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Tags shooting incidents , Texas incidents

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Old 6th November 2017, 12:13 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
There are parts of the UK which are so difficult to get to and, unless you're there to visit specific people, have so little to see if you're a tourist that thy're really not worth the time and effort to get there.

For example IMO it would make very little sense to go all the way to Alston in Cumbria unless you're already in the area. Yes it has a narrow gauge railway (but there are a lot of those in the UK) and the scenery is nice (but there's a lot more that's easily accessible) but it's a chore to get there.
I was in Alston a coupleo f weeks ago. Went for a ride on the Duke, Up Teesdale,up from Middleton to Alston, across the moors and down to Penrith. Back along the A66 and through Barnard Castle on the way home.
We had lunch in Alston
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:17 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
What is racist about attributing mental illness to this tragedy?
The Orlando night club shooter showed signs of mental instability. There is evidence that he was having trouble reconciling his homosexual desires with his religious upbringing. But, because he was brown the first response was "terrorist" not mental illness.

It is not racist to look into the mental health of any shooter. In fact, I think most mass shootings involve a mental health component. It is racist for that determination to be made without investigation completely based on the race of the shooter.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:19 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
There is a will to change gun laws in the USA, it's just that the NRA has a choke hold on those in government. Until the NRA loses power, these gun massacres will continue.
There is a substantial fraction of the US public (I won't say a majority, but it might be. It is certainly a large enough fraction to swing elections) that support the views of the NRA. It is very much a grass-roots organization. While it is popular among gun control advocates to make the NRA the bogeyman, it is more a symptom of the problem (if you believe it is a problem) than the cause.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:22 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I was in Alston a coupleo f weeks ago. Went for a ride on the Duke, Up Teesdale,up from Middleton to Alston, across the moors and down to Penrith. Back along the A66 and through Barnard Castle on the way home.
We had lunch in Alston
Was here visiting Daddy Don this last weekend....
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:25 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Reports are saying that he was court-martialed for assaulting his wife and child.
Apparently (based on another post) he purchased his weapon legally. Does a military domestic violence conviction not disqualify one from owning guns? If this is the case, it seems that is a loophole that needs to be closed.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:25 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
This is such nonsense. Terrorism is defined as "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." There is no evidence that this attack was politically motivated. When an attack is politically motivated, we call it terrorism regardless of the skin color of the attacker. We call the Oklahoma bombings terrorism. We call 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack terrorism and so on. If we are going to call mass shootings "terrorism" regardless of motive then why not also call it a "hate crime"? These things have real meanings. We treat hate crimes differently because of how they affect and intimidate and coerce the people still living. It greatly expands the set of victims. If this guy did this act on the behalf of a political group with the implicit threat to other church goers that they better stop going to Baptists churches or this fate might happen to them too, then we'd call it an act of terrorism. Similarly with a hate crimes.
Can you provide some examples where we labeled a shooter as a terrorist or not a terrorist based not on the shooter's motivations or affiliations but instead based on their skin color?
I agree. The idea that the fundalmentalist jihadist truck driver in Nice is of the same category as say, the Las Vegas killer is intellectually dishonest.

OTOH Calling the latter guy, 'mentally ill' is a cop out. ISTM he inherited psychopathic tendencies from his wanted-by-FBI robber father. The Sutherland Springs killer is more likely to have a personality disorder IMV than any specific mental illness.

We'll see. It's a slur on people with mental illnesses that they somehow therefore lack ethics, can't control themselves and commit criminal acts.

I know two people with serious mental illness, one is bipolar and the nicest person in the world. When she is on a manic high, she is the most fantastic company. The other is someone who hears voices and says strange things in conversation. He neither is likely to go on a killing spree with a gun. If anything, he avoids people.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:34 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Please elaborate on the licensing and registration. I've had several safety training and defensive training courses. I've had background checks with no problem. I passed the requirements for a handgun carry permit (but I don't carry).

What next?
Gun licenses. Before every purchase you ask for the license. It should be issued quickly, cheaply, and on 'shall issue' basis. Only after you have the license, you can take the gun from the shop. Any change in ownership of the gun must work the same. Transfer first. Also holder of the license is held responsible for the gun, and must report immediately if it's lost or stolen, and face penalty, if it was caused by irresponsibility on his side. License holder must also be able to present the gun for inspection, when requested.
That's how it works here in Czech Republic. Idea is you can't buy gun legally and resell it illegally, and when needed, the guns can be taken away from you.
We actually have to let inspectors into our houses and demonstrate the guns are correctly secured (the law defines required level of security based on how many guns you have .. like for example for 3-10 guns you need metal cabinet with lock, fixed to the wall). But that's kinda minor issue, and could be problematic in US.
And of course .. if you get convicted, you loose gun holder license and all gun licenses. You have to transfer them, or you face charge of unlawfully arming yourself.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:37 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Was here visiting Daddy Don this last weekend....
We were in the Four Horseshoes.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:38 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Apparently (based on another post) he purchased his weapon legally. Does a military domestic violence conviction not disqualify one from owning guns? If this is the case, it seems that is a loophole that needs to be closed.
A misdemeanor DV conviction is all it takes to disqualify you in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domest...fender_Gun_Ban
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:39 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I agree. The idea that the fundalmentalist jihadist truck driver in Nice is of the same category as say, the Las Vegas killer is intellectually dishonest.
What about the planned parenthood shooter then?
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:40 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We'll see. It's a slur on people with mental illnesses that they somehow therefore lack ethics, can't control themselves and commit criminal acts.
I don't think you fully understand mental illness.

Quote:
I know two people with serious mental illness, one is bipolar and the nicest person in the world. When she is on a manic high, she is the most fantastic company. The other is someone who hears voices and says strange things in conversation. He neither is likely to go on a killing spree with a gun. If anything, he avoids people.
With respect, you have absolutely no way of knowing that, any more than I know how a future mental illness might end up with me going on a rampage.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:44 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
A misdemeanor DV conviction is all it takes to disqualify you in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domest...fender_Gun_Ban
That's my understanding. However, apparently the perp of this mass shooting was somehow able to purchase a firearm from a licensed seller. I'm not sure at this point whether that's due to a defect in the law or a defect in the background check process. I any case, I'd like to see the defect corrected.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:44 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I don't think you fully understand mental illness.



With respect, you have absolutely no way of knowing that, any more than I know how a future mental illness might end up with me going on a rampage.
So what diagnosis did various shooters have? This shooting seems to be pretty basic domestic violence. He went there because it was the church of his mother-in-law who he was threatening.

Mental illness does is not an answer it is at best a class of answer, so you need to be more specific. The only mass shooter who had a history of mental illness I know about was the Virginia Tech and that was treatment for depression. That is not exactly a key marker to kill a lot of people.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:45 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
That's my understanding. However, apparently the perp of this mass shooting was somehow able to purchase a firearm from a licensed seller. I'm not sure at this point whether that's due to a defect in the law or a defect in the background check process. I any case, I'd like to see the defect corrected.
It seems to be the way the military charged him, it was simple assault not domestic assault.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:46 PM   #375
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http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-c...s-to-date-him/

Texas church shooter tried to bribe underage girls to date him

Quote:
“He was very sick in the head,” Katy Landry, a former girlfriend of Devin Patrick Kelley, told NBC News. “Years after dating me he would try to bribe me to hang out with him. He ended up assaulting me.”

Landry said she met Kelley in church as a teenager, but it was not immediately clear when their relationship began or ended.

Another girl, Brittany Adcock, 22, said Kelley dated her for two months around 2009 when he was 18 and she was just 13.

“At the time I didn’t think much into it being so young but now I realize that there’s something off about someone who is 18 with someone who is 13,” she said.

After she dumped him, Kelley pursued her relentlessly, offering her money to take him back and even disgustingly suggesting she live with him and his wife as a topless maid.

“One time he told me I should move in with him and his wife and that he would take care of me as long as I walked around topless,” Adcock said. “Not long after, his wife messaged me and asked why I’m talking to her husband and I told her what he was saying and sent her screenshots and she then apologized and then I was blocked from speaking to her.”
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:47 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I agree. The idea that the fundalmentalist jihadist truck driver in Nice is of the same category as say, the Las Vegas killer is intellectually dishonest...
No links between the Nice mass murderer and fundalmentalist jihadism were ever found (apart from the ISIS claim as in Las Vegas).

ETA: The Nice mass murderer had a history of mental illness btw.

Last edited by Castro; 6th November 2017 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:50 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
No links between the Nice mass murderer and fundalmentalist jihadism were ever found (apart from the ISIS claim as in Las Vegas).
But but but, Brown=terrorist!!!!!

No muslim could ever possibly just go on a mass murder spree for no reason like a proper white man does.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:00 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
What is racist about attributing mental illness to this tragedy?
The cause might well be mental illness. We'll see.

But the concern is that the default position among white shooters is mental illness, whereas Islamic shooters are bad people. Why not suppose that Islamic shooters are also suffering from mental illness, which would explain their self radicalization?

Anyway, let's see what evidence comes up.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:12 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I don't think you fully understand mental illness.



With respect, you have absolutely no way of knowing that, any more than I know how a future mental illness might end up with me going on a rampage.
You don't understand mental illness. Mentally ill people are very rarely dangerous.

The dangerous guys are the psychopaths.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:13 PM   #380
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How is wanting to kill a bunch of strangers not mental illness by definition?

The desire to kill might be because somehow, in one's twisted mind, these strangers or what they represent are to blame for the negatives in your life- personal or political. It might be because you think somehow this will be an example to others to help your "cause." It might be because you wish to become famous through the event. It might be because you believe them to be Venusians implanting evil thoughts into your brain by ESP. But in all these cases I see killing a bunch of strangers as inherently mental illness.

What to do about these forms of mental illness is much more complicated.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:14 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-c...s-to-date-him/

Texas church shooter tried to bribe underage girls to date him
Er, you/they seem to have left out the bit about his fracturing his stepson's skull.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:16 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
How is wanting to kill a bunch of strangers not mental illness by definition?

The desire to kill might be because somehow, in one's twisted mind, these strangers or what they represent are to blame for the negatives in your life- personal or political. It might be because you think somehow this will be an example to others to help your "cause." It might be because you wish to become famous through the event. It might be because you believe them to be Venusians implanting evil thoughts into your brain by ESP. But in all these cases I see killing a bunch of strangers as inherently mental illness.

What to do about these forms of mental illness is much more complicated.
No, it is not 'mental illness' by definition. You are falling into the same trap as the Soviets, who declared dissidents and investigative journalists 'mentally ill'.

It's a basic mistake to confuse fully conscious and deliberate behaviour with illness.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:19 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
No links between the Nice mass murderer and fundalmentalist jihadism were ever found (apart from the ISIS claim as in Las Vegas).

ETA: The Nice mass murderer had a history of mental illness btw.
Being a fundamentalist jihadist or other type of terrorist is not mutually exclusive with also being mentally ill.

If this Kelley guy has never been diagnosed as mentally ill, nor got a medical history of it, then it is simply using 'mentally ill' as a slur in the same way people used to talk about 'spastics' as an intended insult.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:20 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Apparently (based on another post) he purchased his weapon legally. Does a military domestic violence conviction not disqualify one from owning guns? If this is the case, it seems that is a loophole that needs to be closed.
I'm sure the murder loving republicans in congress and the NRA will get right on that after they square away bump stocks.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:23 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And you have some of the strictest knife laws in the first world.

What does that say?
That easy access to knives contributes to the knife problem. Unfortunately knives due to their every day utility are a lot more difficult to restrict than guns.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:23 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
No links between the Nice mass murderer and fundalmentalist jihadism were ever found (apart from the ISIS claim as in Las Vegas).
There's significantly more reason to believe that the Nice murderer acted on behalf of Islam than the Las Vegas shooter.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But but but, Brown=terrorist!!!!!

No muslim could ever possibly just go on a mass murder spree for no reason like a proper white man does.
Do you really have to spout your "theories" about racism on every thread?
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:26 PM   #387
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Wow, Vixen and I are in agreement, *twice*!

The vast majority of mentally ill people are far more in danger of being the victims of violence than the attackers. Yes, there are a few whose delusions are uncontrollable enough I feel uncomfortable about them having weapons, but remember, mentally ill includes depression, anxiety, etc, not just major mood disorders. That's why the usual definition of mentally ill for weapons purposes has been involuntary commitment of a certain duration. Unfortunately, the system is so overburdened that there are no beds available, so they're medicated and turfed after 72 hours, and nothing goes into the system.

This guy fractured a baby's skull. He served time for it. Nobody that knew him said he was crazy, just creepy or angry. Unless he left a manifesto somewhere saying he was ridding the world of mind-controlling demons, I think it's safer to say he was just plain mean.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:28 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You don't understand mental illness. Mentally ill people are very rarely dangerous.
I know, can you quote me saying that I though they were? I've been very clear about why I insist that mental illness plays a part in events such as these.

Quote:
The dangerous guys are the psychopaths.
Yeah, and that will be a mental illness.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:33 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what diagnosis did various shooters have? This shooting seems to be pretty basic domestic violence. He went there because it was the church of his mother-in-law who he was threatening.

Mental illness does is not an answer it is at best a class of answer, so you need to be more specific. The only mass shooter who had a history of mental illness I know about was the Virginia Tech and that was treatment for depression. That is not exactly a key marker to kill a lot of people.
I'm sorry, I can't see any point in this exchange if you persistently refuse to acknowledge that to shoot 26 people is linked to some form of mental illness unless I diagnose exactly what his condition was.

This isn't a case of extraordinary evidence.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:34 PM   #390
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It is not considered a mental illness, but a personality subtype or disorder, depending on severity.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:36 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But but but, Brown=terrorist!!!!!

No muslim could ever possibly just go on a mass murder spree for no reason like a proper white man does.
You are the only one in this thread spouting this pish repeatedly.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:36 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
How is wanting to kill a bunch of strangers not mental illness by definition?
Because the definition of "mental illness" doesn't include (even obliquely) the desire to kill a bunch of strangers?

Let's please not abuse the term "by definition". Thanks.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:39 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm sorry, I can't see any point in this exchange if you persistently refuse to acknowledge that to shoot 26 people is linked to some form of mental illness unless I diagnose exactly what his condition was.

This isn't a case of extraordinary evidence.
It is a case of a proposed logical tautology, you are reasoning in a circular manner. To do this he has to be crazy so he must be crazy to do this. Of course then defining crazy becomes not a case of saying having X kind of mental illness but rather describing the act of killing a bunch of people. So now all mass murders are crazy.

And up next using it to say that say a father who kills his son for being gay is mentally ill too. Where does this end? It isn't using the kinds of definitions that mental health professions use in diagnosing people, it is just a gut reaction.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:39 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
It is not considered a mental illness, but a personality subtype or disorder, depending on severity.
I should have entered my expectancy of this reply in to the MDC.

To the layman, the man/woman in the street, "mental illness" is more than adequate.

You are playing semantics.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:39 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, you/they seem to have left out the bit about his fracturing his stepson's skull.
And his handedness. They should discuss whether he is right- or left-handed.

Or the article wasn't about the domestic violence charge but about something else instead, so there is no harm in leaving out that charge. Sometimes, people talk about one thing and sometimes they talk about another.

I know. Conversation is weird.

ETA: Who gives a damn what the Post says? They are a half-step above the Enquirer. (Oh, yeah, so the President of the United States might care.)

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Old 6th November 2017, 01:41 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You are the only one in this thread spouting this pish repeatedly.
And all you are doing is trying to stigmatize mental illness, and use it to scapegoat the real problems.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:41 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Your explanation has reduced my terror somewhat. It looked from your argument that you were implying that ordinary private citizens were permitted to construct and use explosives - that there was a reasonable expectation that the person next door could be manufacturing explosives in their garage, the way there is a reasonable expectation (in America) that the person next door has a gun.

Thanks for clarifying.
you can make explosaives out of chemicals you can buy at any chemical storehouse,which have necessary and innocuous uses.
Hell, you can make an effective truck or car bomb out of some types of fertilizer and alcohol...
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:43 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I should have entered my expectancy of this reply in to the MDC.

To the layman, the man/woman in the street, "mental illness" is more than adequate.

You are playing semantics.
Unless they are muslim then it is all clearly terrorism. We can dismiss it as that as soon as the event happens, see the president for examples of it. He best illustrates this, white shooter=mental illness, muslim killer=terrorism. This goes to the extent that they will happy blame the victims for being muslim and thus making it islamic terrorism when a white guy shoots them.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:45 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is a case of a proposed logical tautology, you are reasoning in a circular manner. To do this he has to be crazy so he must be crazy to do this. Of course then defining crazy becomes not a case of saying having X kind of mental illness but rather describing the act of killing a bunch of people. So now all mass murders are crazy.
Yes, yes they are. I was quite clear about that earlier on in the thread.

Quote:
And up next using it to say that say a father who kills his son for being gay is mentally ill too. Where does this end?
Who is saying that?

Quote:
It isn't using the kinds of definitions that mental health professions use in diagnosing people, it is just a gut reaction.
And a quite sound and correct one for laymen. He was mental, he killed 26 men, woman and children.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:46 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I should have entered my expectancy of this reply in to the MDC.

To the layman, the man/woman in the street, "mental illness" is more than adequate.

You are playing semantics.
And the Orlando shooter? Mentally ill or terrorist or are you and I not quite qualified to know?

You're sure this guy was mentally ill? Aside from killing lots of undeserving folk, on what basis?
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