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Tags shooting incidents , Texas incidents

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Old 5th November 2017, 10:40 PM   #161
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There are other controls such as zoning and DOT regs. I'd need to update my garage before the ATF would approve my application I think.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:41 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
BG check card only solves the moment of the sale. It's no different to today's background check. If you loose your right to have guns, you will still be able to keep the guns you already have.
If you violate the conditions of the BG Check card and void it then when the police were dealing with that they could also remove any fire arms from the premises, not that hard to put in place. It's supposed to be done now, it's just a matter of making sure it is enforced.

Quote:
Also nothing prevents you from buying then guns and selling them to people who do not have right to own them.
Selling a gun to someone without a BG Card would be illegal, they get caught they get jailed.

Quote:
Gun registration solves all that.
So does proper enforcement of the current rules with a little bit extra added.

Quote:
Like what ?
Like a BG Check Card and enforcement of the current laws.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:42 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
As a whole, yes, the WWII Japanese were responsible. They agree, and felt so responsible that they changed their Constitution to reflect it.
As far as I know their present constitution was imposed upon them. From what I read they wanted something that was nearly the status quo, but they got something else. I don't have a link.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:44 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I find that, while not necessarily terrifying, then at least worrying. I don't want to live next door to a person who's manufacturing explosives. I'd like that to be done on dedicated hardened premises that are a long way from population centres.

Remember the risk formula: possibility of something happening times the consequences of something happening. The chance of something going wrong with explosives manufacture may be small, but the consequences of a bomb going off in my next-door neighbour's garage is extremely worrying.

Yes, which is why I found it totally believable that people in America might be making explosives in their garages.

Again, this is the kind of thing (firearm manufacture) that I would prefer not go on in heavily-populated areas.
Why would the use of a lathe, a milling machine and precision measuring tools and various types of jigs be of concern to you?
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Last edited by BStrong; 5th November 2017 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:46 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
As far as I know their present constitution was imposed upon them. From what I read they wanted something that was nearly the status quo, but they got something else. I don't have a link.
Not to mention the two nukes it took to even get to that point.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:49 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Why would the use of a lathe, a milling machine and precision measuring tools and various types of jigs be of concern you to you?
Look at the body of work. There are people with hoplophabia. There quite a few here with that affliction.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:50 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Why would the use of a lathe, a milling machine and precision measuring tools and various types of jigs be of concern to you?
They aren't. The fact that they are being used to manufacture firearms is of concern to me.

Obviously.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:51 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Is that like all Japanese are responsible for atrocities committed by the Imperial Japanese army in China?
Sure. People are collectively responsible for the society they live in. Indifference and passivity is consent. By standing idle to the oppression and brutality that the Japanese military committing in China and elsewhere they not only passively consented to it but indirectly supported it.

Similarly people who stand (and stood) idly by while homosexuals are oppressed are responsible for that repression too. Likewise those that tolerate people who arm themselves for war, only with minimal safeguards, and the watch as they turn their weapons on their fellow country men.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:53 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
As far as I know their present constitution was imposed upon them.
Which means the allies thought the WWII Japanese were responsible for the atrocities that the Imperial Army committed.
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Old 5th November 2017, 10:57 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Now, if you want to stop the vast majority of illegal guns instead of punishing legitimate and responsible gun owners, stop straw purchases.
Well there is a way to stop Straw Purchases, but gun owners would throw a fit.

Set up a blind database that has the buyer of a gun entered into it and also tracks change of ownership a bit like cars. Allow the police to access the data using the serial number of a weapon to locate the registered owner of any weapon they find in the possession of anyone that is not allowed to have a firearm, and if it was not reported stolen then throw the book at them both. Also throw the book at gun stores that knowingly allow a straw purchase.
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:00 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
CBS confirms a dishonorable discharge. Wasn't sure at first since I was mostly seeing the claim on dodgy social media postings.
Interesting because CNN reported it was bad conduct discharge:
Quote:
Kelley received a bad conduct discharge, confinement for 12 months and a reduction in rank, she said. The Air Force did not provide a date of the discharge.
Sounds like they might be almost the same.
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:02 PM   #172
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With regards to cars / trucks being used as terrorist devices, at least here in the Netherlands, that has actually led to actions being undertaken. A lot of areas that would be obvious targets (airports, squares in major cities etc) are getting large, concrete structures with gaps not wide enough for cars to go trough.
Yes, it curtails ones freedom to quickly park somewhere illegal to drop off a passenger because parking rules only apply to other people, but it does increase safety.

I, like many others, never understood why in so many US states the concept of responsibility is considered so evil.
If you want guns, you need (regular) checks to show you have the legal weapons and responsibility to own them. And if you cannot show the correct permits and documentation of the weapons you have you get arrested and the weapons taken away.

This should not impact the responsible owners in any way more than similar rules already in place for owning a car.
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:13 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Look at the body of work. There are people with hoplophabia. There quite a few here with that affliction.

Look, if you want to blow yourself up - go for it. If instead you blow yourself up and burn my house down in the process ...
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:15 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well there is a way to stop Straw Purchases, but gun owners would throw a fit.

Set up a blind database that has the buyer of a gun entered into it and also tracks change of ownership a bit like cars. Allow the police to access the data using the serial number of a weapon to locate the registered owner of any weapon they find in the possession of anyone that is not allowed to have a firearm, and if it was not reported stolen then throw the book at them both. Also throw the book at gun stores that knowingly allow a straw purchase.
Oh no! You couldn't do that! That would inevitably lead to door-to-door confiscations and Nazis!

The Nazis are already back, BTW. And they have guns.
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:26 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well there is a way to stop Straw Purchases, but gun owners would throw a fit.

Set up a blind database that has the buyer of a gun entered into it and also tracks change of ownership a bit like cars. Allow the police to access the data using the serial number of a weapon to locate the registered owner of any weapon they find in the possession of anyone that is not allowed to have a firearm, and if it was not reported stolen then throw the book at them both. Also throw the book at gun stores that knowingly allow a straw purchase.
Yea, that's registration, all right. It certainly wouldn't be fair to "throw the book" at gun stores because there's no way to prove they knew it was a straw purchase.

I don't believe any type of registration would ever pass either branch of Congress because anyone who voted for it would be out of office in most states.

BTW, maybe you don't know, but Illinois has what amounts to gun registration and the largest city in IL is the murder capital of the US.
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:30 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
This should not impact the responsible owners in any way more than similar rules already in place for owning a car.
Owning a car in the US is not a Constitutional Right, owning a firearm is.

The barriers you reference are used all over the world, but it's pretty expensive and obtrusive to have them everywhere. Not practical for a private business to be required to erect them.
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:31 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well there is a way to stop Straw Purchases, but gun owners would throw a fit.

Set up a blind database that has the buyer of a gun entered into it and also tracks change of ownership a bit like cars. Allow the police to access the data using the serial number of a weapon to locate the registered owner of any weapon they find in the possession of anyone that is not allowed to have a firearm, and if it was not reported stolen then throw the book at them both. Also throw the book at gun stores that knowingly allow a straw purchase.
We've got one, at least for N.F.A. weapons and devices, The National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/at...ter-3/download

With less than one million registered items to properly record and track, their database is in bad shape - from an OIG survey of ATF compliance inspectors - The agents tasked with checking the licensed dealers:

https://armsandthelaw.com/BATF%20OIG...NFA%20best.pdf

Analysis of Q12 Affect IOI - How do errors and discrepancies in NFRTR inventory reports affect your ability to carry out compliance inspections?

Responses to Q12 (not mutually exclusive)
• Out of 297 total responses:

o 53 indicated there was no disruption to the inspection process.

o 75 indicated the errors called into question the accuracy of the information
from the NFRTR.


o 127 stated their efficiency was affected and the inspection took more time
to perform.

o 48 stated it was more difficult to plan and complete the inspection.

o 12 stated follow-up work was required after the inspection.

o 32 indicated N/A, or they had not encountered errors in this situation.

o 1 stated the only errors he had encountered were on the part of the FFL.


From the open-ended comments, and remember, these are ATF agents making these statements:

“Errors and discrepancies make ATF, as a whole, look inept. These are extremely important records and our own NFA Branch can't even get it right. It takes extra hour(s) to rectify these problems, and sometimes we find out 1-2 years down the road on the next inspection that the corrections we forwarded to the NFA Branch aren't even taken care of by
the next inspection.”


“It is hard to verify any NFA inventory when the "official" NFRTR record is inaccurate.I have had to rely on the licensee's records over the NFRTR record in the past.

If ATF can't keep the records straight on less than a million registrations the possibility of a successful program for 300 million + firearms is slim to none.

Canada decided to got the total registration route and they were smart enough to call it a day when the costs kept going up even before the program was fully implemented.

The 4473 form system works, and if all transfers were required to go through an FFL the idea of a more tractable tracing program would be in effect without trying to build some central registry system at the fed. level. In any case, it's the individual States business, not the feds.
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:34 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Look, if you want to blow yourself up - go for it. If instead you blow yourself up and burn my house down in the process ...
Get a grip! The discussion and reference was about firearms, not explosives. There is nothing about building a firearm or silencer or other accessories that's a danger to anyone nearby. Please pay attention before responding.
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Old 5th November 2017, 11:47 PM   #179
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Good guy with a gun did intervene

Looks like a nearby resident did intervene. Just not soon enough to prevent the slaughter, but likely prevented further bloodshed...

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us...ion/index.html
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:08 AM   #180
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Honestly not sure how much blood was actually left in the church to shed by that point.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:17 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Jeez, Vixen, get something right for once. All Saints' Day is 1st November. And the day before is, get this, "All Hallows' Eve", a.k.a. Hallowe'en.
You are in the wrong. All Saints Day service is on the first Sunday after Reformation Day.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:20 AM   #182
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Ex-forces:


Quote:
Devin Patrick Kelley walked into the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs, dressed in full combat gear, and began shooting, according to local law enforcement sources.

Kelley, 26, of New Braunfels, a suburb of San Antonio, was killed after a brief foot chase into Guadalupe County, according Guadalupe County Sheriff’s Office spokesman Robert Murphy. But it’s still unclear if the gunman shot himself or was taken down by authorities.

San Antonio police raided Kelley’s home on Sunday evening, with K9 and bomb squad units. Kelley, who was reportedly married, had recently posted a photo of an AR-15 style gun on his Facebook page with the caption: ‘She’s a bad b***h.’
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:21 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Gun addicts? That’s interesting.

But I don’t think you understand, giving up my guns isn’t going to make me safer. The government coming for them, isn’t going to make me safer.
The facts say otherwise.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:22 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Some reports this perp was an alt left wing Antifa member.
And?
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:22 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The facts say otherwise.
Facts don't matter, especially when they contradict "the truth!!"
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:25 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm fairly certain that gun possession by a dishonorably discharged veteran (if he was) is illegal unless their civil rights are restored. This would mean there is no "entirely legal route of buying from a dealer at a gun show".
If the murderer had bought the gun at a gun show will that now mean the gun seller will be prosecuted?
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:27 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And?
If he was antifa, then that means guns aren't the issue because of reasons....
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:28 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It is legal to build and possess bombs; what are you getting at?
Really you resort to such an answer?
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:38 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If you violate the conditions of the BG Check card and void it then when the police were dealing with that they could also remove any fire arms from the premises, not that hard to put in place. It's supposed to be done now, it's just a matter of making sure it is enforced.



Selling a gun to someone without a BG Card would be illegal, they get caught they get jailed.



So does proper enforcement of the current rules with a little bit extra added.



Like a BG Check Card and enforcement of the current laws.
But the police would only be able to remove guns they know about or can find. If you have a system that can remove guns if for instance someone is convicted of an assault then you need to know what guns they had so you can remove them. I don't see why having each firearm registered with the police or other authority is onerous and it seems a very practical approach to me.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:44 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
If he was antifa, then that means guns aren't the issue because of reasons....
I'm of the view in the USA it is not the number of guns that are the issue but the culture in regards to guns. We have a similar problem in the UK at the moment with knives and certain parts of our society.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:46 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If the murderer had bought the gun at a gun show will that now mean the gun seller will be prosecuted?
Yes, if the FFL either did not do a NICS check or if he ignored the results he will be prosecuted. That's assuming the idgit was prohibited. If he wasn't he should have been due to the domestic violence conviction.
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Old 6th November 2017, 12:56 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
if (WHITE_DUDE) goto DO_NOT_POLITICIZE

Nothing to see here, carry on.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:10 AM   #193
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Remember: this is the price of freedom. These deaths, as countless others, are an acceptable cost to pay for so that gun nuts can play around with their toys.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:14 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I manufacture (I'm a maker, there is a difference) firearms in my garage. It is normal here.
As are mass shootings apparently. Maybe they are related somehow?
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:07 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
People will always die in car accidents. Therefore, what is the point of ABS brakes, seat belts, air bags, guard rails, tempered glass, licensing and registration, street lighting and all this other nonsense trying to prevent something we cannot stop?
These false equivalences always pop up in threads like this. This has been covered time and time again, along with swimming pools, golf clubs and paper cuts. A ridiculous argument.

You can prevent gun massacres like this. You just don't want to.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:31 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm of the view in the USA it is not the number of guns that are the issue but the culture in regards to guns. We have a similar problem in the UK at the moment with knives and certain parts of our society.
I don't agree. It is the sheer number of guns and how easily accessible they are. The USA does not seem to have more violent crimes, they are similar to other countries. However, the violence escalates to gun homicides much more often and I think it is because of the presence of guns. The UK may have a problem with knives, but imagine how much more severe the problem would be if guns were more accessible.

Also, guns make suicide much more successful, more than most other methods.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:34 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Remember: this is the price of freedom. These deaths, as countless others, are an acceptable cost to pay for so that gun nuts can play around with their toys.
And toys are exactly what they are to most gun owners.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:35 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
These false equivalences always pop up in threads like this. This has been covered time and time again, along with swimming pools, golf clubs and paper cuts. A ridiculous argument.

You can prevent gun massacres like this. You just don't want to.
Personally I doubt whether they can be prevented altogether, but I think that the number of incidents, frequency and number of casualties can be reduced significantly.

That said, one of the things that has changed in my 15 years on the board is that I no longer think that it's just a matter of controlling access to guns. Like Darat I think that there is a cultural dimension to this which, combined with easy access to guns results in the unusually high death toll in the US.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:40 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't agree. It is the sheer number of guns and how easily accessible they are. The USA does not seem to have more violent crimes, they are similar to other countries. However, the violence escalates to gun homicides much more often and I think it is because of the presence of guns. The UK may have a problem with knives, but imagine how much more severe the problem would be if guns were more accessible.

Also, guns make suicide much more successful, more than most other methods.
I agree with Darat and tend to disagree with you. I think that US gun culture for example sees handguns as a useful tool for home defence. I think that's pretty unusual in the developed world. IMO the US also has a much higher incidence of "shooting for fun" as opposed to hunting or specifically target shooting. There's absolutely nothing inherently wrong with that but it does tend to mean that people view guns and recreational tools which can be used whenever practicable (with resultant levels of reckless and careless use) as opposed to life-threatening devices which should be handled with respect and stored securely.

My Brother-in-Law is keen on exercising his second amendment rights and actively uses guns to "protect" his family. I'd be much more sanguine about visiting him and his family if he treated his guns with the same care and circumspection with which he treats his chainsaw.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:42 AM   #200
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If that is his gun he liked his Magpul gear.
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