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Old 21st February 2020, 03:08 PM   #41
dudalb
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I see someone just proved our points about Bernie Bros.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:15 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No President has lead the Executive Branch, commanded the Armed Forces, or represented the United States as well as Trump has trolled the Left. And make no mistake that is what he was elected to do. Trump won 2020 an hour into election night 2016 when the first video of a crying college liberal with pink hair and a "Gender is Fluid" t-shirt was broadcast on CNN.
This.


And it has been a problem for Democrats for a while. To win, it's important for the nominee to denounce at least some aspect of the extreme left, so that this doesn't work.

They have to have the Sister Soulja moment, or be willing to denounce the Reverend Wright.

And even then there's the uphill climb due to the economy, but it's a start.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:23 PM   #43
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If Democrats would get behind the nominee, and it's increasingly clear who that's going to be, many of these problems would look smaller.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:23 PM   #44
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And I think the Bernie Bros whole "Bernie will excite large numbers of voters who have not voted before to come out" is just the "Lost Tribe" school of politics under different labelling.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:24 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
If Democrats would get behind the nominee, and it's increasingly clear who that's going to be, many of these problems would look smaller.
Not really.
It all depends on a small group of voters in a few swing states. and I submit Bernie will not appeal to them at all.
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Last edited by dudalb; 21st February 2020 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:27 PM   #46
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And If Bernie shold not get the nomination, I wonder if the Bernie Bros will stick to their "Party Unity" statement.
And, frankly, we have just seen blind party loyalty at work with the GOP in the Senate, and I don't want any more of it. It's bad, no matter which party indulges in it.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I think the Bernie Bros whole "Bernie will excite large numbers of voters who have not voted before to come out" is just the "Lost Tribe" school of politics under different labelling.
Again, it's not so much attracting large non-voters to come out and vote, (although we shouldn't rule that out; think of the significant chunk of Sanders voters who, according to one poll anyway, say they won't vote for a different nominee)
but that Democratic and Independent voters would vote for Sanders regardless of the labels thrown his way. He offsets some of the socialist baggage with his honesty and fighting spirit. Voters are superficial enough (or reasonable enough) to look past that in the general.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:32 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And If Bernie shold not get the nomination, I wonder if the Bernie Bros will stick to their "Party Unity" statement.
And, frankly, we have just seen blind party loyalty at work with the GOP in the Senate, and I don't want any more of it. It's bad, no matter which party indulges in it.
If the Bernie Bros are who you think they are, they were never seated and secured in the party unity train. The party unity calls from the Bernie Bros were more a shot at Tom Perez and DNC bosses who urge party unity whenever it's their favored incumbents and candidates and drop it when it involves progressives who rock the boat.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Former Goldman Sachs CEO and lifelong Democrat Lloyd Blankfein told the Financial Times in an interview published Friday that he could have an easier time voting to reelect President Donald Trump than for Sen. Bernie Sanders, should the latter secure the Democratic nomination for president.




Sanders replied: I welcome the hatred of the crooks who destroyed our economy.


This is one of the major issues I have with Bernie. He doesn't have the ability to read people and calm their fears, but rather acts in ways that actually exacerbates those fears.

Consider his UHC scheme. One of the questions that keeps being raised is that about Private Insurance. He doesn't seem to understand that Americans have been programmed into a belief that they have to have Insurance, and the way he goes about explaining builds up the fear that in losing their Insurance they will lose their healthcare.

He says "We're getting rid of Private Insurance" instead of saying "Under the healthcare plan I have, you will no longer have any need for Private Insurance."

In his stump speeches in the debates he doesn't come across well as understanding how people think, and that causes people unnecessary fears.

It's an issue that I do worry about as far as how well he can talk to, and convince the middle ground people that he is better than Trump.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:42 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This is one of the major issues I have with Bernie. He doesn't have the ability to read people and calm their fears, but rather acts in ways that actually exacerbates those fears.

Consider his UHC scheme. One of the questions that keeps being raised is that about Private Insurance. He doesn't seem to understand that Americans have been programmed into a belief that they have to have Insurance, and the way he goes about explaining builds up the fear that in losing their Insurance they will lose their healthcare.

He says "We're getting rid of Private Insurance" instead of saying "Under the healthcare plan I have, you will no longer have any need for Private Insurance."

In his stump speeches in the debates he doesn't come across well as understanding how people think, and that causes people unnecessary fears.

It's an issue that I do worry about as far as how well he can talk to, and convince the middle ground people that he is better than Trump.
THIS.
Though with healthcare the problem is that Nobody knows what "Berniecare" will look like. People are going to be very reluctant to exchange their current health care..whatever problems they might have with it...for something they don't know anything about.
And then there is cost..Bernie cannot just nationalize the private insurance companies;he is going to have to buy out the stockholders at a fair market value. That is going to cost huge bucks.

But don't worry; the Berniebots will just handwave this away like they do any criticism of the Anointed One.
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Last edited by dudalb; 21st February 2020 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:47 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This is one of the major issues I have with Bernie. He doesn't have the ability to read people and calm their fears, but rather acts in ways that actually exacerbates those fears.

Consider his UHC scheme. One of the questions that keeps being raised is that about Private Insurance. He doesn't seem to understand that Americans have been programmed into a belief that they have to have Insurance, and the way he goes about explaining builds up the fear that in losing their Insurance they will lose their healthcare.

He says "We're getting rid of Private Insurance" instead of saying "Under the healthcare plan I have, you will no longer have any need for Private Insurance."

In his stump speeches in the debates he doesn't come across well as understanding how people think, and that causes people unnecessary fears.

It's an issue that I do worry about as far as how well he can talk to, and convince the middle ground people that he is better than Trump.
I do have concerns about how he frames his arguments at least if he's going to be that unapologetic and adamant in his views.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:48 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
But don't worry; the Berniebots will just handwave this away like they do any criticism of the Anointed One.

....said the poster who routinely hand waves away the polls showing Sanders leading Trump.

Oh, the irony!
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:57 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Quote:
THIS.
But don't worry; the Berniebots will just handwave this away like they do any criticism of the Anointed One.
....said the poster who routinely hand waves away the polls showing Sanders leading Trump.
Oh, the irony!
People skeptical of Sanders' ability to win the general election generally have a reason why polling data may not mean much... because Sanders hasn't been subject to the type of Republican attacks that candidates like Hillary Clinton (or even Joe Biden) had to endure.

How Sanders will implement parts of his health care plan are different... There is nothing preventing a complete discussion of the impact on the economy when all those health insurance companies see their markets disappear overnight.
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:19 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
Though with healthcare the problem is that Nobody knows what "Berniecare" will look like. People are going to be very reluctant to exchange their current health care..whatever problems they might have with it...for something they don't know anything about.
Very true, and the thing is that it shouldn't be that hard to actually do it either.

Here we go let's try.

All US Citizens and Legal Residents will have their healthcare covered such that they can visit with any General Practitioner inside the US with a minimal cover fee ($20-40). Specialist Appointments, along with with emergency treatment, as well as all non-elective inpatient or outpatient hospital services within the US will be without any cost to the patient (assuming US Citizen or Legal Resident) at the point of service.

Certain elective services, such as elective plastic surgery, will not be covered, but can be covered via a private insurance. Non-elective versions of these, such as plastic surgery for burns victims, would be covered.

Prescriptions will have a subsidised listing which will result in a charge of $5 per prescription for those medications on the list, to a maximum cost to the patient of $100 per year 1st Jan-31st Dec.

Birth control medications well also be subsidised so as to be freely available.

Costs for the system will obtained be via:
  • Savings in Hospital Administration
  • Saving in the Administration costs of Medicare, Medicaid, and Veteran Healthcare as these will all be incorporated into the new system
  • A Healthcare Levy on Businesses based on Number of Employees and the Industry Type of the Business, aimed to be lower that current Insurance Premiums
  • A Healthcare Levy on income earners. Again aimed to be lower that current Healthcare Premiums
  • Levies will be administrated via the IRS to reduce Government Administration

Hospitals will be funded based on populations served and historical use. GPs will be funded based on patients seen and enrolled. Specialists including Dentists, Ophthalmologists, and Physiotherapists will be funded per appointment.

There we go, basic bare bones, but an idea of what it could look like.

Quote:
And then there is cost..Bernie cannot just nationalize the private insurance companies;he is going to have to buy out the stockholders at a fair market value. That is going to cost huge bucks.
Literally don't need to buy them out or nationalize them, just make them useless. Of course it will result in somewhat of a financial lose for those invested in them unless they manage to come up with a new business model that keeps them afloat, but at the end of the day, any business can fail because its marketplace changes, so... market forces, right?
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:33 PM   #55
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“Toxic Bernie Bro culture” is narrative propagated by political opponents that provides many a non
Sequitur justification for suspicion of the candidate.

If America votes for Trump again you will just have to wait for more of the stupid, selfish white boomers to die.

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Old 21st February 2020, 04:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
“Toxic Bernie Bro culture” is narrative propagated by political opponents that provides many a justification for suspicion of the candidate.
Yeah no, it comes from observing certain extreme Bernie followers in both 2016 and now in 2020. Many have noted that there are Bernie Bros that was are more extreme than Bernie is, but make a lot of noise and end up putting people off Bernie.
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yeah no, it comes from observing certain extreme Bernie followers in both 2016 and now in 2020. Many have noted that there are Bernie Bros that was are more extreme than Bernie is, but make a lot of noise and end up putting people off Bernie.
Doesn’t address my point. The behaviour of any of his supporters is no rational reason not to vote for the man and his policies.
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:48 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Doesn’t address my point. The behaviour of any of his supporters is no rational reason not to vote for the man and his policies.
Goes both way, I have seem a number of both his supporters and others on this board stating that they won't vote for other candidates because of how the perceive the supporters of that candidate to act.
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:50 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Doesn’t address my point. The behaviour of any of his supporters is no rational reason not to vote for the man and his policies.
We've seen at least one poster, not seen in a while in the subforum, vow to sit the election out if Bernie gets the nom. Because people were being mean to him on Twitter and Facebook.

I understand his pain because Bernie Bros turn against me a lot of the time too, but that's not what Sanders is about.
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:53 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Are you better off now than you were four years ago?
.
Financially? Yes. A lot better. But I'm smart enough to know that Trump is not responsible for that. The economy would have been healthy if Clinton had been elected, too. It was growing under Obama and this is just a continuation. Sadly, his followers will continue to believe his lies that the economy is the best it's ever been and that's due to him.

In other areas, I'm worse off and my daughter will be worse off due to his huge and growing deficit, his denial of climate change and his EPA's actions that have rolled back environmental protections, his damage to the US's standing in the world, his divisiveness, his attacks on the media sowing distrust, and so much worse.

Am "I" better off? It's a mixed bag. But I will not vote for Trump.
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
People skeptical of Sanders' ability to win the general election generally have a reason why polling data may not mean much... because Sanders hasn't been subject to the type of Republican attacks that candidates like Hillary Clinton (or even Joe Biden) had to endure.

Oh, but that's different from what dudalb is perpetually saying. According to him, the only "evidence" that Sanders supporters have for Sanders winning is some "Lost Tribe" of mythical voters. That's simply not true, and the polls demonstrate it's not true.

I'm fine with bringing an argument that Sanders is a bad candidate, I only ask that you base it on reality, not a myth.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:01 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Goes both way, I have seem a number of both his supporters and others on this board stating that they won't vote for other candidates because of how the perceive the supporters of that candidate to act.
Sweet tu quoque, bro. And off the mark again in the same fashion.

Decide on policies. Don’t act in a realisation of the dystopian comedy Idiocracy.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:04 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Sweet tu quoque, bro. And off the mark again in the same fashion.

Decide on policies. Don’t act in a realisation of the dystopian comedy Idiocracy.
You're really aiming at the wrong person here, if you noticed a few posts back, my issues with Bernie are with Bernie's actions. Having said that I can't vote anyways, but my wife can and will.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:15 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
10. Strategy
In the medium to longer term, the Democratic Party is much better off losing to Trump in 2020 and using this to regain all of Congress in 2022, at which point they Impeach Trump.
By that point, the damage to our democracy will be utterly irreversible and fatal.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:15 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You're really aiming at the wrong person here, if you noticed a few posts back, my issues with Bernie are with Bernie's actions. Having said that I can't vote anyways, but my wife can and will.
Its not personal. You engaged me. You seemed to miss my point, which I tried to emphasise in an edit before you replied.

I cant vote either. I am Australian. As a nation we have looked to your lead, good and bad. Trump has been a disaster and has **** all over the great Enlightenment founding ideals of America of truth, rationality, and individual rights, fairness and participatory democracy. Your further slide into corporatocracy/oligarchy/kleptocracy will be ours.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:18 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
if the Dems offered a halfway decent candidate maybe;not the way things stand.
The recent Quinnepac poll shows the entire Democratic field beating Trump in an honest election.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:21 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
The recent Quinnepac poll shows the entire Democratic field beating Trump in an honest election.
The polls showed Clinton winning, too.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:22 PM   #68
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The big thing that the Trump campaign has that the Democrats currently do not have is a large and dedicated core of avid supporters.

However, I have noticed that Trump support seldom translates to down ballot support.

Therefore, even if Trump does actually become the President again, then I expect that his problems with Congress will be even worse than they already are.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:22 PM   #69
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[quote=Meadmaker;12997365]I think the op hits on a lot of good points, but it missed one.

11. Donald Trump has been president for three years, and nothing really bad has happened.]/quote]

Tell that to the poor, minorities, immigrants, women, the professional civil service, anyone who cares about clean air/land/water or honest finances, workers, etc.


Quote:
In my opinion, he's setting us up for bad things in the future with huge borrowing and environmental damage, but in the right here right now, things are ok.

To phrase it differently, "it's the economy, stupid."
Just so long as you get your 30 pieces of silver, eh Mead?
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:23 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The polls showed Clinton winning, too.
“And into that epistemic wasteland I insert my own reality.”
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:23 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think the op hits on a lot of good points, but it missed one.

11. Donald Trump has been president for three years, and nothing really bad has happened.
Tell that to the poor, minorities, immigrants, women, the professional civil service, anyone who cares about clean air/land/water or honest finances, workers, etc.


Quote:
In my opinion, he's setting us up for bad things in the future with huge borrowing and environmental damage, but in the right here right now, things are ok.

To phrase it differently, "it's the economy, stupid."
Just so long as you get your 30 pieces of silver, eh Mead?
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:30 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I rest my case.
Your case was DOA
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:31 PM   #73
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Dudalb's been suggesting the possibility of civil war for quite some time. I hope it doesn't come to that.
IF it does happen, we'd better make sure it isn't the half-assed effort decent people made in the last one. We need a full on French Revolution-type housecleaning.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:31 PM   #74
applecorped
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Tell that to the poor, minorities, immigrants, women, the professional civil service, anyone who cares about clean air/land/water or honest finances, workers, etc.




Just so long as you get your 30 pieces of silver, eh Mead?
It was only 20 pieces after tax
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:32 PM   #75
applecorped
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
IF it does happen, we'd better make sure it isn't the half-assed effort decent people made in the last one. We need a full on French Revolution-type housecleaning.
And there it is....wishing death on your opponent's when all else fails


How tolerant


How Progressive



How Christian
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:41 PM   #76
Brainster
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see someone just proved our points about Bernie Bros.
That's a little unfair. I see mild pushback against your position that Bernie can't win, but I don't see anything like the twitterstorms that the Bernie Bros are responsible for elsewhere.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:44 PM   #77
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The polls showed Clinton winning, too.
She did win. DESPITE massive GOP election rigging, she got more votes.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:49 PM   #78
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
And there it is....wishing death on your opponent's when all else fails
If it is to be a war, it will not be my side that starts it.


Quote:
How tolerant
Tolerating the intolerable is how we got here.

Quote:
How Progressive
Progressives freed the slaves via war.

Quote:
How Christian
Jesus is known for flipping tables from time to time when pushed to it.

Read also Revelations and what Jesus and the Army of Heaven will do to the wicked world in those days.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:13 PM   #79
dudalb
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Very true, and the thing is that it shouldn't be that hard to actually do it either.

Here we go let's try.

All US Citizens and Legal Residents will have their healthcare covered such that they can visit with any General Practitioner inside the US with a minimal cover fee ($20-40). Specialist Appointments, along with with emergency treatment, as well as all non-elective inpatient or outpatient hospital services within the US will be without any cost to the patient (assuming US Citizen or Legal Resident) at the point of service.

Certain elective services, such as elective plastic surgery, will not be covered, but can be covered via a private insurance. Non-elective versions of these, such as plastic surgery for burns victims, would be covered.

Prescriptions will have a subsidised listing which will result in a charge of $5 per prescription for those medications on the list, to a maximum cost to the patient of $100 per year 1st Jan-31st Dec.

Birth control medications well also be subsidised so as to be freely available.

Costs for the system will obtained be via:
  • Savings in Hospital Administration
  • Saving in the Administration costs of Medicare, Medicaid, and Veteran Healthcare as these will all be incorporated into the new system
  • A Healthcare Levy on Businesses based on Number of Employees and the Industry Type of the Business, aimed to be lower that current Insurance Premiums
  • A Healthcare Levy on income earners. Again aimed to be lower that current Healthcare Premiums
  • Levies will be administrated via the IRS to reduce Government Administration

Hospitals will be funded based on populations served and historical use. GPs will be funded based on patients seen and enrolled. Specialists including Dentists, Ophthalmologists, and Physiotherapists will be funded per appointment.

There we go, basic bare bones, but an idea of what it could look like.



Literally don't need to buy them out or nationalize them, just make them useless. Of course it will result in somewhat of a financial lose for those invested in them unless they manage to come up with a new business model that keeps them afloat, but at the end of the day, any business can fail because its marketplace changes, so... market forces, right?
Problem is in the US a great many of the hospitals are owned by the Health Providers ie the Insurance Companies,so they would still have to bought out.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:16 PM   #80
dudalb
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No fan of Bernie, but I give him a lot of credit for renouncing any support from Russia and telling Putin where to get off.
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