ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags shooting incidents , Texas incidents

Reply
Old 6th November 2017, 09:21 AM   #321
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well they are rarely stated exactly like this. Gun control will have some effect for sure. But it's clear that even now there is black market with guns, and it won't vanish overnight. Also similar attacks by using different means are common in countries with tight gun control.
Maybe next time try to actually bring up some counter arguments.
(emphasis added)


I'll bet you will find that an awful lot of people will refuse to agree with the highlighted statement.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:22 AM   #322
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 22,980
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
What part of the article you linked to supports your claim.

This part says he was buying the rifle illegally; he lied on the form 4473 if what I read about his domestic violence history is true.
If you can get around a background check simply by lying on the form then perhaps the background check needs to be bolstered somewhat.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
ETA; It seems the news reports can't really agree on the perp's criminal history.
....but as you say, until the full circumstances are know we are just speculating.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:26 AM   #323
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 22,980
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I'm not saying 'as common as in US'. By common I mean nobody really is surprised anymore, when it happens.
Which are these countries in the developed world where mass shootings aren't surprising ?

AFAIK anywhere in Western Europe, any mass shooting would be headline news for days.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:32 AM   #324
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Well, whatever showed up on the LTC background check that caused the denial should presumably also have been on the background check for the rifle purchase, and also caused a denial.
Depends on if they both used the same standards. And if there is any personal discretion involved in the process of approval of LTC.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:34 AM   #325
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Which are these countries in the developed world where mass shootings aren't surprising ?

AFAIK anywhere in Western Europe, any mass shooting would be headline news for days.
In any of them it would also have been the deadliest mass shooting of the season too.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:37 AM   #326
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 11,969
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Arcade22 implied that mass shootings are related to the legal non-violent activities in my garage.


What am I excluding?


I posted in this thread about making and registering firearms IAW federal law; firearms of the type which are very rarely associated with any violent crime at all. But somehow he has decided to connect me to mass shootings.
I think (though obviously Arcade22 can speak for himself) that you are reading more into Arcade22's comment than was meant. You said that home manufacture of guns "is normal here", and Arcade22 said that mass shootings are also 'normal' in the USA, and speculated that there may be a connection.

I do not think that he meant that you were in any way connected to mass shootings, just that there may be a connection between a culture where there is a mass shooting almost every day of the year and a culture where home manufacture of guns is normal.

He might be wrong in seeing a connection, but you seem to be seeing a personal element in his post which I do not see.
__________________
Not to put too fine a point on it, say I'm the only bee in your bonnet. Make a little birdhouse in your soul.

Vodka kills salmonella and all other enemies of freedom for sure - Nationalcosmopolitan
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:40 AM   #327
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Maaselkä Mielessäni
Posts: 11,175
Why does Donald Trump think the killer, Kelley, is 'mentally ill'?

How is that valid? He could just be 'mean'.
__________________
“Nyt, kun Karjalan kansa jälleen nousee ja sarastaa Suomen uusi huomenn.”

- Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:42 AM   #328
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 19,150
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Depends on if they both used the same standards. And if there is any personal discretion involved in the process of approval of LTC.
"Shall Issue" as far as I know. Personal discretion should not apply.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:42 AM   #329
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why does Donald Trump think the killer, Kelley, is 'mentally ill'?
Because he is white. When white people do this they are mentally ill, when brown people do this they are terrorists. As he was not brown he must have been mentally ill. QED.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:44 AM   #330
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
"Shall Issue" as far as I know. Personal discretion should not apply.
And it seems that it might have some additional restrictions.

" number of factors may make individuals ineligible to obtain a license, such as: felony convictions, some misdemeanor convictions, including charges that resulted in probation or deferred adjudication; certain pending criminal charges; chemical or alcohol dependency; certain types of psychological diagnoses, and protective or restraining orders. The state eligibility requirements can be found in GC §411.172. The federal firearms disqualifiers can be found in 18 USC 44 §922."

https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/faqs/index.htm

So his misdemeanor convictions might disqualify in texas while not disqualifying to own firearms.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:46 AM   #331
Elagabalus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,790
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Coyotes have even returned to suburbs and cities in the USA /DERAIL
And wild hogs are not shot on sight, the owner of the land where they reside charges a hefty fee so you can hunt them on his property. /FURTHER DERAIL.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:48 AM   #332
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,509
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If you can get around a background check simply by lying on the form then perhaps the background check needs to be bolstered somewhat.
The bkgd check (NICS) is supposed to prevent that kind of thing.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:48 AM   #333
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 21,133
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because he is white. When white people do this they are mentally ill, when brown people do this they are terrorists. As he was not brown he must have been mentally ill. QED.
What shade of brown though?

African brown = Gang Banger
Middle Eastern brown = Terrorist
Hispanic Brown = Bad Hombre
Bi-Racial = Confusing. Label TBD
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:49 AM   #334
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because he is white. When white people do this they are mentally ill, when brown people do this they are terrorists. As he was not brown he must have been mentally ill. QED.
Taking "brown people" out of the equation for now, are you asserting that he wasn't mentally ill and this is simply a rhetorical device?

If yes, then why do you think he calmly walked in to a church and killed 26 people?

If no, then why shouldn't people state that it's quite probably a large part of the reason he calmly walked in to a church and killed 26 people. Why shouldn't anybody, even POTUS make such an observation?

Last edited by bluesjnr; 6th November 2017 at 09:52 AM.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:52 AM   #335
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why does Donald Trump think the killer, Kelley, is 'mentally ill'?

How is that valid? He could just be 'mean'.
At this point in time (IMO) it is the best and most rational answer until we know more.

Anybody "mean" enough to callously kill 26 men, women and children must be in some way mentally ill.

Or do you have a better answer?
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:53 AM   #336
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Taking "brown people" out of the equation for now, are you asserting that he wasn't mentally ill and this is simply a rhetorical device?
It is used as a rhetorical device. It is used to pretend that terrorist attacks by white people are not a problem in the US because when you get them they are mentally ill, while clearly non white people are motivated by toxic ideology.
Quote:
If yes, then why do you think he calmly walked in to a church and killed 26 people?
No idea, but blaming mentally ill only helps the real problems from being addressed. Like domestic violence and gun ownership which is a real indicator for these kinds of shootings.

As for him being mentally ill, ok what diagnosis do you think he had?
Quote:
If no, then why shouldn't people state that it's quite probably a large part of the reason he calmly walked in to a church and killed 26 people. Why shouldn't anybody, even POTUS make such an observation?
So what diagnosis does the president think he had?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:53 AM   #337
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 19,150
"The Denver Post reports court records indicate someone was granted a protection order against Kelley on Jan. 15, 2015, also in El Paso County."
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:55 AM   #338
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 19,150
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And it seems that it might have some additional restrictions.

" number of factors may make individuals ineligible to obtain a license, such as: felony convictions, some misdemeanor convictions, including charges that resulted in probation or deferred adjudication; certain pending criminal charges; chemical or alcohol dependency; certain types of psychological diagnoses, and protective or restraining orders. The state eligibility requirements can be found in GC §411.172. The federal firearms disqualifiers can be found in 18 USC 44 §922."

https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/faqs/index.htm

So his misdemeanor convictions might disqualify in texas while not disqualifying to own firearms.
If DPS is wondering why he was allowed to buy a rifle, I have to assume they know the laws...
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:56 AM   #339
Imhotep
Muse
 
Imhotep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
What shade of brown though?
Bi-Racial = Confusing. Label TBD
This will be our salvation if nothing else works. It's going to take some time though...
Imhotep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:57 AM   #340
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
At this point in time (IMO) it is the best and most rational answer until we know more.

Anybody "mean" enough to callously kill 26 men, women and children must be in some way mentally ill.
Cool so Chris Kyle was insane and shouldn't have been allowed near guns. His kill count combined with compulsive lying would be a great mark against him.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 10:22 AM   #341
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,683
Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The way I heard it, Obama planned to confiscate all the guns from white people and implement Sharia law.
So much for your unnamed sources.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 10:25 AM   #342
Dr.Sid
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 1,277
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Which are these countries in the developed world where mass shootings aren't surprising ?

AFAIK anywhere in Western Europe, any mass shooting would be headline news for days.
I didn't say mass shooting. I said 'acts like these', I meant attacks by any mean where large number of people is killed / wounded. And 'headline for days' doesn't mean it will be surprising. And yes, I mean Western Europe. It's simply becoming norm.

Last edited by Dr.Sid; 6th November 2017 at 10:28 AM.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 10:51 AM   #343
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 17,381
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why does Donald Trump think the killer, Kelley, is 'mentally ill'?

How is that valid? He could just be 'mean'.
Anyone can make that claim without evidence....and often do.....including here
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 10:53 AM   #344
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,565
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
We should skip this silly investigation of what happened.
RT and Alt-right bloggers knew within minutes that the shooter was an Antifa liberal Atheist.
It's almost suspicious how well informed they are.
Lol

It could have easily been seen if they didn’t take this slobs Facebook page down. Just another leftist doing what he does.
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 10:57 AM   #345
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,565
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Domestic Abuse and gun violence are significantly correlated. Atheism and gun violence aren't.
Well, obviously leftists are in a hurry to change that stat. Groups like Antifa are new in their zeal for violence. Combine that with the five stages of grief from emotional leftists and here we are.
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:04 AM   #346
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,743
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Taking "brown people" out of the equation for now, are you asserting that he wasn't mentally ill and this is simply a rhetorical device?

If yes, then why do you think he calmly walked in to a church and killed 26 people?

If no, then why shouldn't people state that it's quite probably a large part of the reason he calmly walked in to a church and killed 26 people. Why shouldn't anybody, even POTUS make such an observation?
Speaking personally only, possibly because "SICK", "SAD", "BAD" seems to be his go to for everything from not 100% agreeing with him to mass murder. The impression given is the actual events have little if any bearing on the the response (beyond "can it be blamed on foreigners").
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:15 AM   #347
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,728
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
There is a will to change gun laws in the USA, it's just that the NRA has a choke hold on those in government. Until the NRA loses power, these gun massacres will continue.
Change the laws to what though? I have previously pointed out that Texan CCW regulations are very similar to what helps to keep the UK etc safe. Could the entire of the USA agree to adopt those (or very similar) rules and only those rules? I doubt it, to the point I would say snowball in hells chance.

If repeated mass killings, including school children killing other school children does not change things, NOTHING WILL.

Get used to it. You need to learn to cope in the same way an amputee or someone with a an incurable illness has to learn to cope.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:22 AM   #348
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 22,980
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I didn't say mass shooting. I said 'acts like these', I meant attacks by any mean where large number of people is killed / wounded. And 'headline for days' doesn't mean it will be surprising. And yes, I mean Western Europe. It's simply becoming norm.
Utter rubbish. The press reaction means it's anything but.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:23 AM   #349
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is used as a rhetorical device. It is used to pretend that terrorist attacks by white people are not a problem in the US because when you get them they are mentally ill, while clearly non white people are motivated by toxic ideology.
In what way would this approach benefit the population? Why would the authorities or even the POTUS want to hide or fudge facts in clear evidence.

What difference does the name tag make?

The CT thread is that way ------->

Quote:
No idea, but blaming mentally ill only helps the real problems from being addressed. Like domestic violence and gun ownership which is a real indicator for these kinds of shootings.
I think the concept that somebody is "blaming" the mentally ill, broad brush, is where the wheels are coming off. It is not the fault of the mentally ill that you have mass shootings but it certainly is a factor that mentally ill people, along with other indicators commit this type of crime. I would posit that, outside of spur of the moment, single suspect crimes of passion, anybody who plans to kill one or more people in a culture where such an action is an absolute anathema must be mentally ill, even if only momentarily.

How anybody could attempt to make a case that an individual who murders 26 men, women and children is sane is beyond me?

I sense a political agenda at play and I have no dog in that fight.

Quote:
As for him being mentally ill, ok what diagnosis do you think he had?
I'm not in anyway able to diagnose him. Even if I were a suitably qualified individual, I couldn't do so without having assessed him. This doesn't disbar me from offering a perfectly reasonable reason of mental illness as a factor, perhaps the main factor in this turn of events.

Quote:
So what diagnosis does the president think he had?
Behave yourself.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:30 AM   #350
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Cool so Chris Kyle was insane and shouldn't have been allowed near guns. His kill count combined with compulsive lying would be a great mark against him.

Chris Kyle was employed by the military and was acting under the auspices of his government whilst engaged in military warfare (the justification for which we needn't get into).

You are comparing apples with oranges making this one of the worst "gotchas" I have encountered.

bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:36 AM   #351
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Chris Kyle was employed by the military and was acting under the auspices of his government whilst engaged in military warfare (the justification for which we needn't get into).

You are comparing apples with oranges making this one of the worst "gotchas" I have encountered.

Not when he was killing all those people after Katrina. He racked up at least a dozen then.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:37 AM   #352
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
In what way would this approach benefit the population? Why would the authorities or even the POTUS want to hide or fudge facts in clear evidence.

What difference does the name tag make?

The CT thread is that way ------->
Now suggesting racism exists is a conspiracy theory?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:40 AM   #353
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 7,360
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
How about this idea....

You want to own or buy guns and ammo, then you apply at the local Police Station/NRA Office/Gunshop, and have a Federal Background Check Card, valid for 5 years unless the conditions are violated. The local police keep a record of who has a currently valid card so they are aware if they have to deal with that person in a way that invalidates the card, that they can remove it for violation of the conditions. The conditions are already spelled out in the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Then whenever you want to trade, sell, buy, etc weapons, all you have to do is show your valid BG Check card and away you go. No card, no sale. This would prevent the whole private sale and trade show no BG checks loophole, and save gun owners money because they don't have to get a BG check every time they want to but a new gun, rather it's always sitting in their back pocket.
The NRA and other gun rights groups will fight tooth and nail anything that smacks of registration, based on the theory that any form of registration will facilitate confiscation if at some later date the government decides to go that route. For those people, I think they would prefer the inconvenience and expense of getting a background check for every purpose to having the government know who has guns if they should decide to confiscate them.

Personally, I'm all for licensing, registration and mandatory safety training for anyone who wants to own a gun.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:46 AM   #354
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now suggesting racism exists is a conspiracy theory?
What is racist about attributing mental illness to this tragedy?
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:48 AM   #355
portlandatheist
Master Poster
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,702
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because he is white. When white people do this they are mentally ill, when brown people do this they are terrorists. As he was not brown he must have been mentally ill. QED.
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
What shade of brown though?

African brown = Gang Banger
Middle Eastern brown = Terrorist
Hispanic Brown = Bad Hombre
Bi-Racial = Confusing. Label TBD
This is such nonsense. Terrorism is defined as "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." There is no evidence that this attack was politically motivated. When an attack is politically motivated, we call it terrorism regardless of the skin color of the attacker. We call the Oklahoma bombings terrorism. We call 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack terrorism and so on. If we are going to call mass shootings "terrorism" regardless of motive then why not also call it a "hate crime"? These things have real meanings. We treat hate crimes differently because of how they affect and intimidate and coerce the people still living. It greatly expands the set of victims. If this guy did this act on the behalf of a political group with the implicit threat to other church goers that they better stop going to Baptists churches or this fate might happen to them too, then we'd call it an act of terrorism. Similarly with a hate crimes.
Can you provide some examples where we labeled a shooter as a terrorist or not a terrorist based not on the shooter's motivations or affiliations but instead based on their skin color?
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:50 AM   #356
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not when he was killing all those people after Katrina. He racked up at least a dozen then.
Puleease.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:55 AM   #357
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
This is such nonsense. Terrorism is defined as "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." There is no evidence that this attack was politically motivated. When an attack is politically motivated, we call it terrorism regardless of the skin color of the attacker. We call the Oklahoma bombings terrorism. We call 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack terrorism and so on. If we are going to call mass shootings "terrorism" regardless of motive then why not also call it a "hate crime"? These things have real meanings. We treat hate crimes differently because of how they affect and intimidate and coerce the people still living. It greatly expands the set of victims. If this guy did this act on the behalf of a political group with the implicit threat to other church goers that they better stop going to Baptists churches or this fate might happen to them too, then we'd call it an act of terrorism. Similarly with a hate crimes.
Can you provide some examples where we labeled a shooter as a terrorist or not a terrorist based not on the shooter's motivations or affiliations but instead based on their skin color?
It's clearly an anti-Trump thing. It never fails to surprise me how low some people will stoop.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:56 AM   #358
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 5,910
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
It's clearly an anti-Trump thing. It never fails to surprise me how low some people will stoop.
Maybe the US shouldn't have elected him then?
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:57 AM   #359
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,683
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
[...]
Personally, I'm all for licensing, registration and mandatory safety training for anyone who wants to own a gun.
Please elaborate on the licensing and registration. I've had several safety training and defensive training courses. I've had background checks with no problem. I passed the requirements for a handgun carry permit (but I don't carry).

What next?
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 11:59 AM   #360
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Maybe the US shouldn't have elected him then?
Something I've often pondered myself. The will of the people an' all that.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.