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Old 16th February 2017, 08:15 AM   #41
sunmaster14
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
What do you call lying to your boss and lying to the american people?
I meant with respect to his call to the ambassador. Although it might not have been clear, I meant to focus only on the call itself and to exclude any lying he did about it afterwards.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:20 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I've missed seeing an answer to this question:

How did Justice known the content of Flynn's telephone conversations with the Russian Ambassador? Did it come from the FBI? Do we have active, legal investigations of sitting Cabinet members?
Probably tapping the Russian phones. "Routine surveillance of foreign calls" or something like that.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:24 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Fine. No problem. Flynn did nothing wrong. Obama......is yesterday's news so who cares?


But, why was Flynn fired? What's up with that? You can repeat the talking points you heard on the radio today. You seem to have hit all of them except the indignity at leaking information. So, why was he fired?

Oh, I guess you missed one talking point, because Rush Limbaugh asked the same question today. He was a bit miffed at The Donald for firing Flynn. Flynn did nothing wrong. Flynn was the target of unfair attacks. So, Donald Trump fired him.

How does that work? Either Flynn actually did something wrong, or Donald Trump throws his friends under the bus when they become liabilities. I don't see a third possible interpretation.
He was thrown under the bus by Donald Trump because he became a liability rather than an asset. It's as simple as that. You seem to be implying that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a bad thing at all, as long as there is a clear justification for it (and there obviously is).

I've often heard it said that the key to being a successful manager is hiring good people. I never thought this was particularly insightful, except for the fact that it's important for managers to be willing to hire people who are smarter than themselves (and some bad managers are unwilling to do that).

Recently, I heard that the key to being a successful manager is firing bad people. That makes a lot more sense to me. You can never really be sure the person you're hiring will work out. But once somebody is in the job, you know. Being willing to fire somebody who is not working out is hard to do (at least for me), but I think it really is the key to success. Trump is clearly able to do this. It's a good sign rather than a bad sign in my view.

All of that being said, I think Flynn's firing will prove to be a Pyrrhic victory for the anti-Trump forces inside the intelligence community. Flynn is gone, but the leaks to the media will be investigated. I expect a purge is on the way. Maybe even some show trials.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:26 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
He was thrown under the bus by Donald Trump because he became a liability rather than an asset. It's as simple as that. You seem to be implying that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a bad thing at all, as long as there is a clear justification for it (and there obviously is).

I've often heard it said that the key to being a successful manager is hiring good people. I never thought this was particularly insightful, except for the fact that it's important for managers to be willing to hire people who are smarter than themselves (and some bad managers are unwilling to do that).

Recently, I heard that the key to being a successful manager is firing bad people. That makes a lot more sense to me. You can never really be sure the person you're hiring will work out. But once somebody is in the job, you know. Being willing to fire somebody who is not working out is hard to do (at least for me), but I think it really is the key to success. Trump is clearly able to do this. It's a good sign rather than a bad sign in my view.

All of that being said, I think Flynn's firing will prove to be a Pyrrhic victory for the anti-Trump forces inside the intelligence community. Flynn is gone, but the leaks to the media will be investigated. I expect a purge is on the way. Maybe even some show trials.
But trump still has every confidence in him and it was the media that fired him.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:36 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I think they were tapping the Russian phones. Flynn called them. Which is really stupid when you think about it.
A General doesn't know that the USA taps Russian Diplomats phones.
Yeah, I haven't heard the talking heads make this excellent point. The sheer ineptitude of Trump and his buffoon brigade is mind-boggling.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:36 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But trump still has every confidence in him and it was the media that fired him.
Gone is gone. And Trump's complaints that it was media leaks that did Flynn in doesn't hurt Trump in my opinion. If anything, it justifies an investigation into the leaks and provides yet more justification (if any was needed) for Trump to rail against the biased mainstream media.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:39 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Yeah, I haven't heard the talking heads make this excellent point. The sheer ineptitude of Trump and his buffoon brigade is mind-boggling.
I have little doubt that Flynn knew the US surveilled communications sent and received by the Russian ambassador. He probably didn't think that there were that many people out to get him in the intelligence community that they would make a big issue out of chatting about sanctions, or, more likely, that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong in the first place.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:39 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
He was thrown under the bus by Donald Trump because he became a liability rather than an asset. It's as simple as that. You seem to be implying that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a bad thing at all, as long as there is a clear justification for it (and there obviously is).

I've often heard it said that the key to being a successful manager is hiring good people. I never thought this was particularly insightful, except for the fact that it's important for managers to be willing to hire people who are smarter than themselves (and some bad managers are unwilling to do that).

Recently, I heard that the key to being a successful manager is firing bad people. That makes a lot more sense to me. You can never really be sure the person you're hiring will work out. But once somebody is in the job, you know. Being willing to fire somebody who is not working out is hard to do (at least for me), but I think it really is the key to success. Trump is clearly able to do this. It's a good sign rather than a bad sign in my view.

All of that being said, I think Flynn's firing will prove to be a Pyrrhic victory for the anti-Trump forces inside the intelligence community. Flynn is gone, but the leaks to the media will be investigated. I expect a purge is on the way. Maybe even some show trials.
Your theory based on your alternative facts spins a nice story. But according to a Mr D Trump Mr Flynn was doing a great job so unless you are saying Trump was lying then Mr Flynn was working out. It would seem Mr Trump being the special snowflake he is couldn't stand up to criticisms from the media he so despises.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:40 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Yeah, I haven't heard the talking heads make this excellent point. The sheer ineptitude of Trump and his buffoon brigade is mind-boggling.
It's the incompetence combined with unearned arrogance that I find at times quite astonishing.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:43 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I think they were tapping the Russian phones. Flynn called them. Which is really stupid when you think about it.
A General doesn't know that the USA taps Russian Diplomats phones.
Or perhaps the Russians leaked the information.... Which as we know is one of the jobs Trump delegates to them!
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:53 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Gone is gone. And Trump's complaints that it was media leaks that did Flynn in doesn't hurt Trump in my opinion. If anything, it justifies an investigation into the leaks and provides yet more justification (if any was needed) for Trump to rail against the biased mainstream media.
Yep lying is only a problem if you get caught. If Pence never knew that this guy was a dishonest liar he would have continued to have full faith in him. Trump of course always expected him to be russia's tool and so isn't phased by this.
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:02 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I've missed seeing an answer to this question:

How did Justice known the content of Flynn's telephone conversations with the Russian Ambassador? Did it come from the FBI? Do we have active, legal investigations of sitting Cabinet members?
He wasn't a cabinet member but a member of the White House staff. And the phone calls were before the inauguration so he had no government position at all.

This Politifact article about Flynn's support of conspiracy theories is horrifying. He's an idiot.
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:11 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I've missed seeing an answer to this question:

How did Justice known the content of Flynn's telephone conversations with the Russian Ambassador? Did it come from the FBI? Do we have active, legal investigations of sitting Cabinet members?
If we don't already, we should. Many times it's important to know exactly how something went down. There's also the potential for outright abuse and corruption, e.g. the former head of the TSA becoming a highly-paid contractor for the company that makes those intrusive airport scanners he ordered into use.
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:13 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Trump of course always expected him to be russia's tool and so isn't phased by this.
You need to get a grip on reality. One does not devote over 30 years of their life and rise to the rank of Lieutenant General by being a traitor that you imply. Have you ever served a day in any military? What was your rank?

I get it that you don't like Trump, but these unjustified attacks on honorable men needs to stop now.

If he's convicted of anything I'll retract, but I think you are going to be disappointed.
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:26 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
You need to get a grip on reality. One does not devote over 30 years of their life and rise to the rank of Lieutenant General by being a traitor that you imply.
Flynn did. Being a general does not insulate one from going off the deep end, and Flynn, with his conspiracy theories and close ties with (and being paid by) Russia sure has.

Jerry Boykin is another former lieutenant general who's thrown himself off the cliff into la-la land.
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:29 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I've missed seeing an answer to this question:

How did Justice known the content of Flynn's telephone conversations with the Russian Ambassador? Did it come from the FBI? Do we have active, legal investigations of sitting Cabinet members?
No, we have active surveillance of phone calls to Russian officials.

And Flynn was not a sitting cabinet member when the phone calls took place.
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:30 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
He was thrown under the bus by Donald Trump because he became a liability rather than an asset. It's as simple as that. You seem to be implying that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a bad thing at all, as long as there is a clear justification for it (and there obviously is).
But Trump has said the following:

A. Flynn was doing a great job.
B. Flynn was being treated unfairly by the media.
C. Flynn was fired by Trump.

Please, do whatever it is you Trump supporters do when you figure out what he's really thinking, and explain this for me. What was the fireable offense? Will unfair treatment by the media earn you a pink slip in Trump's White House?
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:46 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
So, you support illegal wiretapping?
I remember you going a lengthy tirade and rending garments defending the government's right to monitor us without warrants and how dare I besmirch the good name of the NSA by claiming their director lied.

Quote:
The first issue is that someone illegally wiretapped Flynn's phone calls. That is issue # 1. That is blatantly illegal activity.
And also not true. It was the Russian ambassador who was being recorded. Flynn should have known that.

Quote:
The second issue is what did Flynn discuss with the Russian Ambassador? If he did something illegal that needs to be investigated and disclosed.
This is actually the far more important issue

Quote:
It doesn't matter what your political orientation is, it's a matter of law.
Ya, now explain that to Congressional Republicans

Quote:
Flynn is not an idiot, so you don't need to speculate with wild abandon what the subject of his calls were.
He did not realize that the same intelligence agencies he coordinated with in the Pentagon were monitoring communications with diplomats from rival nations. He may not be an idiot, but he does a really good impression of one.

Quote:
It may be a futile effort, but it would sure be nice to have a friendlier relationship with Russia. That may not be possible. I don't know and neither do you.
Yes, but Trump seems be in a relationship with Putin like a prostitute with her pimp. That isn't "friendly".

Quote:
Priorities need to be in order, so as to get to the bottom of this whole affair. Otherwise you're pulling the same **** that you accuse the Republicans of in going after Clinton regarding Benghazi. At least there was evidence of blatant lying in that.
Ya, but the lying was done by the prosecutors.

Quote:
There is no evidence that anything discussed was illegal in this one. Just BS speculation by sore losers...
then why did Flynn have to lie to Pence and then resign?
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:48 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I meant with respect to his call to the ambassador. Although it might not have been clear, I meant to focus only on the call itself and to exclude any lying he did about it afterwards.
True, the call itself can't be illegal. But he wasn't fired for that, he was fired for his actions afterwards.
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Old 16th February 2017, 09:48 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I have little doubt that Flynn knew the US surveilled communications sent and received by the Russian ambassador. He probably didn't think that there were that many people out to get him in the intelligence community that they would make a big issue out of chatting about sanctions, or, more likely, that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong in the first place.

Or that he'd be protected by "Executive Privilege". Or a pardon

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Old 16th February 2017, 10:04 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I have little doubt that Flynn knew the US surveilled communications sent and received by the Russian ambassador. He probably didn't think that there were that many people out to get him in the intelligence community that they would make a big issue out of chatting about sanctions, or, more likely, that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong in the first place.
Flynn was the friggin 18th Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, for crying out loud!
If he didn't know that what he did was wrong, he is simply a waste of taxpayer money.
No, Flynn knew exactly what he was doing, and he thought he was untouchable.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:11 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
But Trump has said the following:

A. Flynn was doing a great job.
B. Flynn was being treated unfairly by the media.
C. Flynn was fired by Trump.

Please, do whatever it is you Trump supporters do when you figure out what he's really thinking, and explain this for me. What was the fireable offense? Will unfair treatment by the media earn you a pink slip in Trump's White House?
(A) is probably not a true statement. Trump has been known to utter non-true statements from time to time to suit his emotional needs of the moment.

In any case, it was clear that Flynn was attracting heat from both the intel community and the media. Getting rid of him cures a potentially big headache. It made sense. If you want to argue that Trump uttered some nonsensical stuff in relation to that, I'm not going to disagree. I don't think that Trump is unique in that respect, though. He's unique in many respects, but even a "normal" President often praises people while kicking them to the curb.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:13 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
True, the call itself can't be illegal. But he wasn't fired for that, he was fired for his actions afterwards.
As you can see above (Zaganza's post), not everybody believes that the call wasn't illegal, let alone couldn't be illegal.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:15 AM   #64
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According to Breitbart, it was Priebus who engineered to have Flynn fired.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ff-candidates/
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:21 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Trump has been known to utter non-true statements from time to time to suit his emotional needs of the moment.
I nominate this as the understatement of the century.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:21 AM   #66
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Maybe Trumps dunderhead associates shouldn't expect any privacy if they talk with foreign diplomats. Trump has said he knows more than anyone about information security so he should have told them to never discuss sensitive subjects with high profile people on the phone unless you can guarantee that no one is listing in. Making that guarantee is much harder than it sounds especially if you want to talk with high profile statesmen and officials like diplomats.

Edit: Flynn, and the Rest of Trump administration (including Trump), should've been fired for their lack of discretion and general incompetence.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:23 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Maybe Trumps dunderhead associates shouldn't expect any privacy if they talk with foreign diplomats. Trump has said he knows more than anyone about information security so he should have thought them to never discuss sensitive subjects with high profile people on the phone unless you can guarantee that no one is listing in. Making that guarantee is much harder than it sounds especially if you want to talk with high profile statesmen and officials like diplomats.
Rumor has it that Trump is still pissed that no one has shown him where the 'Cone of Silence' is and he can't twitter on his shoe phone.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:24 AM   #68
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I like that the Trump administration is pointing at the intelligence community as the source for the leak. I won't be surprised if the source of the leak is the Trump team, who knew about the issue before Pence went off to defend Flynn on all the Sunday shows. Or the source of the leak could be Russia, who certainly knew of the issue and knew that there were transcripts within the intelligence community.

Trump used to like leaks. And not just from prostitutes. Why the change of heart? Will he not love the next Snowden as much as the current one?
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:30 AM   #69
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It's sane government for America to maintain the appearance of friendly relations with Russia. Crimea always has been part of Russia, like Scotland is a part of the UK, and New Mexico is part of America. Sevastopol in the Crimea is an important Russian Naval base which any Russian president would not like to become a NATO naval base. It's what is known technically as knowing more about tactics than a novice in a nunnery.

My own feeling is that Flynn was fired for not supporting Al Qaeda groups in Syria, like the CIA, and for getting too close to the pedophile activities in high places mentioned in the Clinton emails. It's more likely that those emails were hacked, and leaked, by an American rather than the Russians as the mainstream media always insists. There is a bit of background to this in a British Daily Telegraph article from a few months ago:

Quote:
Nick Allen, washington
10 AUGUST 2016 • 11:55PM
Speculation was swirling in Washington about whether the murder of a young Democratic Party worker could be linked to last month's leaking of internal party emails.

Seth Rich, 27, was shot twice in the head in what appeared to be an attempted robbery near his home in a suburb of the US capital on July 10, but his belongings were not taken.

Two weeks later WikiLeaks, the website, published thousands of embarrassing internal emails which showed Democratic Party officials favouring Hillary Clinton over her rival Bernie Sanders.

The scandal led to the resignation of the party chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

What began as a conspiracy theory on the internet was pushed into the limelight this week when WikiLeaks put up a $20,000 reward for information leading to the conviction of Mr Rich's killer.


Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder, then appeared on Dutch television where he refused to confirm or deny that Mr Rich was a source.

Watch | Dame Vivienne Westwood reveals she visits 'incredible' Julian Assange every month
00:45
He said: "Whistle-blowers go to significant efforts to get us material and often take very significant risks. I’m suggesting that our sources take risks and they become concerned to see things occurring like that.

"We have to understand how high the stakes are in the United States and that our sources face serious risks."

In a statement Wikileaks added: "We treat threats towards any suspected WikiLeaks sources with extreme gravity.

"This should not be taken to imply that Seth Rich was a source to WikiLeaks or that his murder is connected to our publications. We hope our efforts will contribute to the family’s calls for information."

Mr Rich was a computer worker developing a way for voters to locate polling stations.

Joel Rich, the victim's father called the theories about his son's death "bizarre" and accused WikiLeaks of "playing a game".

A police spokesman in Washington said there was "no information at this time" to suggest a link between his death and any other investigation.

The Clinton campaign has suggested that Russia was behind the hacking and leaking of the internal Democratic Party emails.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:34 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It's sane government for America to maintain the appearance of friendly relations with Russia. Crimea always has been part of Russia, like Scotland is a part of the UK, and New Mexico is part of America. Sevastopol in the Crimea is an important Russian Naval base which any Russian president would not like to become a NATO naval base. It's what is known technically as knowing more about tactics than a novice in a nunnery.

My own feeling is that Flynn was fired for not supporting Al Qaeda groups in Syria, like the CIA, and for getting too close to the pedophile activities in high places mentioned in the Clinton emails. It's more likely that those emails were hacked, and leaked, by an American rather than the Russians as the mainstream media always insists. There is a bit of background to this in a British Daily Telegraph article from a few months ago:
Dude, if Flynn was taken out by Pizzagate that would be awesome.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:34 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It's sane government for America to maintain the appearance of friendly relations with Russia. Crimea always has been part of Russia, like Scotland is a part of the UK, and New Mexico is part of America. Sevastopol in the Crimea is an important Russian Naval base which any Russian president would not like to become a NATO naval base. It's what is known technically as knowing more about tactics than a novice in a nunnery.

My own feeling is that Flynn was fired for not supporting Al Qaeda groups in Syria, like the CIA, and for getting too close to the pedophile activities in high places mentioned in the Clinton emails. It's more likely that those emails were hacked, and leaked, by an American rather than the Russians as the mainstream media always insists. There is a bit of background to this in a British Daily Telegraph article from a few months ago:
Are you sure it's not because Flynn has photos of bigfoot riding Nessie and threatened to publish them?
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:35 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I like that the Trump administration is pointing at the intelligence community as the source for the leak. I won't be surprised if the source of the leak is the Trump team, who knew about the issue before Pence went off to defend Flynn on all the Sunday shows. Or the source of the leak could be Russia, who certainly knew of the issue and knew that there were transcripts within the intelligence community.
CNN and the New York Times said that the information came from four current or former US intelligence officials. Although I'm not a fan of either media outlet, I doubt that they lied about their sources.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:41 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
... My own feeling is that Flynn was fired for not supporting Al Qaeda groups in Syria, like the CIA, and for getting too close to the pedophile activities in high places mentioned in the Clinton emails.
Sure, these musings are nuttier than an almond orchard. But let's pretend you're right.

What does this say about Trump?
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:41 AM   #74
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If Dennis Rodman didn't get caught under the Logan act, I doubt Flynn will.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:45 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Gone is gone. And Trump's complaints that it was media leaks that did Flynn in doesn't hurt Trump in my opinion. If anything, it justifies an investigation into the leaks and provides yet more justification (if any was needed) for Trump to rail against the biased mainstream media.
It absolutely hurts Trump when he says:

Quote:
"We are going to find the leakers and they are going to pay a big price"
And exactly what has he said to defend himself from the actual content of the leaks? Bupkiss. Nada. Nothing.

So the leakers will pay a big price. President Trump will not be questioned. We're all going to bow down to President Trump.

Are you *********** people out of your *********** mind???

YES OR NO if you have the balls:

Do you want this country run by a dictator?
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Old 16th February 2017, 11:01 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
It absolutely hurts Trump when he says:
Noahfence, but you haven't exactly been bang on with your predictions about what hurts Trump.

Quote:
And exactly what has he said to defend himself from the actual content of the leaks? Bupkiss. Nada. Nothing.

So the leakers will pay a big price. President Trump will not be questioned. We're all going to bow down to President Trump.

Are you *********** people out of your *********** mind???

YES OR NO if you have the balls:

Do you want this country run by a dictator?
Of course I don't want a dictator. But I also don't want unelected people I never heard of before to circumscribe the legitimate powers of the President just because they think he's a dick. Like that idiot judge in Seattle, for instance.
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Old 16th February 2017, 11:19 AM   #77
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Watergate 2.0 folks.
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Old 16th February 2017, 11:19 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Noahfence, but you haven't exactly been bang on with your predictions about what hurts Trump.



Of course I don't want a dictator. But I also don't want unelected people I never heard of before to circumscribe the legitimate powers of the President just because they think he's a dick. Like that idiot judge in Seattle, for instance.
But unelected people you have heard of, like Steve Bannon, are okay?

Stop blaming the judge for a poorly thought out EO. If they had done it correctly, there would not have been the resulting chaos and the EO would have stood. Trump first month has been very sloppy. Maybe they've learned their lesson as the flow of EOs has stopped and maybe they are doing their due diligence before just shoving things out the door. Then again, that's not Trump's style.
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Old 16th February 2017, 11:20 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Noahfence, but you haven't exactly been bang on with your predictions about what hurts Trump.
Oh that's adorable. You think we're done?



Quote:
Of course I don't want a dictator. But I also don't want unelected people I never heard of before to circumscribe the legitimate powers of the President just because they think he's a dick. Like that idiot judge in Seattle, for instance.
Or the guy he wants to investigate the Intelligence Community, yes?

So you don't want a dictator, but you're ok with this giant turd removing all protections designed to prevent it - all the while sounding exactly like a dictator in both deed and word.

Amazing level of cognitive dissonance. You faking this whole thing aren't you? This support of Trump.
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Old 16th February 2017, 11:21 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Noahfence, but you haven't exactly been bang on with your predictions about what hurts Trump.



Of course I don't want a dictator. But I also don't want unelected people I never heard of before to circumscribe the legitimate powers of the President just because they think he's a dick. Like that idiot judge in Seattle, for instance.
You seem to want a President whose word is law. Seems to be that the difference between that and a dictator is a matter of semantics.

And you total ignoring of the whole question of what Trump's exact relations with Putin and Russia is astounding.
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