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Tags 2016 elections , Clinton controversies , Democratic primaries , dnc , Donna Brazile , election controversies , hillary clinton

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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:19 PM   #81
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I think it is very much a mistake for the party apparatus to be under the control of a candidate who has not yet won the nomination (or is not the sitting President). Is it against the law? I doubt that very much. But on its face, it is certainly undesirable.

It all has to do with not burning the other candidates supporters. Nobody likes losing, but people really hate losing when they think the other side cheated to win. It makes them less willing to bury the hatchet. Warren's comment indicates that quite a few people are still angry.

Big changes are coming to the DNC as a result of this, I guarantee you.
I love the way you guys are ignoring that whatever internal problems the Dems might have are next to nothing compared to what the GOP is going through.

Fact is, both major parties have real problems.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:26 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I love the way you guys are ignoring that whatever internal problems the Dems might have are next to nothing compared to what the GOP is going through.

Fact is, both major parties have real problems.
while no one loves a solid tu quoque fallacy like we do here, in this thread we are talking about the DNC's real problems in light of the disclosures that have broken over the last 24 hours.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:50 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sanders gave $100K to DNC in May: report

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign...-in-may-report

Man, did he get scammed....
So he'll sue. Right?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:54 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
By that standard you can't blame Trump for anything, either -- after all, he won. The real point is that by Clinton seizing control of the DNC -- and the DNC permitting it -- other potential candidates were driven away. They knew they wouldn't get money or support. Sanders was a late entrant largely because he didn't want to see Clinton coast to the nomination unopposed, and he never expected to do as well as he did. With other candidates in the picture, Sanders might not even have run and Clinton might not have been nominated.
I don't fault Trump for winning. I fault him for all his faults. Otherwise I mostly agree.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:56 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I don't fault Trump for winning. I fault him for all his faults. Otherwise I mostly agree.
And I would blame the RNC for not rigging their system like Clinton did so Trump would fail to get the nom - but then nobody else on their team was any good either.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:57 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yawn. I believe every liberal on this forum (yes, every liberal!) voted for Bernie in the Primary. Where are all those "Clinton Folks"?
TBD barks at me with a vengeance, but ignores the part where I declare Clinton a terrible candidate.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:59 PM   #87
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The full memo has been obtained by NBC. This passage seems important:

Quote:
Nothing in this agreement shall be construed to violate the DNC's obligation of impartiality and neutrality through the Nominating process. All activities performed under this agreement will be focused exclusively on preparations for the General Election and not the Democratic Primary. Further we understand you may enter into similar agreements with other candidates.
ETA: Full article from NBC.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:00 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear, are we boring you? Now if it was me, I would start with reviewing the thread and seeing where people post things like Sanders is not a real democrat, that "Sanders is only a Democrat when it's convenient. He contributed little to the party itself. Yet somehow the DNC is rigged against him" etc etc.

the fact that you believe that "every liberal on this forum (yes, every liberal!) voted for Bernie in the Primary" is utterly adorable.
There is a false dilemma here in this thread where the Democratic party's actual choice boils down to either Clinton or Sanders. The scandal is that there was no third and fourth option - and that is not Clinton's problem.

The problem is private campaign financing.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:02 PM   #89
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But some of us are not thrilled with giving the Government total control over campaigning finiancing either.
How about strict limits on donations as an alternative?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:05 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Clinton is absolutely a factor. Following the critique of Hillary's book from the left, I realized that there are a lot of mainstream democrats who feel betrayed and let down by the Hillary campaign. They don't just blame trumpian populism or Russian meddling. They blame Hillary Clinton. And that's not even considering the Bernie bros, whose trust in the party was already badly eroded.

The depth of Hillary's collaboration with the party leadership, to drive a failed presidential bid under the radar of the party faithful, will absolutely be a factor in the mid terms. And probably in 2020 too.
I almost agree with this - except that the pie is not on Clinton's face but on the rest if the party leadershio. They need to figure out how to find a truly popular candidate with a popular platform and defend her against the Big Money / dynasty choice.

And no, Sanders was not really that popular.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:06 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Like the GOP has no severe internal problems.....
Whataboutism.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:07 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And yet right-wingers don't mind bringing up Trump derangement syndrome in Trump threads. Apparently staying precisely on topic only counts when you find it convenient.
Whataboutism.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:10 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I love the way you guys are ignoring that whatever internal problems the Dems might have are next to nothing compared to what the GOP is going through.

Fact is, both major parties have real problems.
If God gave you a choice: "dudalb, with a snap of your finger, you can fix one, but only one party in time for the next election", which would you rather fix?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:13 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Putin's bitch lost.
No, he's in the Whitehouse.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:20 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But some of us are not thrilled with giving the Government total control over campaigning finiancing either.
How about strict limits on donations as an alternative?
This reply and maximum one follow up, before we ought to branch out to a new thread:

Tax money ought to be allocated equally per capita of either the general population or per party member, and there should be low-level, democratic decisions on which candidates to support with that money. Whether each constituents decides, or perhaps elected county delegates, I am quite open. Almost anything would be better than the current system where the top 60,000 very rich donors (0.02% of the population) pre-select all important nominees.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:28 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
TBD barks at me with a vengeance, but ignores the part where I declare Clinton a terrible candidate.
Yes. Those people have a habit of that. If it's not full throated condemnation, it's full throated support.

I got no clue how they manage to think that.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:39 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Cayvmann View Post
Proof? None.

Clinton won the popular vote by 3M. Still lost. Sander had nothing to do with that.
True - the ignorance/stupidity of the existence of the electoral collage is the real problem
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:48 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yawn. I believe every liberal on this forum (yes, every liberal!) voted for Bernie in the Primary. Where are all those "Clinton Folks"?
I'm a Clinton 'folk' and this is bull. Clinton worked for the DNC fundraising, Sanders didn't. Long term Democrats supported Clinton, a long term Democrat over sometimes Democrat Sanders. The superdelegates did not affect the outcome. The debate schedule did not affect the outcome.

This is nothing but another attack-on-Clinton-distraction and unfortunately the Democratic Party is likely to handle it poorly.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:50 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I did not insert a premise into the question, so save your witty retort for when it actually fits the situation?...
Yes you did. You asked about pay for play, something there is no evidence happened in the Clinton camp.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:51 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I think it is very much a mistake for the party apparatus to be under the control of a candidate who has not yet won the nomination (or is not the sitting President). Is it against the law? I doubt that very much. But on its face, it is certainly undesirable.

It all has to do with not burning the other candidates supporters. Nobody likes losing, but people really hate losing when they think the other side cheated to win. It makes them less willing to bury the hatchet. Warren's comment indicates that quite a few people are still angry.

Big changes are coming to the DNC as a result of this, I guarantee you.


This from a supporter of the party that elected Trump.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:56 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No, he's in the Whitehouse.
It never ceases to amaze me how Trump merely has to say it and it becomes reality among his fans, evidence unneeded. As if Clinton conspired with Putin to lose or ???? They forget Putin had it in for Clinton.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:01 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Yep and he's going to try to ride that all the way to re-election (if he's not in jail) in 2020. Prepare for that and only that.

I remember when you blamed Hillary's loss on nothing but misogyny.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:19 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


This from a supporter of the party that elected Trump.
Whataboutism
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:26 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm a Clinton 'folk' and this is bull. Clinton worked for the DNC fundraising, Sanders didn't. Long term Democrats supported Clinton, a long term Democrat over sometimes Democrat Sanders. The superdelegates did not affect the outcome. The debate schedule did not affect the outcome.

This is nothing but another attack-on-Clinton-distraction and unfortunately the Democratic Party is likely to handle it poorly.

I thought you voted for Bernie in the Primary?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:43 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
And I would blame the RNC for not rigging their system like Clinton did so Trump would fail to get the nom - but then nobody else on their team was any good either.
Not for lack of trying, at least according to Trump during the campaign. He repeatedly tweeted that it was rigged.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:48 PM   #106
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The primaries are still somewhat fair, representing the two parties and their voters. The Republicans had weak/ goofy candidates. Trump turned into a populist and the rest had no chance.

I do not have a problem with this stage of the 2016 election.

I was impressed with Sanders as a speaker, but all in all, he was not that smart. Honest maybe.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:21 PM   #107
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I see certain posters are still jumping in to attack Hillary after using their brains in a highly skeptical manner and researching the truth. Or Not.

So basically, we have a deal signed that allowed Hillary to help raise fund for the DNC to do their job of organising for the General Election by pushing part of their fund raising to be used in the GE rather than the Primaries, and in return when it came to the GE, Hillary would get a say on who would fill vacant positions in certain areas and what the DNC were doing regarding communications and mailings. A deal that also quite clearly states that it's for the GE and not the PP, and that other candidates can be offered the same deal. We also learned that Sanders indeed was offered the same deal but turned it down because it went against his fund raising strategies.

Yet this somehow proves that things were rigged against Bernie?

Again I ask, How?

Let's look at what Bernie claimed...

* Limiting the early primary debate schedule

The DNC announced 6 Debates, which was the exact same number of debates officially setup as in 2004 and 2008. The major difference was that the 2016 schedules was closer to the Primaries than 2008 as the cut off time was closer as well. The last candidate announced in September 2015 which in 2008 would have been almost halfway through the debates. By having a longer cut off, and the debates closer to the primaries, not only were more people able to announce and enter the race, but the debates were fresher in people's minds come the primaries because they were happening at the same time instead of several months before like in 2008. How this is supposed to have been to Clinton's benefit is anyone's guess since having early debates, as in 2008, before anyone knew her opponents and before several had even announced probably would have been a greater benefit to her.

* Allowing party money to be used for Clinton fundraising

Now we learn that this was actually the other way around. Clinton Campaign money was being funneled into the DNC when it ran over the amounts they were supposed to be getting, so it could later be used for the GE. It's also been shown that Sanders team was offered the exact same deal and turned it down because they had a different style for fundraising. Now while that might be skirting the law because the caps are set on funding, it's clear that rather then the Clinton Campaign using the DNC's money, the DNC was living on money being raised and channelled into it by the Clinton Campaign.

* Briefly cutting off Sanders’s access to the party voter file shortly before the New Hampshire primary

As was noted in the article, this had nothing to do with Clinton, it was because a Sanders staffer was caught inappropriately accessing the information!

Seems even Bernie's claims of being biased again fall over. Still waiting to find out how it was rigged against Bernie, what actually cost him votes and gave them to Clinton?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:29 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I see certain posters are still jumping in to attack Hillary after using their brains in a highly skeptical manner and researching the truth. ....

Seems even Bernie's claims of being biased again fall over. Still waiting to find out how it was rigged against Bernie, what actually cost him votes and gave them to Clinton?
These claims are not Bernie's claims, these are claims by a the former President of the DNC and several other highly ranked Democratic party members.

Have you read any of the links??

Baffling...
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:35 PM   #109
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If the allegations are true, Hillary truly deserved to lose.

No way a candidate's campaign should have such control and influence over the RNC or DNC without the deal being transparent and known by all and agreed to by all candidates.

FYI- I voted for Hillary in the primary and on Nov 7th.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:38 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
These claims are not Bernie's claims, these are claims by a the former President of the DNC and several other highly ranked Democratic party members.

Have you read any of the links??

Baffling...
Apparently better than you did...

Quote:
The presidential campaign of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) had criticized Wasserman Schultz for limiting the early primary debate schedule, allowing party money to be used for Clinton fundraising, and briefly cutting off Sanders’s access to the party voter file shortly before the New Hampshire primary after a Sanders staffer inappropriately accessed information.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:41 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
If the allegations are true, Hillary truly deserved to lose.

No way a candidate's campaign should have such control and influence over the RNC or DNC without the deal being transparent and known by all and agreed to by all candidates.

FYI- I voted for Hillary in the primary and on Nov 7th.
Trouble is that they aren't. The deal that was signed was in regards to the DNC's operations during the General Election, not the Party Primaries, in fact it specifically excluded the Primaries and allowed others to make the same agreements with the DNC. Sanders' Campaign was in fact offered the same deal and turned it down because they determined that it didn't fit with their funding model.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:41 PM   #112
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That may be true — but two Democratic officials tell NPR that Brazile and Perez are referring to two different things. In addition to that joint fundraising agreement the DNC reached with both campaigns, the party and the Clinton campaign struck that separate memorandum of understanding giving the campaign staffing and policy oversight.

That document was signed on Aug. 26, 2015 — before, among other things, Vice President Joe Biden ruled out a run for president.

The DNC has not denied this characterization or timeline.


O'Malley, Biden, Sanders? The fix was in as early as 2015.

The fact that people are claiming there were similar agreements is a farce.

Rigged.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:45 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Apparently better than you did...
I was referring to the "rigged" allegations that came out within the last 24 hours, although we all appreciate you posting the latest ******** talking points.

Turns out Bernie was right, and the Clinton gang took over the DNC while Obama fiddled.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:45 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Trouble is that they aren't. The deal that was signed was in regards to the DNC's operations during the General Election, not the Party Primaries, in fact it specifically excluded the Primaries and allowed others to make the same agreements with the DNC. Sanders' Campaign was in fact offered the same deal and turned it down because they determined that it didn't fit with their funding model.
Please post evidence that Bernie was offered a DNC funding deal, that would have given his campaign extreme control and oversight over DNC functions and decisions.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:46 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Whataboutism.
You have no idea what that word means, do you?

Pointing out hypocrisy is not whataboutism.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:47 PM   #116
Hercules56
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http://www.npr.org/2017/11/03/561976...th-dnc-in-2015

Folks should read this.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:53 PM   #117
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You have no idea what that word means, do you?

Pointing out hypocrisy is not whataboutism.
HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Yeah, It wasn't whataboutism, it was just about a blatant tu quoque as you'll ever see!



just kidding, it was both...

Great stuff
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:53 PM   #118
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
And I would blame the RNC for not rigging their system like Clinton did so Trump would fail to get the nom - but then nobody else on their team was any good either.
Their mistake, I think, was having so many practically indistinguishable suit-fillers at the start of things. Only Trump stood out so he got the most votes at the first outing, hit the headlines for it, and after that was on a roll.

For a happy medium between a circus and an annointment I rather favour the Catholic concept of papabile, which is to say Pope-material - a reputation earned over time. A presidential equivalent in a party would cut out entryists and chancers.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:56 PM   #119
Hercules56
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DNC and Hillary signed a funding agreement in September of 2015.

Calls for a great deal of control of DNC decisions, hires, etc.

How could they have made such an agreement so early before any primaries had taken place?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 06:02 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I thought you voted for Bernie in the Primary?
Nope, I like his ideas but Clinton had the experience and the vast majority of negative BS about Clinton is BS.
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