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Tags shooting incidents , Texas incidents

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Old 5th November 2017, 06:26 PM   #121
portlandatheist
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People will always die in car accidents. Therefore, what is the point of ABS brakes, seat belts, air bags, guard rails, tempered glass, licensing and registration, street lighting and all this other nonsense trying to prevent something we cannot stop?
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:32 PM   #122
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How about this idea....

You want to own or buy guns and ammo, then you apply at the local Police Station/NRA Office/Gunshop, and have a Federal Background Check Card, valid for 5 years unless the conditions are violated. The local police keep a record of who has a currently valid card so they are aware if they have to deal with that person in a way that invalidates the card, that they can remove it for violation of the conditions. The conditions are already spelled out in the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Then whenever you want to trade, sell, buy, etc weapons, all you have to do is show your valid BG Check card and away you go. No card, no sale. This would prevent the whole private sale and trade show no BG checks loophole, and save gun owners money because they don't have to get a BG check every time they want to but a new gun, rather it's always sitting in their back pocket.
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:38 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
You are right, I don't understand.

I don't understand how America accepts a murder rate of 4.88/100,000 when in the Anglosphere Canada has a rate of 1.68/100,000, the UK has a rate of 0.92/100,000 and Australia has a rate of 0.98/100,000.
Accepts a murder rate? That is adorable, but obviously not reality!
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:40 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Try not to step in the brains of the five-year-old child victim of this shooting on your way to the range next time.
I won’t, partly because I have my own range.
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:41 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Internet is saying the killer was dishonorably discharged from the Air Force. I believe that would bar him from being able to buy a gun legally. Be interesting to find out which illegal route he took to acquire a weapon.
Private sale. In most states there is no background check and no record of the sale.

Congress voted against closing this loophole after Sandy Hook because the NRA wants to keep it open.
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:42 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Someone come get me if we ever get to that brief window when we can talk about preventing these things and people still give enough of a **** to have a conversation.

Because not politicizing these events has such a great track record of not ending up with more walls being decorated with peoples' brains.
You post some stupid thing about me somehow stepping on a child’s brains, then complain about not being able to have a conversation? ******* amazing!
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:47 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
How about this idea....

You want to own or buy guns and ammo, then you apply at the local Police Station/NRA Office/Gunshop, and have a Federal Background Check Card, valid for 5 years unless the conditions are violated. The local police keep a record of who has a currently valid card so they are aware if they have to deal with that person in a way that invalidates the card, that they can remove it for violation of the conditions. The conditions are already spelled out in the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Then whenever you want to trade, sell, buy, etc weapons, all you have to do is show your valid BG Check card and away you go. No card, no sale. This would prevent the whole private sale and trade show no BG checks loophole, and save gun owners money because they don't have to get a BG check every time they want to but a new gun, rather it's always sitting in their back pocket.
Not good enough. You also need licenses for every gun. Having gun you don't have license for must be illegal. License owner must also be called responsible for the gun, and must be able to present it for inspection at any time. No grandfathering. No borrowing. If somebody looses right to have guns, police must know what guns he has, and he has to sell them, or face confiscation.

It's how it works here in Czech Republic. Besides that you are not limited much in what you can have. At the moment the gun owner license is for life though. There are new proposals to renew it every 5 years, because of mental health (there was one shooting caused by guy who was mentally ill but owned guns legally).

But then most pro-gun people in US are afraid even of that, as in Australia registration indeed preceded global ban and confiscation. Lots of pro-gun people also think they need guns to defend against government, and as such they don't want the government to know what guns they have as a principle.

Anyway I think the registration system would be passable at least in some states.
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:53 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Private sale. In most states there is no background check and no record of the sale.
Still illegal. We all know guns are available illegally, but the subject was legally acquiring the firearm.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12063827

Last edited by Ranb; 5th November 2017 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:56 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
That's like saying criminals will always have bombs, therefore we should make it legal to build and possess bombs.
It is legal to build and possess bombs; what are you getting at?
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Old 5th November 2017, 06:58 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
People will always die in car accidents. Therefore, what is the point of ABS brakes, seat belts, air bags, guard rails, tempered glass, licensing and registration, street lighting and all this other nonsense trying to prevent something we cannot stop?
Simple solution would be to ban cars
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Old 5th November 2017, 07:11 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Internet is saying the killer was dishonorably discharged from the Air Force. I believe that would bar him from being able to buy a gun legally. ....
A dishonorable discharge comes with a felony conviction. But is that the kind of discharge he received?

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 5th November 2017 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 5th November 2017, 07:17 PM   #132
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If anyone says it's too soon, sure, but it's time to discuss gun regulation in light of the Vegas shooting.
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Old 5th November 2017, 07:36 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Not good enough. You also need licenses for every gun. Having gun you don't have license for must be illegal. License owner must also be called responsible for the gun, and must be able to present it for inspection at any time. No grandfathering. No borrowing. If somebody looses right to have guns, police must know what guns he has, and he has to sell them, or face confiscation.
The question here is what issues do you think this would resolve that a BG Check Card would not? Just because someone has a lot of guns doesn't mean that they are likely to be a greater threat. You response seems to be more a solution in search of a problem rather than a solution to the problem at hand.

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But then most pro-gun people in US are afraid even of that, as in Australia registration indeed preceded global ban and confiscation. Lots of pro-gun people also think they need guns to defend against government, and as such they don't want the government to know what guns they have as a principle.
Australia didn't have a registration proceeding a global ban and confiscation. In fact today Australia had more guns in private hands than it did prior to the Port Arthur Massacre. What Australia did was bring in total bans for certain types of guns, and introduced the system of "show you have a need for it" to own a gun. Also the law change wasn't in response to registration, but rather the Port Arthur Shootings, similar to how Britain reacted to Dunblane and New Zealand did to the Aramoana shootings. In all three cases most people willing handed in guns they were unable to get licenced or hold onto legally because they were as appalled as everyone else and decided to act on it telling their Governments to pass the laws. The Governments didn't act unilaterally.

Quote:
Anyway I think the registration system would be passable at least in some states.
I think it's overkill for the problem, and one that would be resisted to the highest levels. Better to go with something that will work but is far less controversial.
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 5th November 2017 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 5th November 2017, 07:45 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Simple solution would be to ban cars

The solution is also made of straw, apparently.
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Old 5th November 2017, 07:55 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The question here is what issues do you think this would resolve that a BG Check Card would not? Just because someone has a lot of guns doesn't mean that they are likely to be a greater threat. You response seems to be more a solution in search of a problem rather than a solution to the problem at hand.
BG check card only solves the moment of the sale. It's no different to today's background check. If you loose your right to have guns, you will still be able to keep the guns you already have. Also nothing prevents you from buying then guns and selling them to people who do not have right to own them.
Gun registration solves all that.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I think it's overkill for the problem, and one that would be resisted to the highest levels. Better to go with something that will work but is far less controversial.
Like what ?
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Old 5th November 2017, 08:00 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post


Australia didn't have a registration proceeding a global ban and confiscation. In fact today Australia had more guns in private hands than it did prior to the Port Arthur Massacre. What Australia did was bring in total bans for certain types of guns, and introduced the system of "show you have a need for it" to own a gun. Also the law change wasn't in response to registration, but rather the Port Arthur Shootings, similar to how Britain reacted to Dunblane and New Zealand did to the Aramoana shootings. In all three cases most people willing handed in guns they were unable to get licenced or hold onto legally because they were as appalled as everyone else and decided to act on it telling their Governments to pass the laws. The Governments didn't act unilaterally.


.
For certain definitions of the term unilaterally
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Old 5th November 2017, 08:03 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
A dishonorable discharge comes with a felony conviction. But is that the kind of discharge he received?
CBS confirms a dishonorable discharge. Wasn't sure at first since I was mostly seeing the claim on dodgy social media postings.
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Old 5th November 2017, 08:22 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Private sale. In most states there is no background check and no record of the sale.

Congress voted against closing this loophole after Sandy Hook because the NRA wants to keep it open.
California requires all sales to be conducted through an FFL dealer with a BGC on both parties, a ten day waiting period before the firearm can be transferred to the buyer and the person receiving the firearm must have a state issued safety certificate and take and pass a dealer conducted "safe handling test" before taking possession of the firearm. The buyer must either be provided with a state approved safety lock by the seller or purchase same from the FFL dealer as a condition of legal possession. The buyer isn't even allowed to bring in a safety lock already in their possession - one has to leave with the firearm to ensure that it has one of it's very own - and this even includes old farts like me that have multiple safes to store gear.

I'm all for a system requiring all transfers to be conducted through a dealer w/ a 4473 and a BCG (of the instant Fed NICS variety) but the California circus act doesn't have any utility past making folks feel that by having the extra loops to jump through it "might" do some good in keeping guns out of the wrong hands.
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Old 5th November 2017, 08:32 PM   #139
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This is scary! Perhaps a gun control must be implemented. I can't imagine that 26 people were killed and 20 wounded in a mass shooting at a church in a small town outside Texas. Prayers for the victims!
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Old 5th November 2017, 08:38 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
BG check card only solves the moment of the sale. It's no different to today's background check. If you loose your right to have guns, you will still be able to keep the guns you already have. Also nothing prevents you from buying then guns and selling them to people who do not have right to own them.
Gun registration solves all that.


Like what ?
Not in America.

Here's the California program that addresses prohibited class persons with firearms registered in their name:

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/atta...fact_sheet.pdf

Below is the statute that the feds can apply to a prohibited person in possession of a firearm. Unfortunately I could never interest the U.S. Attorney's office in prosecuting someone we had in custody that was a convicted felon with an illegal firearm. I'd like to think that if word got around that a felon w/ a sawed off shotgun was facing a potential 20 year sentence (If consecutively sentenced on the two separate violations) and a half million dollar fine, certain folks might not be inclined to behave badly in my jurisdiction.

http://www.rip.uscourts.gov/rip/supe...rohibition.pdf

Unfortunately, here under state law, a felon with that sawed off might only face being remanded to custody if they were on parole or probation, and might at most face 30 months inside if there wasn't other crimes (robbery or assault) involved.
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Old 5th November 2017, 09:08 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
LOL, and if someone had heroically managed to stop this guy you would say God was working through him.
They do mostly have those quaint good-for any excuse ways about them!!!!
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Old 5th November 2017, 09:11 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Jeez, Vixen, get something right for once. All Saints' Day is 1st November. And the day before is, get this, "All Hallows' Eve", a.k.a. Hallowe'en.
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Old 5th November 2017, 09:16 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
There is now video labeled 'How US mass shootings are getting worse' on the page linked in first post. It claims 60% white, 20% black, 20% other for shooters. But what's interesting is the increase in last 20 years. Check this graph:

https://thesocietypages.org/socimage...015/07/132.png

Also interesting is that the first increase in 90s was during Clinton's "assault weapons" ban. Anyway there might be some correlation with increase of guns owned, which go sharply up since 90s. Still, guns were available before 90s, just as easily as they are today.

Looks like it's videogames after all !?
I miss the days when you could buy an anti-tank rifle from Sears for $199.00.

Of course the cartridges were $10.00 or (afai-recall) 12 for $100.00!!!! I was 15 or 16 at the time.
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Old 5th November 2017, 09:21 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Private sale. In most states there is no background check and no record of the sale.

Congress voted against closing this loophole after Sandy Hook because the NRA wants to keep it open.
Then the blood of these victims are on their hands.
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Old 5th November 2017, 09:27 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Private sale. In most states there is no background check and no record of the sale.

Congress voted against closing this loophole after Sandy Hook because the NRA wants to keep it open.
The NRA is not simply some monolithic ogre intent on opposing something that makes very little sense. It is composed of mostly ordinary Americans who want to preserve a basic right written into the Constitution. Not all members agree with some of their positions, but most do.

That would have done NOTHING to prevent the Sandy Hook Massacre anyway.

Closing the myth of a gun show loophole is simply more BS coming from those who want "reasonable gun control". Reasonable to whom?

ALL sales by a gun dealer anywhere requires an NICS background check period. However, a PRIVATE transaction does not in all states. Tell me how you suppose the ATFE or any other Govt agency is going to control that? Good luck.

The ATFE only prosecutes a very small percentage of attempted illegal purchases by prohibited persons now, yet you expect them to even monitor or prosecute someone selling a possession privately at a gun show or elsewhere (for that matter). You want it, you pay for it!

The culprit in the mass shooting near San Antonio reputedly got a Bad Conduct Discharge (BCD) at Holloman AFB in 2012 for DOMESTIC VIOLENCE against his wife and child. He served a 12 sentence in the pokey for that and should have been a prohibited person. We don't yet know how he acquired the weapon. If he got it at a gun show, let me know.

Now, if you want to stop the vast majority of illegal guns instead of punishing legitimate and responsible gun owners, stop straw purchases. Since the ATFE can't do it, maybe you ought to tell us how you expect the same agency to stop private firearms sales at gun shows or elsewhere. Maybe, just maybe it's not the problem slobbering mouth breathing politicians and their supporters think it is....
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Old 5th November 2017, 09:36 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Then the blood of these victims are on their hands.
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Old 5th November 2017, 09:44 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
QFT
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Old 5th November 2017, 09:53 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It is legal to build and possess bombs; what are you getting at?
That is a terrifying situation. Why do you put up with it?
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:03 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That is a terrifying situation.
Can you explain why it's terrifying?

Quote:
Why do you put up with it?
Where do explosives come from in your country anyway? Someone has to mine the earth, build roads and make signaling devices. No explosives fairy here to do it for us.

Over here we have laws and regulations which restrict who can possess and make explosives.
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/...54007/download
Here are the forms a person fills out; https://www.atf.gov/explosives/explo..._target_id=196 The applicant gets their explosives on demand as long as the forms are filled out correctly and the fee is paid.

Yeah yeah, you're going to go on and on about how you meant possession of bombs without a license. But I was attacking Hercules56's argument.

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Old 5th November 2017, 10:06 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That is a terrifying situation. Why do you put up with it?
Considering you're on the other side of an ocean, you must be easily terrified.

What RanB referenced is the fact that under federal law, but not under the laws of all 50 states, an individual if licensed by the feds can legally manufacture any destructive device their finances allow short of WMD.

There has never been an instance of a licensed individual committing a criminal act with a lawfully possessed destructive device, but there has been at least one non-fatal accident:

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/20/us...s-station.html
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:07 PM   #151
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None of this would happen in an open-carry state....
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:09 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Then the blood of these victims are on their hands.
Is that like all Japanese are responsible for atrocities committed by the Imperial Japanese army in China?
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:12 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post

There has never been an instance of a licensed individual committing a criminal act with a lawfully possessed destructive device, but there has been at least one non-fatal accident:

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/20/us...s-station.html
How many states don't have licences?



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Old 5th November 2017, 10:12 PM   #154
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Can you explain why it's terrifying?


Where do explosives come from in your country anyway? Someone has to mine the earth, build roads and make signaling devices. No explosives fairy here to do it for us.

Over here we have laws and regulations which restrict who can possess and make explosives.
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/...54007/download
Here are the forms a person fills out; https://www.atf.gov/explosives/explo..._target_id=196 The applicant gets their explosives on demand as long as the forms are filled out correctly and the fee is paid.

Yeah yeah, you're going to go on and on about how you meant possession of bombs without a license. But I was attacking Hercules56's argument.
Your explanation has reduced my terror somewhat. It looked from your argument that you were implying that ordinary private citizens were permitted to construct and use explosives - that there was a reasonable expectation that the person next door could be manufacturing explosives in their garage, the way there is a reasonable expectation (in America) that the person next door has a gun.

Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:16 PM   #155
BStrong
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
How many states don't have licences?



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No state that I'm aware of allows unrestricted manufacture and possession of primary or secondary high explosives, or even low order (blackpowder, flash powder, etc)

The binary types like those cited by RanB are impact sensitive and don't fall into either restricted category so are legal for civilian possession, but not here in California.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:19 PM   #156
cullennz
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
No state that I'm aware of allows unrestricted manufacture and possession of primary or secondary high explosives, or even low order (blackpowder, flash powder, etc)

The binary types like those cited by RanB are impact sensitive and don't fall into either restricted category so are legal for civilian possession, but not here in California.
Sorry mate. My fault

Thought for some stupid reason (me being an idiot and half reading) you were including guns

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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:24 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Your explanation has reduced my terror somewhat. It looked from your argument that you were implying that ordinary private citizens were permitted to construct and use explosives
They are. Ordinary Americans like myself have always been allowed to do so; with the correct paperwork. Just like we are allowed to drive a car on public roads, with the correct license.

Quote:
- that there was a reasonable expectation that the person next door could be manufacturing explosives in their garage, the way there is a reasonable expectation (in America) that the person next door has a gun.
I manufacture (I'm a maker, there is a difference) firearms in my garage. It is normal here.

Last edited by Ranb; 5th November 2017 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:29 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The binary types like those cited by RanB are impact sensitive and don't fall into either restricted category so are legal for civilian possession, but not here in California.
I was referring to restricted explosives, not binaries like Tannerite. I would simply use the Application for Explosives Permit here; https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/...40013/download

It's similar to but more lengthy than the form I use to make and register silencers. The fees can be lower though. If my info is wrong, please let me know. I've never actually applied to make explosives before.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:31 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Is that like all Japanese are responsible for atrocities committed by the Imperial Japanese army in China?
As a whole, yes, the WWII Japanese were responsible. They agree, and felt so responsible that they changed their Constitution to reflect it.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:35 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
They are. Ordinary Americans like myself have always been allowed to do so; with the correct paperwork. Just like we are allowed to drive a car on public roads, with the correct license.
I find that, while not necessarily terrifying, then at least worrying. I don't want to live next door to a person who's manufacturing explosives. I'd like that to be done on dedicated hardened premises that are a long way from population centres.

Remember the risk formula: possibility of something happening times the consequences of something happening. The chance of something going wrong with explosives manufacture may be small, but the consequences of a bomb going off in my next-door neighbour's garage is extremely worrying.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I manufacture (I'm a maker, there is a difference) firearms in my garage. It is normal here.
Yes, which is why I found it totally believable that people in America might be making explosives in their garages.

Again, this is the kind of thing (firearm manufacture) that I would prefer not go on in heavily-populated areas.
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