is another thing that looks bad until you spend more than 10 seconds researching it?

Another Clinton nothingburger. C'mon TbD! Give us something useful.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:22 AM   #52
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All this might matter, if Hillary was president.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:31 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
For the record: I think Clinton was a terrible candidate, the sort of dynastic insider the world could do so well without, and the Democratic party deserves all the scorn, contempt and ridicule in the world for not building up a better candidate (which Sanders of course was NOT). But you can't blame Clinton for using the leverage, the money, the inside connections she had. You can't even blame those within the DNC who bought the notion that HRC is the best pick and ought to be pushed. They were wrong - but being wrong is not a scandal.
By that standard you can't blame Trump for anything, either -- after all, he won. The real point is that by Clinton seizing control of the DNC -- and the DNC permitting it -- other potential candidates were driven away. They knew they wouldn't get money or support. Sanders was a late entrant largely because he didn't want to see Clinton coast to the nomination unopposed, and he never expected to do as well as he did. With other candidates in the picture, Sanders might not even have run and Clinton might not have been nominated.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:33 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
All this might matter, if Hillary was president.
It's all part of figuring out how we got here and trying to prevent it in the future.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 11:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Are you defending the idea of pay to play?

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No. When did you stop beating your wife ?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:00 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Who is "they?" The point is that the "party" -- however you define it -- shouldn't be run by and for the benefit of one candidate. The party and Clinton are not one and the same -- or shouldn't have been.
I'm not surprised to see the alt-right in this forum gleefully looking to distract from their corrupt POTUS, but the Progressives need to take a step back and look at the facts.

First and most important, nothing that happened in the DNC prevented Sanders from raising money, getting his message out, and having access to the DNC infrastructure such as the data base (oh yeah, his staff cheated and they lost access to the data base for all of a day ). The debate schedule was overrated. In the end Sanders didn't want another debate IIRC.

So nothing was "rigged".

Then there is the distortion of what actually is in Brazile's book,
per Brazile herself: Former DNC chair denies she said Democratic primary was rigged, tells Trump to stop 'trolling' her.

And boy is he trolling this morning.

From what I understand from todays pundits on MSNBC, both Clinton and Sanders signed the same agreements about raising money for the Democratic Party. Clinton raised money for the Party giving her some say in how that money was used. Sanders raised no money for the Democratic Party.

Sanders is only a Democrat when it's convenient. He contributed little to the party itself. Yet somehow the DNC is rigged against him?

I do wish people would not place the blame for our two party system solely on the Democrats. Sanders and his base are angry the DNC didn't equally support his candidacy. It's not how I see the world.

For anyone interested, Joy Reid has a thorough account via a string of Tweets here: A small note - that’s actually a big one - on the subject of “rigging...” (Pretty sure one need not sign in to see the Tweets.)

Here are some excerpts:
Quote:
But the question is -- what could the DNC have done to actually cause Sanders to lose the states he lost, which cost him the nomination?

Even if one objects to the JFA as Donna did it didn't hurt Sanders financially. By April he'd raised as much as HRC....

The DNC & the party writ large very openly favored Hillary Clinton. Obama lost huge primaries and won caucuses. He still got the nomination.

And by the way, if you made the superdelegates proportional, or disappeared them, Clinton still would have won:
That last inconvenient truth didn't stop Sanders from exploiting the lie that the superdelegates were going to pick the candidate.

Quote:
So here's the deal: the DNC is full of super-Democrats who are party loyalists and yep, they favored Clinton over the independent Sanders.

They snarked about him in emails stolen and released by Russian hackers. They were a sloppy organization that was broke and needed Clinton.
28 replies 483 retweets 2,103 likes

And they entered into a deal that basically saw the more or less inevitable nominee, based on the primary calendar, loan them money.

But snarky emails didn't cost Bernie Sanders the nomination. DNC fundraising deals with Clinton (for money to spend in the GENERAL election)
44 replies 565 retweets 2,197 likes

didn't either. Sanders didn't win the nomination because Hillary Clinton got more votes than he did. She won the calendar.

And she got more votes particularly in states with large black voting populations, which is how Democrats win primaries.


We'll see how Tom Perez handles this serious PR problem. I've not been impressed so far. His recent appointments and now this are stirring the pot. I don't have a lot of confidence the Democrats can address their messaging and marketing. The country is suffering and we need the Democrats to gain state and national seats in a big way.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:02 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It is a thing in itself, regardless of what else may be happening. Bad things do not become good things just because there are worse bad things around as well.

And maybe if the Democratic party hadn't been soaking in corruption up to its eyeballs it might have had more success, either with Clinton or even--imagine it!-- a better candidate! That would have prevented much of that "everything" happening currently.
Much sense and wisdom from tragic monkey.

(Now I know we are living in a dystopia)
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:29 PM   #58
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Blown away by all the Clinton folks claiming that a rigged primary in the DNC and in doing so bled the State parties dry is no big deal.

Did you see the part where "Yet the states kept less than half of 1 percent of the $82 million they had amassed from the extravagant fund-raisers Hillary’s campaign was holding."

I do enjoy the fact that people claim that Hillary won anyway, when the evidence was the primaries were flat *********** rigged from the get go.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:37 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Blown away by all the Clinton folks claiming that a rigged primary in the DNC and in doing so bled the State parties dry is no big deal.

Did you see the part where "Yet the states kept less than half of 1 percent of the $82 million they had amassed from the extravagant fund-raisers Hillary’s campaign was holding."

I do enjoy the fact that people claim that Hillary won anyway, when the evidence was the primaries were flat *********** rigged from the get go.
Yawn. I believe every liberal on this forum (yes, every liberal!) voted for Bernie in the Primary. Where are all those "Clinton Folks"?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:38 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
But this isn't a thing. Clinton is a non-factor.
You're right, the machinations inside a political party that will almost certainly still exist in the next election cycle and be in opposition to Trump is of no concern.

I'm sure that's the pragmatic attitude we need to win.

God this country is so **********.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:39 PM   #61
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I'm beginning to think this is a bit of a rorshach test.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
All this might matter, if Hillary was president.
Our dismissal of anything other than "the winner" having any worth at all has always struck me as one of the stupidest features of our species.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:42 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
No. When did you stop beating your wife ?
I did not insert a premise into the question, so save your witty retort for when it actually fits the situation?

Wow, it's like liberals all lose 50 IQ points if you say "Hillary."

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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:48 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yawn. I believe every liberal on this forum (yes, every liberal!) voted for Bernie in the Primary. Where are all those "Clinton Folks"?
Oh dear, are we boring you? Now if it was me, I would start with reviewing the thread and seeing where people post things like Sanders is not a real democrat, that "Sanders is only a Democrat when it's convenient. He contributed little to the party itself. Yet somehow the DNC is rigged against him" etc etc.

the fact that you believe that "every liberal on this forum (yes, every liberal!) voted for Bernie in the Primary" is utterly adorable.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:52 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear, are we boring you? Now if it was me, I would start with reviewing the thread and seeing where people post things like Sanders is not a real democrat, that "Sanders is only a Democrat when it's convenient. He contributed little to the party itself. Yet somehow the DNC is rigged against him" etc etc.

the fact that you believe that "every liberal on this forum (yes, every liberal!) voted for Bernie in the Primary" is utterly adorable.

Go back and review ... that one thread ... even Tony Stark voted for Bernie.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:55 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Go back and review ... that one thread ... even Tony Stark voted for Bernie.
I'd start in this thread on this page if I were you..
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:57 PM   #67
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I think it is very much a mistake for the party apparatus to be under the control of a candidate who has not yet won the nomination (or is not the sitting President). Is it against the law? I doubt that very much. But on its face, it is certainly undesirable.

It all has to do with not burning the other candidates supporters. Nobody likes losing, but people really hate losing when they think the other side cheated to win. It makes them less willing to bury the hatchet. Warren's comment indicates that quite a few people are still angry.

Big changes are coming to the DNC as a result of this, I guarantee you.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:38 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
But this isn't a thing. Clinton is a non-factor.
Tell her that
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:39 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know when I said you just couldn't leave Clinton alone even though she's "done", and you said it was because she made a book? Yeah, no. You need your Clinton fix.
This is no mere disturbance syndrome, it's full-on derangement.

From one perspective it's rather odd that The Big Dog should welcome this, since having it all come out now means it won't happen next time. The renewal of the party has to start from a point like this - a recognition that things went wrong and need fixing.

From another perspective, Clinton bad, so he's gotta love it.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:41 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
This is no mere disturbance syndrome, it's full-on derangement.

From one perspective it's rather odd that The Big Dog should welcome this, since having it all come out now means it won't happen next time. The renewal of the party has to start from a point like this - a recognition that things went wrong and need fixing.

From another perspective, Clinton bad, so he's gotta love it.
TBD is not what this thread is about.

Try again.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:43 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
This is no mere disturbance syndrome, it's full-on derangement.

From one perspective it's rather odd that The Big Dog should welcome this, since having it all come out now means it won't happen next time. The renewal of the party has to start from a point like this - a recognition that things went wrong and need fixing.

From another perspective, Clinton bad, so he's gotta love it.
Quote:
Oh dear....

“The fact of the matter remains, the way the system was conducted, the DNC did not follow its own bylaws. And so if we’re going to have some truth talk here, let’s talk about reform and let’s talk about unity,” Nina Turner, a former Ohio state senator.

“This is really about a DNC that lacks accountability and transparency. Period,” Turner said.
Nina has full blown derangement!

TBDDerangement Syndrome in action folks, wow....
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:52 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
But this isn't a thing. Clinton is a non-factor.
Clinton is absolutely a factor. Following the critique of Hillary's book from the left, I realized that there are a lot of mainstream democrats who feel betrayed and let down by the Hillary campaign. They don't just blame trumpian populism or Russian meddling. They blame Hillary Clinton. And that's not even considering the Bernie bros, whose trust in the party was already badly eroded.

The depth of Hillary's collaboration with the party leadership, to drive a failed presidential bid under the radar of the party faithful, will absolutely be a factor in the mid terms. And probably in 2020 too.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:57 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
All this might matter, if Hillary was president.
I think if Hillary were president, it wouldn't matter at all. This whole debacle is really a "by Democrats, for Democrats" thing. If Hillary were president, any complaints about the stratagem could be met with, "it worked, didn't it?"

It's precisely because it didn't work, that it matters so much.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:07 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
We all certainly remember that Sanders' supporters claimed the DNC had the thumb on the scale for Hillary. Now it seems that the thumb was Hillary's.

It would be fair to say at this point that the 2016 Democratic Primary was flat out rigged:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...381_story.html
I have not doubt all of this is true. It made her the least bad option as compared to having Putin's bitch like we do now.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:13 PM   #75
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Putin's bitch lost.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:15 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
and I answered it, and you did not address that or acknowledge the actual quote from the actual head of the DNC. "“The party cannot take out a loan without the unanimous agreement of all of the officers.” Rather, you just asked more questions trying to pretend that specific cites to specific section of the DNC agreement were necessary.

“The party cannot take out a loan without the unanimous agreement of all of the officers.”

what specific section of the agreement was she referring to? WHO *********** CARES?

Deal with that specific claim, and don't try to seduce people that specific cites are necessary in any way shape or form.

It is argument by minutiae, appeal to perfection, Gish Gallop and Just Asking Questions in a big disingenuous bow.
No.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:15 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Blown away by all the Clinton folks claiming that a rigged primary in the DNC and in doing so bled the State parties dry is no big deal.
Clinton folks? Where?

And nice bit of dishonesty there, pretending that there's no disagreement on whether there was rigging in the frist place. Care to address any of that? Of course not.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:16 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's kind of cute how conservative posters believe this is a thing with everything that's happening currently.
Like the GOP has no severe internal problems.....
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:17 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
TBD is not what this thread is about.

Try again.
And yet right-wingers don't mind bringing up Trump derangement syndrome in Trump threads. Apparently staying precisely on topic only counts when you find it convenient.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:19 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Like the GOP has no severe internal problems.....
Do you agree that the Democrats have a severe internal problem?
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