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Tags donald trump , fascism charges , Trump controversies

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Old 2nd September 2020, 04:35 PM   #321
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again Trump "doesn't have an ideology so LOL he can't be a fascist"
Well, yes. Fascism is ideological. It's not simply "bad people doing bad things". Trump can't be a communist either, for the same reason.

The fact that you have to insert the LOL in your strawman is symptomatic of your inability to actually engage on the level of ideas rather than mockery.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 07:09 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Let's see...

If the "Liberal Mob" is at all like the liberals on this board, then the part about hating conservatives is definitely true.
Liberals on this board don't hate conservatives like Trump hates his political enemies.

It's inflammatory language designed to fire up his base as usual. You would not see language like that on a Biden or Sanders ad against any conservative not named Donald Trump. Actually even in the case of Trump they're not demonizing conservatives in general.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd say the part about hating America is also true.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 07:26 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Liberals on this board don't hate conservatives like Trump hates his political enemies.
True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does.

But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 07:49 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does.

But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.
I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them. I hate TRUMP. I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 08:07 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does.

But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.
There is some hate and it isn't entirely unwarranted.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 08:20 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
There is some hate and it isn't entirely unwarranted.
I never said it was unwarranted. I said Trump is telling the truth when he says it's real.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 08:23 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them. I hate TRUMP. I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots.
Oh, good. You're just despise them. So very different from hating them.

Howard about the rest of it? Going after people in the street for having conservative beliefs, what do you think? Good or bad?
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Old 2nd September 2020, 08:52 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I never said it was unwarranted. I said Trump is telling the truth when he says it's real.
And he's being totally disingenuous by omission. The liberal mob is here! Just ignore the vicious conservative mobs who want to keep liberals and minorities in their place. Even more vile is insinuating that Democratic politicians are giving energy to the mobs.

It'd be laughable if it wasn't so over the top divisive. He has no empathy; everything is for the good of his reelection chances. That might sound like politics as usual for the cynic but it's quite literally true when it comes to Trump.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 09:42 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, yes. Fascism is ideological. It's not simply "bad people doing bad things". Trump can't be a communist either, for the same reason.
Yeah, I think Trump's thinking is more accurately described as "authoritarianian" or "anti-liberal democracy" - I think many of the current strongmen around the world are pretty nonideological too. They just want to have power and not to be dependent on laws and elections - and they despise the smarmy centre-left as they see it. Obviously Trump is even more shallow than that but the instincts are there. So, he can both be a deadly threat to the democratic structures and processes and not really be a fascist.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 09:56 PM   #330
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I think fascism is just one of these modern buzzwords people pick up as they become more politically and socially aware. It's in the company of terrorism, pedophilia, socialism, Independent, treason, etc. words that have specific definitions or make sense within a narrow set of conditions but have become horrifically misused in casual discourse.

Bill Maher had a New Rule segment titled "distinction deniers" that touches on this a bit. One of his better ones.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 09:58 PM   #331
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Absolutely right I hate conservatives! They have become dangerous to this country and to everybody that doesn't fit in with their white supremacist views.

I can't even blame it on Trump, as he is just a manifestation of the decline of "conservatism" in this country. A significant segment populace has been embracing far-right views for a long time and he said all the right things to get their hatred, ignorance, and brutality going.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 10:21 PM   #332
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Trump's regime can be fascist without Trump himself being a fascist.

For example, he covers for and supports Cops with connections to Fascist groups. And of course the Fascist groups themselves.

If you think Trump is too lazy or unimaginative to be a Fascist, he certainly welcomes them as long as they support him.

In my book, that makes him a Fascist by association.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 10:47 PM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does.

But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them.[ I hate TRUMP.I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oh, good. You're just despise them. So very different from hating them.

Howard about the rest of it? Going after people in the street for having conservative beliefs, what do you think? Good or bad?
Do you have a reading comprehension disability or is this just your usual "I have to twist/disagree with everything someone says" retort?

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Old 2nd September 2020, 11:19 PM   #334
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I don't hate Conservatives, I feel embarrassed for them for their undignified kowtowing to a conman who doesn't share a single of their principles.
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Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 2nd September 2020 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 01:29 AM   #335
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A Yale history professor argues that we shouldn't use the word "fascist" to describe Trump, because fascism requires a "regimented mass movement, with a uniformed paramilitary arm, committed to the radical remaking of society as a whole", and that nothing currently in the US actually qualifies

He does say, though, that he's a real threat to democracy.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 05:08 AM   #336
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I see the trolls have successfully drug us back down to explaining to them yet again why being hated for hating people and just being hated aren't the same thing while they "LOL Pretend" not to get it.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 05:19 AM   #337
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A few hours ago I got compared to a Nazi Brownshirt for cheering a racists beatdown.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 05:21 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Six of one, half dozen of the other. He may be non-ideological because he's lazy (rather than out of any principled commitment to not be), but that still leaves him non-ideological.
But there are occasions where he has no choice but to take action, and in those moments, he clearly shows an ideological preference. He undercuts it through short-sighted grifting and waffling, but there's a clear trend.

Sure, he leaves a lot of important loose ends unaddressed. For example, he hasn't really seem to have done much to try to co-opt the military, which is a major oversight for any budding fascist.

Being a dumb and lazy fascist is still being a fascist.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:06 AM   #339
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I want to be on record that I'm not with the fascist deniers here.

I agree with the criteria presented. I agree that the behavior described lies on the continuum that criteria is located on. I just have no idea how to determine if a behavior is above or below that threshold.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:09 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I see the trolls have successfully drug us back down to explaining to them yet again why being hated for hating people and just being hated aren't the same thing while they "LOL Pretend" not to get it.
Or you are simply wrong, he is bad for our system, but the Fascist label is misused. And unable to handle being wrong.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 10:07 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But he still has to push an ideology.
This doesn't make sense. A rose doesnít know itís a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesnít mean we canít look at it and see that itís a flower.

Likewise Trump doesnít need to believe in fascism nor even know what it is for us to look at his behavior for what it is and describe if as fascism.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 10:10 AM   #342
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Much in the same way Officer McTiredNHorny couldn't fire into a dark apartment and go "LOL didn't know it wasn't my apartment! I guess you have to let me go!" President Trump can't just go "LOL I had no idea I was doing anything fascists because I have the mental capacity of a bowl of clam chowder left out until it achieves room temperature."

You don't get to be intentionally stupid and then go "LOL I don't know what I'm doing, don't blame me."
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Old 3rd September 2020, 10:12 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This doesn't make sense. A rose doesnít know itís a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesnít mean we canít look at it and see that itís a flower.
A rose by any other name would smell as oppressive?
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Old 3rd September 2020, 10:22 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can claim that a fascist doesn't need to believe in the ideology he's pushing. But he still has to push an ideology. Fascism doesn't exist in the absence of ideology.

And Trump isn't pushing any ideology. The closest thing he's got is a very bland and generic populism, but it's a stretch to call Trump's version an actual ideology.
Ever since he came down the escalator, if you don't see that he's brazenly pushed the concept that brown/black people represent a dangerous threat to America and apple pie, I can't help you.

Corey Booker is heading up the invasion!
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Old 3rd September 2020, 10:42 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
But there are occasions where he has no choice but to take action, and in those moments, he clearly shows an ideological preference. He undercuts it through short-sighted grifting and waffling, but there's a clear trend.

Sure, he leaves a lot of important loose ends unaddressed. For example, he hasn't really seem to have done much to try to co-opt the military, which is a major oversight for any budding fascist.

Being a dumb and lazy fascist is still being a fascist.
Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist.

But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 11:03 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Much in the same way Officer McTiredNHorny couldn't fire into a dark apartment and go "LOL didn't know it wasn't my apartment! I guess you have to let me go!" President Trump can't just go "LOL I had no idea I was doing anything fascists because I have the mental capacity of a bowl of clam chowder left out until it achieves room temperature."

You don't get to be intentionally stupid and then go "LOL I don't know what I'm doing, don't blame me."
It's similar to the Costanza defense. "Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?", except even George Costanza was more crafty than Trump.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 11:51 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This doesn't make sense. A rose doesnít know itís a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesnít mean we canít look at it and see that itís a flower.

Likewise Trump doesnít need to believe in fascism nor even know what it is for us to look at his behavior for what it is and describe if as fascism.
The behavior isn't unique to fascism, though. And the things that are unique to fascism - the ideological framework and the implementation of the system - are exactly the things he's missing.

This is just "nazis" all over again.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 11:51 AM   #348
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Yes.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 11:52 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist.

But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable.
Hey now, don't be so glum. I still think W is a war criminal that should be hanged at the Hague
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Old 3rd September 2020, 12:44 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The behavior isn't unique to fascism, though.
Why would you expect it to be unique? Fascism is characterized by a set of behaviours, not one individual behavior uniquely itís own. The relevant question is whether the behaviors mentioned are part of that set of behaviours, which AFAICT they are.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 12:49 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hey now, don't be so glum. I still think W is a war criminal that should be hanged at the Hague
Same. It disgusts me how close the Dems are with Bush now, it's like Iraq never happened. Bush never invaded a country over false pretenses and Dems like Biden never supported it. This is the new normal for them.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 12:51 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Same. It disgusts me how close the Dems are with Bush now, it's like Iraq never happened. Bush never invaded a country over false pretenses and Dems like Biden never supported it. This is the new normal for them.
The onion remembers:

Quote:
George W. Bush Debuts New Paintings Of Dogs, Friends, Ghost Of Iraqi Child That Follows Him Everywhere
https://www.theonion.com/george-w-bu...s-g-1819595637

The whitewashing of Bush as some nice old man pursuing his hobbies or sharing mints with the Obamas is pretty gross.

It should be pointed out that there was no room for party disunity when we were running up against Bush too. It was simply too dangerous to allow him to win. After all, a win for a democrat would mean an end to these pointless wars in the Middle East...

Seems there's never a good time to hear grievances from the left.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 12:57 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist.

But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable.
Oh get a new tune. "It's okay that we're being evil because you're being dramatic" is as played out as the Macarana at this point.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 01:18 PM   #354
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I'd like to contribute my signature to the thread
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Old 4th September 2020, 04:31 AM   #355
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One area I'd say he does have a discernable ideology is his views on commerce, he is fine with private ownership of businesses as long as they support the state, I.e. Trump.
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Old 4th September 2020, 06:33 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
I'd like to contribute my signature to the thread
I have signatures turned off. Anything mindlessly repeated in every single post can't be that important to any particular conversation.
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Old 4th September 2020, 07:06 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh get a new tune.
This entire forum is essentially just Orange Man BadTM now, and you think I need a new tune?
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Old 4th September 2020, 07:10 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This entire forum is essentially just Orange Man BadTM now, and you think I need a new tune?
And instead of realizing that Orange Man does something bad every day, you chose to go the LOL LIBRULS way?
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Old 4th September 2020, 07:20 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This entire forum is essentially just Orange Man BadTM now, and you think I need a new tune?
Is he not bad?
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Old 4th September 2020, 08:00 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is he not bad?
He's not a fascist, he's not going to cancel elections, try to turn America into a dictatorship, stay in office past his term, or any of the other myriad things that he's being accused of on a regular basis here. And when have Democrats ever thought a Republican president wasn't bad? Before you bother saying it, no, I'm not claiming Republicans are any better in that regard, they think every Democrat president is bad too.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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