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Tags 2016 elections , Clinton controversies , Democratic primaries , dnc , Donna Brazile , election controversies , hillary clinton

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Old 4th November 2017, 07:18 PM   #281
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You're a cruel man, but fair.
That's quite twisted don't you think, conservatives blaming Trump on liberals?
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:18 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'll ask you again, what specifically happened that rigged the Primary?
Just as I don't know what exact forms of collussion may have taken place between Trump Campaign personnel and Russia, Russian hackers or Wikileaks.....we don't know if the DNC engaged in any behavior that may have given Hillary and unfair advantage over Bernie.

We have a right to know. Don't you agree?
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:19 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
.... why oppose an investigation?....
Annnnd you've come full circle back to this lie.
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:19 PM   #284
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The assertion that primary parties that use the resources of States to conduct their elections are merely private organizations is utterly specious.

Next year I am going to hold the election for my fantasy football team on Election Day, Hillary 2020!
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:21 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'll ask you again, what specifically happened that rigged the Primary?
Hillary got the exclusive chance to approve candidates for certain positions in the DNC. It was wrong and presumptive but people seem to be putting an inordinate amount of weight into how important these positions are in the primaries. This is like pretending Sean Spicer was a kingmaker in the Republican primaries.

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Old 4th November 2017, 07:24 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So what do you mean then by asserting the premise the public has an interest in what the private Democratic Party does in their primary process?
The role the DNC plays in choosing the Democratic candidate for President means the public have a very compelling interest in knowing they are doing things fairly and without prejudice.

I am shocked that you disagree with this very important and basic concept.
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:25 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I remember trying to convince you that Democracy Now wasn't the best source of information, but I don't remember what specifically we were disagreeing over. It was a long time ago.

I actually listen to Democracy Now often on my way to work, despite thinking it's biased.
Regression toward the mean!

I agree about Democracy Now. As long as you maintain a bit of skepticism, it's a decent source of investigative journalism. I turned it off this morning when they opened with 'the rigged primary'. Goodman is pro-Sanders and anti-Clintons (both) and has been for decades.
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:27 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Just as I don't know what exact forms of collussion may have taken place between Trump Campaign personnel and Russia, Russian hackers or Wikileaks.....we don't know if the DNC engaged in any behavior that may have given Hillary and unfair advantage over Bernie.

We have a right to know. Don't you agree?
I don't seem to have a problem with the missing knowledge you are pining for.

You can't even hypothesize how the rigging might have worked yet you want to fish for it anyway.

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Old 4th November 2017, 07:30 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Hillary got the exclusive chance to approve candidates for certain positions in the DNC.
And? How did that affect the primary outcome?

Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It was wrong and presumptive but people seem to be putting an inordinate amount of weight into how important these positions are in the primaries. This is like pretending Sean Spicer was a kingmaker in the Republican primaries.
Which sounds like you agree with me then.
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:32 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
....
I am shocked that you disagree with this very important and basic concept.
How many times are you going to repeat this same false conclusion? This makes the third time you've said the exact same thing despite my telling you it was false.

I'm done here.
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:34 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's quite twisted don't you think, conservatives blaming Trump on liberals?
Lol. It's a direct quote of a liberal blaming Trump on liberals.
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:38 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't seem to have a problem with the missing knowledge you are pining for.

You can't even hypothesize how the rigging might have worked yet you want to fish for it anyway.
We have no comprehensive theories on how the Trump Campaign may have colluded with the Russians, Russian hackers or Wikileaks and yet we have spent almost a year looking into whatever posibilities we may find. Even if we find none.
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:52 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
We have no comprehensive theories on how the Trump Campaign may have colluded with the Russians, Russian hackers or Wikileaks and yet we have spent almost a year looking into whatever posibilities we may find. Even if we find none.
Who's we?

I'm petty sure Mueller has a couple of theories. He may be a hairs breath away from corroboration and confirmation.
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:04 PM   #294
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I want to know for sure that the DNC did not give Hillary any unfair advantage before she won the primary.

We have a right to know if our public institutions and those who act in the public's interest can be trusted.

If not we need to make some changes.
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:16 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I repeat the question for you, do tell us, other than the fact a lot of Democrats actually preferred Clinton, how exactly did this "steering" work?
How does it work when arguing against Citizens United?

Probably quite similar to that.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Goodness! Was there criticism of Brazile in Clinton's book that might have motived this attack on Clinton?
When powerful people get upset at each other and start exposing how the sausage gets made, the motives of said figures is kinda background noise, ya know?

Same tactic as often used against whistleblowers of any kind. Don't discuss the widespread institutional corruption, discuss the potentially impure motives of the person who gave us a peek behind the curtain.

Given a choice between responding to a present threat or slurping up salacious gossip, it seems our species has a clear preference.

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Old 4th November 2017, 08:24 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The smoke filled room gave us Hillary. The lack of one gave us Trump.
I see patronage models as a bit of an "it is among the worst forms of political platform organization, except all the others that have been tried."
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:36 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Regression toward the mean!

I agree about Democracy Now. As long as you maintain a bit of skepticism, it's a decent source of investigative journalism. I turned it off this morning when they opened with 'the rigged primary'.
But here you are insisting we feed you with the exact who, what, when, where, why, and how of it...

Quote:
Goodman is pro-Sanders and anti-Clintons (both) and has been for decades.
...and a ready rationale for self-censoring what information you will consider.
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:43 PM   #298
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If possible, try to decontextualize (ALWAYS!).

Take away all your emotional investment into Clinton, Sanders, Trump, the DNC, whatever.

Let's say that today you learned about Political Party A entering into a joint fundraising agreement with Politician Who is Almost Certainly Going to Run for Political Party A's Nomination in 2020 of identical scope to the one being discussed in this thread.

You can tell me that simple statement right there doesn't set off at least a few yellow flags?

This is absolutely a "nothing to see here folks, please move along" (non-)thing? Really?
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:45 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The smoke filled room gave us Hillary. The lack of one gave us Trump.
Which raises the question of whether or not we're smart enough to govern ourselves sensibly. I wish I were joking.
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:47 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The smoke filled room gave us Hillary. The lack of one gave us Trump.
I'm sure the Russians smoke indoors during their meetings.
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:51 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The role the DNC plays in choosing the Democratic candidate for President means the public Democrats have a very compelling interest in knowing they are doing things fairly and without prejudice.

I am shocked that you disagree with this very important and basic concept.
The RNC can be corrupt as hell and break all the rules they want. I don't care because I'm not a Republican and will never vote for one.
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:53 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm sure the Russians smoke indoors during their meetings.
And how, exactly, did "the smoke-filled room give us Hillary"? Did you not notice voters voting in primary after primary? I liked Bernie, but he just didn't get the votes. The DNC had their thumb on the scale, but nobody put a gun to primary voters' heads.
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:56 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The RNC can be corrupt as hell and break all the rules they want. I don't care because I'm not a Republican and will never vote for one.
Good for you.

I am under no compulsion to not be concerned with things that will absolutely impact my life in enormous ways.
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Old 4th November 2017, 09:07 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
And how, exactly, did "the smoke-filled room give us Hillary"? Did you not notice voters voting in primary after primary? I liked Bernie, but he just didn't get the votes. The DNC had their thumb on the scale, but nobody put a gun to primary voters' heads.
I was addressing the claim that a smoke-filled room gave us Hillary, but not Trump.

You are correct, Hillary did get the most votes in the Democratic Primaries and the general election.
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Old 4th November 2017, 09:09 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
And how, exactly, did "the smoke-filled room give us Hillary"? Did you not notice voters voting in primary after primary? I liked Bernie, but he just didn't get the votes. The DNC had their thumb on the scale, but nobody put a gun to primary voters' heads.
No, but there's forms of influence besides the over-used cliche' you've invoked.

Like media coverage long before a vote ever gets cast. This has an incredible amount of impact on who makes it out of the Exploratory Committee phase and in what kind of relative shape for a primary run. Despite a massively crowded field on the Republican side, most of them even got more coverage than Sanders. On the Dem side specifically, it always seemed to be "Clinton and the also-rans" before we even had registered candidates.

If you think that there's no control over media access via the parties, I remind you that DONNA BRAZILE is the central figure in this story so we'll just have to settle for the cognitive dissonance levels we're already at, thank you very much.
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Old 4th November 2017, 09:15 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
And how, exactly, did "the smoke-filled room give us Hillary"? Did you not notice voters voting in primary after primary? I liked Bernie, but he just didn't get the votes. The DNC had their thumb on the scale, but nobody put a gun to primary voters' heads.
I'd guess that more than half of the Democrats I know liked Bernie, but many of them went for Hillary in the primaries simply because they were afraid he'd get crushed by Jeb(!) or Cruz.
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Old 4th November 2017, 09:39 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I was addressing the claim that a smoke-filled room gave us Hillary, but not Trump.

You are correct, Hillary did get the most votes in the Democratic Primaries and the general election.
Sorry, I was trying to quote ThePresitge, who you were responding to.
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Old 4th November 2017, 09:41 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
No, but there's forms of influence besides the over-used cliche' you've invoked.

Like media coverage long before a vote ever gets cast. This has an incredible amount of impact on who makes it out of the Exploratory Committee phase and in what kind of relative shape for a primary run. Despite a massively crowded field on the Republican side, most of them even got more coverage than Sanders. On the Dem side specifically, it always seemed to be "Clinton and the also-rans" before we even had registered candidates.

If you think that there's no control over media access via the parties, I remind you that DONNA BRAZILE is the central figure in this story so we'll just have to settle for the cognitive dissonance levels we're already at, thank you very much.
I am not happy about what happened, but my outrage is reserved for what Trump does on a nearly hourly basis.
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Old 4th November 2017, 10:00 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
But here you are insisting we feed you with the exact who, what, when, where, why, and how of it...

...and a ready rationale for self-censoring what information you will consider.
Well that's another false conclusion about me. I've been watching Democracy Now on a regular basis for 2 decades. And I know all about the supposed 'rigged' primary.

Just because I haven't drawn the same conclusions as you and Hercules does not mean I don't know much about the subject.

I didn't ask anyone to feed me "who, what, when, where, why, and how". That's bull ****. I asked for the 'how', no more no less. There is no there here. The debate schedule, some emails among DNC members, what else you got?

You got nothing because the DNC did not and could not 'rig' the primary. Do your homework or quit sharing the imaginary 'Bernie was robbed' with anyone who actually paid attention during the primary..
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Old 4th November 2017, 10:05 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
If possible, try to decontextualize (ALWAYS!).

Take away all your emotional investment into Clinton, Sanders, Trump, the DNC, whatever.

Let's say that today you learned about Political Party A entering into a joint fundraising agreement with Politician Who is Almost Certainly Going to Run for Political Party A's Nomination in 2020 of identical scope to the one being discussed in this thread.

You can tell me that simple statement right there doesn't set off at least a few yellow flags?

This is absolutely a "nothing to see here folks, please move along" (non-)thing? Really?
Behghazi, Whitewater, Clinton Cash...

I repeat, the DNC did not have the power to rig the primary. I take it it's hard to accept Bernie actually wasn't the savior after all.

How was it rigged? Actually it was, a lot of the Putin Bots were selling the Crooked Hillary meme. Look in the mirror. You were sold a bill of goods on Clinton. You fell for the Russian scam hook, line and sinker.
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Old 4th November 2017, 10:44 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Behghazi, Whitewater, Clinton Cash...
What do any of those have to do with my position?

Quote:
I repeat, the DNC did not have the power to rig the primary. I take it it's hard to accept Bernie actually wasn't the savior after all.
I think you're entirely mistaken.

I'm not making a Bernie is the saviour claim.

Please, I repeat, respond to my position when you quote me.

Quote:
How was it rigged? Actually it was, a lot of the Putin Bots were selling the Crooked Hillary meme. Look in the mirror. You were sold a bill of goods on Clinton. You fell for the Russian scam hook, line and sinker.
You have entirely changed the point in a flurry of red herrings with sound bite references.

You think I'm the programmed one?

Your prior reply about Goodman/Democracy Now just reads like classic "I have all I need to know about this topic" which is a rather funny rationale for turning off a news story with new information in it.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

ETA: I don't believe the Crooked Hillary line, ergo I was not sold a bill of goods, bots did not sell it to me, and Putin isn't behind it (as it isn't true). I'm not the subject anyways.

Honestly, what a futile waste of neurons and bandwidth you've managed here...

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Old 4th November 2017, 11:08 PM   #312
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In this thread we see that Russia Hacked The Election based on anonymous quotes and some pressure indictments based on stuff from before the election...

At the same time, the DNC being corrupt to the core according to people willing to talk at length on the record about (D.B. is merely the latest) it and fitting the known narrative of completely hijacked electoral processes (which our best example of is sitting in the Oval Office)...

That's questionable?

Disclaimers:

I'm quite convinced that Russia tampered in our elections. I'm quite sure the number of countries who did so go quite beyond counting on hands in fact. Mostly because -given our graft-riddled system- an adversary would be stupid not to at least try.

My issue is blatantly different standards of evidence.

My take is if we're serious about getting control back (legally), what's our game plan? More copying the (now failed) Republican late 90s/early 00s playbook of pouring Wall St. money into massive ad buys?

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

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Old 5th November 2017, 12:37 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I repeat the question for you, do tell us, other than the fact a lot of Democrats actually preferred Clinton, how exactly did this "steering" work?
There are a lot of ways this sort of steering works, but primarily it comes down to handing out favors. There are an awful lot of positions that, even if they are elected, are basically chosen by the party leadership. Sure, someone could mount an independent or self funded bid to become a state Attorney General, which is an elected position, but in almost every case, the winner in the primary for those races will be the person endorsed by the state party.

Now, if a presidential candidate has friends on the state committee, those people can go to an aspiring candidate and say, "We really haven't decided who to back for Attorney General, but we really like Hillary Clinton for president. I think someone who shares her values would really be the perfect candidate for Attorney General. Say, what do you think of Mrs. Clinton?" When you control the insiders, they can get pretty much everyone up and down the line on your side. You can't actually tell people how to vote, but you can have tremendous influence over who everyone is talking about, who gets air time, to whom donors ought to donate.

I've worked on political campaigns, only low level volunteer work, but they are filled with people who hope to be rewarded for their service by receiving appointments or job offers. Clinton had a lot more influence passing out goodies like that, because her people were in positions where they could make it happen.
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Old 5th November 2017, 01:01 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So what do you mean then by asserting the premise the public has an interest in what the private Democratic Party does in their primary process?
Exactly that. The public is interested for good reason, resulting in e.g. the media reporting about it. I expect and hope indeed responsible journalists will investigate further, even if no laws were broken. Which they shouldn't if this was a truly private enterprise.
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Old 5th November 2017, 03:34 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Which raises the question of whether or not we're smart enough to govern ourselves sensibly. I wish I were joking.
And I wish there was a meaningful point that followed from raising that question. Oh well. "Wish in one hand, **** in the other, see which hand fills up first." Maybe you'll have better luck than me.
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Old 5th November 2017, 03:38 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm sure the Russians smoke indoors during their meetings.
LOL. Is that the latest conspiracy theory? The Russians selected the GOP nominee?
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Old 5th November 2017, 03:40 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I am not happy about what happened, but my outrage is reserved for what Trump does on a nearly hourly basis.
Hourly outrage must be difficult to sustain.
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Old 5th November 2017, 04:01 AM   #318
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
LOL. Is that the latest conspiracy theory? The Russians selected the GOP nominee?
Nope, but they sure did help him out quite a bit, in a more direct way than the DNC helped Hillary.
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Old 5th November 2017, 07:18 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Nope, but they sure did help him out quite a bit, in a more direct way than the DNC helped Hillary.
I wonder if Trump knows a political party is a private organization. I wonder if Trump knows a political party can quite legally make up it's own rules, break it's own rules, and favor one candidate over another. I wonder if Trump knows a political party doesn't even have to hold primary elections if it doesn't want to.

I don't wonder so much whether Trump knows Russia helped him more than the DNC helped Clinton. I'm pretty sure he does know that. I'm pretty sure he knows that like a cat knows the squat it's covering up.

But I do wonder when he knew it. Did he know it when he publicly begged Russia to give him Clinton's emails?
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Old 5th November 2017, 08:07 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I want to know for sure that the DNC did not give Hillary any unfair advantage before she won the primary.

We have a right to know if our public institutions and those who act in the public's interest can be trusted.

If not we need to make some changes.
The DNC and RNC are both private institutions.
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