IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , joe biden , presidential candidates

Reply
Old 4th November 2020, 11:50 PM   #81
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,052
Ah yes, if one absurd distraction attempt that you already know the answers to fails, try another, only with a bunch of smugness added!

You're the ones with the claim that all of the Democrats who have won actually lost and the ones who have lost actually won, in one election after another after another after another, or that the key to winning is to mimic the losers and being more like the winners is a sure way to lose. You're the ones who need to do the explaining. You're not in a position to demand explanations from the people who are merely observing reality for what it is instead of pretending it's the exact opposite of itself.

Or you could just start just facing reality. I'll deal (again) with this lower-level-details-&-hypotheticals stuff you're trying to use to make reality go away, as soon as you acknowledge the fact that the big-picture conclusion you're trying to use it to prove has kept getting proven false every time it's been tested. With arguments that grass must be purple, it doesn't matter exactly where/how/why the arguments go wrong or how to correct them; the false conclusion alone is enough to show that the conclusion is false.

Last edited by Delvo; 5th November 2020 at 12:51 AM.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 05:06 AM   #82
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 8,111
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Ah yes, if one absurd distraction attempt that you already know the answers to fails, try another, only with a bunch of smugness added!

You're the ones with the claim that all of the Democrats who have won actually lost and the ones who have lost actually won, in one election after another after another after another, or that the key to winning is to mimic the losers and being more like the winners is a sure way to lose. You're the ones who need to do the explaining. You're not in a position to demand explanations from the people who are merely observing reality for what it is instead of pretending it's the exact opposite of itself.
Sorry, but no. You are the one advancing a twice failed candidate who is far weaker against what Trump used to keep this election this close. The key to winning is not to run a candidate who is more weak with the Democrats and the center and far more likely to fire up the far right even more.

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Or you could just start just facing reality. I'll deal (again) with this lower-level-details-&-hypotheticals stuff you're trying to use to make reality go away, as soon as you acknowledge the fact that the big-picture conclusion you're trying to use it to prove has kept getting proven false every time it's been tested. With arguments that grass must be purple, it doesn't matter exactly where/how/why the arguments go wrong or how to correct them; the false conclusion alone is enough to show that the conclusion is false.
When a Sanders supporter both claims that Sanders would have been better and whines about others using hypotheticals, I think even that Bernie-bro knows he has lost it.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:01 AM   #83
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,572
Bernie bros are so weird. They claim Bernie is more electable but if that was true, Bernie would've been elected in the primary. It's like claiming that the Washington Generals are a much better team than the Harlem Globetrotters...
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

Last edited by thaiboxerken; 5th November 2020 at 10:02 AM.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:04 AM   #84
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,529
Want to be nominated have to win the primary. It’s simple.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:50 AM   #85
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,853
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Bernie bros are so weird. They claim Bernie is more electable but if that was true, Bernie would've been elected in the primary. It's like claiming that the Washington Generals are a much better team than the Harlem Globetrotters...
Hey, being the foil in a comedy routine is hard work. So is being a stage magician's assistant.

Are you saying Bernie Sanders is basically the straight man to the mainstream Democrats' clown show?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:51 AM   #86
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,853
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Want to be nominated have to win the primary. Itís simple.
It's like how the winning team in the NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Tournament advances further up the bracket than the losing teams.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:55 AM   #87
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,696
Because they don't want Bernie to actually win. He stays the perpetual unproven reason they are right, as is his job.
__________________
- No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
- There is no Overton Window for facts.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:59 AM   #88
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 14,150
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Bernie bros are so weird. They claim Bernie is more electable but if that was true, Bernie would've been elected in the primary. It's like claiming that the Washington Generals are a much better team than the Harlem Globetrotters...
If a big reason Trump got Florida was that his campaign was able to sell the "Biden is a socialist" lie to the Cubans, imagine what they could have done with a guy who actually calls himself a socialist.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 11:03 AM   #89
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,696
Originally Posted by timhau View Post
If a big reason Trump got Florida was that his campaign was able to sell the "Biden is a socialist" lie to the Cubans, imagine what they could have done with a guy who actually describes himself as a sovialist.
The Bernie Bros have always argued there's some huge voting demographic, big enough to offset all of that, just sitting at home on election day in a huff who will rise up and vote when an ideologically pure enough candidate is finally presented on silver platter for them.

That's the whole issue with the "Oh it's the Dems elected an unlikeable candidate" argument. While it has some validity in on a practical, political level as an ideological argument it's insane.

I get it it. We all want massage to come with a happy ending. But if the only massage on the menu doesn't come with a happy ending you don't either not get the massage or opt for "Kick me in the balls" option.
__________________
- No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
- There is no Overton Window for facts.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 11:07 AM   #90
Safe-Keeper
Penultimate Amazing
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,260
Looking for the "Biden presidency" thread, which probably won't go for 20+ pages since he's an adult and won't constantly manufacture scandals.

Originally Posted by timhau View Post
If a big reason Trump got Florida was that his campaign was able to sell the "Biden is a socialist" lie to the Cubans, imagine what they could have done with a guy who actually calls himself a socialist.
true dat.
__________________
"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs
"If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 11:08 AM   #91
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,239
I think people underrate personalities.
Trump, although I don't like his personality, is at least interesting.

Biden is not. He's completely uninspiring. Compare that with Obama, who was a great orator and an interesting person.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 11:18 AM   #92
Woolgatherer
Graduate Poster
 
Woolgatherer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,741
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I think people underrate personalities.
Trump, although I don't like his personality, is at least interesting.

Biden is not. He's completely uninspiring. Compare that with Obama, who was a great orator and an interesting person.
Trump is "interesting" where Obama is fascinating. I did vote for Biden but I was thinking "this is the best candidate the Dems could come up with"?
Woolgatherer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 12:18 PM   #93
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,052
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Bernie bros are so weird.
What's weird is the obsession by the anti-Bernie brigade, constantly bringing up "Bernie Bernie Bernie" when he's not even the subject anyway.

Your claim is that Biden would win the general election because being "moderate" is how to win. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.

Your claim is that campaigning to the left would lose the general election because going left is how to lose. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.

The examples that can be used to measure a principle about how general elections (for President) go don't include people who haven't been in a general election (for President). But the available examples prove that your claims are false every single time, so arguing for your false principles that have never worked means you have nothing to resort to but things that haven't ever even happened.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
They claim Bernie is more electable but if that was true, Bernie would've been elected in the primary.
Obviously false. You know as well as everybody else does that that's just not how it works... especially since your own perpetuation of the fear-mongering "ELECTABLE!" myth, which has always been false in actual real-world cases, are the main reason why that's not how it works. (That part makes it just like the people who stir up controversy over evolution so they can then yell "teach the controversy", and put a religious slogan on the country's cash so they can then yell that it's "a Christian nation" because it has their slogan on its cash.)

But oh no no no, there's some way for the claim that everything is somehow really exactly the opposite of all real-world examples to make sense, because Bernie Bernie Bernie.

Last edited by Delvo; 5th November 2020 at 12:28 PM.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 01:08 PM   #94
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 8,111
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Your claim is that Biden would win the general election because being "moderate" is how to win. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.
Your claim is now that no moderate Democrat or moderate Republican has ever won? Are you sure about that?
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 01:47 PM   #95
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,154
I haven't seen a populist progressive win in my lifetime.

Neoliberal centrists have done quite well campaigning as populist progressives.

Maybe that's the confusion.

:9
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 02:36 PM   #96
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,177
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I think people underrate personalities.
I agree - and have said so many times.

Quote:
Trump, although I don't like his personality, is at least interesting.
I don't agree with this. He's basically an 80s shock jock, or a comedian whose routine consists of telling people how triggered they are and how he identifies as an attack helicopter. He's bigoted, narcissistic, bigoted, and tacky. That's about all he is. I know people say he's funny or entertaining...I don't see it.

Quote:
Biden is not. He's completely uninspiring. Compare that with Obama, who was a great orator and an interesting person.
Biden strikes me as more the down home, cares about you old guy that Dolt 45 is advertised as. Nowhere near the joke-cracking, charismatic speaker Obama is, but still reasonably good.

In any case, I've been pretty clear that Sanders losing a second campaign was completely predictable, in large part because it was the exact campaign he ran the first time, with the same major flaws, against the same easy shoe-in type of opponent. Only more so, since Biden picked up some a few of his better advisers and lacked the...well, the uterus that Clinton had really, and Sanders stuck with widely disliked people like Brianna Grey. And for the most part, this just meant he did worse in 2020 than he did in 2016. And I don't see a reason to think he'd do better than Biden in this election, really - the two big attacks are "Biden's got dementia" based on a few selected clips, and "He's a soshulist", based on...nothing. The first can be used on any elderly person, the second would hit Sanders much harder than Biden.

Last edited by Mumbles; 5th November 2020 at 02:39 PM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 03:48 PM   #97
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,745
I'm less confident about Sanders' chances being better than Biden after seeing Florida Latinos high on the anti-socialist spell and strong Republican states completely closing out any chance of a Biden steal, and with the other battlegrounds deadlocked a few thousand votes difference at most.

But Sanders would bring far more energy than Biden that could possibly bring more people out in the general. I don't know if the anti-socialist rhetoric would drown out Sanders' more aggressive, forward approach that Biden largely avoided.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 04:04 PM   #98
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,403
Look, I also wanted Sanders to win the primary and the general election, but look at just how effective Trump was at getting out the vote. This was not some easy victory. Trump got more votes than Obama ever did! Think about how crazy that is!

Sanders would have been toast! You only have to look at the...er...polls to see how unfavourable socialists are in America.

I want it to be different but it isn't.

Biden actually managed a massive tally of votes.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 04:05 PM   #99
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,403
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I'm less confident about Sanders' chances being better than Biden after seeing Florida Latinos high on the anti-socialist spell and strong Republican states completely closing out any chance of a Biden steal, and with the other battlegrounds deadlocked a few thousand votes difference at most.

But Sanders would bring far more energy than Biden that could possibly bring more people out in the general. I don't know if the anti-socialist rhetoric would drown out Sanders' more aggressive, forward approach that Biden largely avoided.
Nah! I don't see it. Where are these people coming from?

When the final votes are counted, how many more would there have been to bring out?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 04:14 PM   #100
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 21,672
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Nah! I don't see it. Where are these people coming from?

When the final votes are counted, how many more would there have been to bring out?
I know more people who voted for Biden that would never vote for Sanders than I do people who would vote for Sanders, but never Biden.

Most have student loan debt from medical school, but they are not alone.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 04:24 PM   #101
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,403
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I know more people who voted for Biden that would never vote for Sanders than I do people who would vote for Sanders, but never Biden.

Most have student loan debt from medical school, but they are not alone.
Yeah, I would genuinely be interested in seeing some data. I know that progressives and leftists are going to say, "See, look! Biden didn't attract Republicans which was their strategy, and he lost more ethnic minorities to Trump than before and yet he was supposed to be strong with them, so the answer must be Sanders!"

Well, nice theory, but then again, instead of being a nail-biter like this election, there is always the possibility that the Democrats get electorally wiped out.

People say they would vote for a Black candidate at 96%, a Catholic at 95%, a Hispanic at 95%, a woman at 94% and a Jewish person at 93%, Gay/Lesbian at 76%

Then atheist at 60% and a socialist at 47%.

The figures don't bode well for an ageing, atheist, socialist Jew.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 05:28 PM   #102
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,572
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Your claim is now that no moderate Democrat or moderate Republican has ever won? Are you sure about that?
I guess he forgot about Clinton and Obama. Hmmm..
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 05:34 PM   #103
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, I would genuinely be interested in seeing some data. I know that progressives and leftists are going to say, "See, look! Biden didn't attract Republicans which was their strategy, and he lost more ethnic minorities to Trump than before and yet he was supposed to be strong with them, so the answer must be Sanders!"

Well, nice theory, but then again, instead of being a nail-biter like this election, there is always the possibility that the Democrats get electorally wiped out.
I agree itís a bit silly.

The pollsters massively underestimated the pro Trump turn out. They also severely underestimated the Trump campaignís competency. They may be bad at government but they could run an election campaign like nobody else.

Biden got everyone and their mothers to come vote. Turnout was through the roof. Itís not on Biden that Trump ran an excellent, if unorthodox, campaign.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 07:03 PM   #104
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,745
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Nah! I don't see it. Where are these people coming from?

When the final votes are counted, how many more would there have been to bring out?
Possibly young people. Turnout for young people was low in the primaries yeah, but also low in this general.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:06 PM   #105
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,900
I wasn't happy to see Biden get the nomination, but it was for one, single, reason. He's too old. I think that hurt him at the polls, too.

However, as the campaign went on, I eventually decided that Joe Biden was the perfect man for the job. Mostly a conciliator, a grandfatherly figure, a basic, decent man, but with a feisty streak willing to call out Donald Trump on his lies, and even throw Trump on defense with some attacks that left Trump in a position to have to explain his out of context words.

In the end, I'm glad he got the nomination.

Unless he loses. If he loses, he's a old fogey who should have stayed on the park bench instead of running for President.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 07:19 AM   #106
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 8,111
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Trump is done.
Very funny.
It's funnier now.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 07:20 AM   #107
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,796
First female VP!
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 07:21 AM   #108
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
I remain ambivalent about a Biden presidency, but it's an unambiguous good that Trump lost.

I don't know what this means for the longer term future, but some of the worst people in this country are extremely demoralized right now, and that rocks.

The struggle against neoliberalism continues tomorrow, but today is a good day.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 07:29 AM   #109
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,282
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...Your claim is that Biden would win the general election because being "moderate" is how to win. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.
Except for Kennedy, Carter, Clinton, Obama. Johnson was an incumbent. That's different, otherwise he'd qualify. Oh wait, that's everybody.

Quote:
Your claim is that campaigning to the left would lose the general election because going left is how to lose. There are exactly zero examples of that principle ever actually working.
McGovern.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 07:46 AM   #110
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,878
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Except for Kennedy, Carter, Clinton, Obama. Johnson was an incumbent. That's different, otherwise he'd qualify. Oh wait, that's everybody.

McGovern.
You are forgetting that vast pool of hidden left wing voters out there, pal....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 07:47 AM   #111
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Obama, at least in 2008, ran as a progressive. Sure, he didn't govern as one, but the campaign messaging was quite clear. He didn't run as a Clinton third-way liberal.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 07:48 AM   #112
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,878
Someone just leaked a Fox News Memo....they will not refer to Biden as the President Elect.
What a bunch of A Holes.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 08:24 AM   #113
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,052
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Except for Kennedy, Carter, Clinton, Obama...

McGovern.
Bill "a vote for me is a vote for change" Clinton and Barrack "hope & change" Obama both campaigned to the left and are the only Democrats who've won in a couple of generations. The others might as well be Sumerians. When I've stated this case before, I've included things like "in the modern era" or "since Reagan" or "there might have been an era when it was otherwise, but not this one", but this time I figured everybody already knew the context. (In fact, I still think you did, just like you also already knew that I was referring to their campaigns, not how they governed after winning.)
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #114
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,900
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Bill "a vote for me is a vote for change" Clinton and Barrack "hope & change" Obama both campaigned to the left and are the only Democrats who've won in a couple of generations. The others might as well be Sumerians. When I've stated this case before, I've included things like "in the modern era" or "since Reagan" or "there might have been an era when it was otherwise, but not this one", but this time I figured everybody already knew the context. (In fact, I still think you did, just like you also already knew that I was referring to their campaigns, not how they governed after winning.)
Bill didn't "campaign to the left". He was the leader of something called the "Democratic Leadership Conference", a group of mostly southern Democratic moderates, urging the Democratic party to reconnect with their working class roots and abandon unpopular extremist positions. When Clinton won the nomination, it was widely speculated that he would select a more liberal candidate for Vice President, but instead he went with fellow DLC member Al Gore.

It is widely believed that he secured victory with the famous "Sister Soulja" moment, where he condemned a rap singer for song lyrics that advocated violence. That separated him from some Democratic candidates who would instinctively defend the popular black artist, making excuses for the violent rhetoric.

I'm not sure I would say that Barack Obama campaigned to the left, either. He condemned the fiery rhetoric of the Reverend Wright. To be honest, I don't remember what separated him from other rivals for the nomination when it came to policy or attitude. I don't even remember who those rivals were, other than Hillary Clinton. I don't think he campaigned "to the left" of Clinton. I just think he was more charismatic.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 08:56 AM   #115
Monza
Alta Viro
 
Monza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,164
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
First female VP!
And an African American at that! I haven't seen much news being made about either of those facts recently, and am kinda glad. It doesn't feel abnormal to have a black woman as Vice President, and it shouldn't. We have a decent, competent person in the role and that should be enough. I'm happy for her, and for us.
Monza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 09:01 AM   #116
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,641
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Bill didn't "campaign to the left". He was the leader of something called the "Democratic Leadership Conference", a group of mostly southern Democratic moderates, urging the Democratic party to reconnect with their working class roots and abandon unpopular extremist positions. When Clinton won the nomination, it was widely speculated that he would select a more liberal candidate for Vice President, but instead he went with fellow DLC member Al Gore.

It is widely believed that he secured victory with the famous "Sister Soulja" moment, where he condemned a rap singer for song lyrics that advocated violence. That separated him from some Democratic candidates who would instinctively defend the popular black artist, making excuses for the violent rhetoric.

I'm not sure I would say that Barack Obama campaigned to the left, either. He condemned the fiery rhetoric of the Reverend Wright. To be honest, I don't remember what separated him from other rivals for the nomination when it came to policy or attitude. I don't even remember who those rivals were, other than Hillary Clinton. I don't think he campaigned "to the left" of Clinton. I just think he was more charismatic.
I'm not entirely sure how important policies are really. Once people are in power then they may try to get their policies implemented but they're are subject to the whims of the House and Senate and in today's ultra-partisan times, I'm not sure how effective they will be unless their party has comfortable control over both.

IMO it all comes down to charisma.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 09:07 AM   #117
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,177
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Bill didn't "campaign to the left". He was the leader of something called the "Democratic Leadership Conference", a group of mostly southern Democratic moderates, urging the Democratic party to reconnect with their working class roots and abandon unpopular extremist positions. When Clinton won the nomination, it was widely speculated that he would select a more liberal candidate for Vice President, but instead he went with fellow DLC member Al Gore.

It is widely believed that he secured victory with the famous "Sister Soulja" moment, where he condemned a rap singer for song lyrics that advocated violence. That separated him from some Democratic candidates who would instinctively defend the popular black artist, making excuses for the violent rhetoric.

I'm not sure I would say that Barack Obama campaigned to the left, either. He condemned the fiery rhetoric of the Reverend Wright. To be honest, I don't remember what separated him from other rivals for the nomination when it came to policy or attitude. I don't even remember who those rivals were, other than Hillary Clinton. I don't think he campaigned "to the left" of Clinton. I just think he was more charismatic.
The serious lefty in 2008 was Dennis Kusinich - who was regarded as a joke. Edwards ran, lost, and was destroyed by an affair. Biden ran, fairly centrist, and...well, you know. I think Gravel ran - only remember his name because he's trying to spin up a progressive answer to PragerU on Youtube (a very good idea).

And then there were some other people, nobody cared about them.

I said the entire time that when you looked at actual positions, Obama and Clinton were pretty close - same basic health care system, same basic view on wars, rights, and so forth. No real distance on immigration, which wasn't a massive issue among dems in any case. It was mostly identity, and "did you vote for the Iraq war?", which Obama won by default.

Yes, Obama promised "change", and a lot of people read what they wanted into that, decided that he abandoned on withdrawing from Afghanistan (he wanted a "surge" there) and Medicare for all (which he outright rejected during the campaign, and couldn't possibly pass in the senate long-term anyway - Lieberman alone pretty much blocked Medicare expansion just to piss off the left).

ETA: the thing that struck me about Obama's condemnation of wright was how much he concentrated on Wright saying "Obama is a politician, and speaks in the way politicians do. I'm a reverend, I speak the way reverends so." Both of these are...perfectly correct, really. And I was always amused by the hysterics over Wright's "God Damn America", leaving out "For killing innocent people, that's in the bible!" from the same people who nod approvingly when some televangelist says God sent some hurricane to America to punish us for letting dudes kiss in public.

Last edited by Mumbles; 6th November 2020 at 09:14 AM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 09:12 AM   #118
bignickel
Mad Mod Poet God
 
bignickel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 3,202
Deleted. Wrong thread
__________________
"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that."
- Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

Last edited by bignickel; 6th November 2020 at 09:18 AM. Reason: Deleted
bignickel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 09:29 AM   #119
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,282
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Bill "a vote for me is a vote for change" Clinton and Barrack "hope & change" Obama both campaigned to the left and are the only Democrats who've won in a couple of generations. The others might as well be Sumerians. When I've stated this case before, I've included things like "in the modern era" or "since Reagan" or "there might have been an era when it was otherwise, but not this one", but this time I figured everybody already knew the context. (In fact, I still think you did, just like you also already knew that I was referring to their campaigns, not how they governed after winning.)
You're solidly in the realm of alternate universe here. Utterly divorced from fact.

For what nothing it's worth, my first ever political contribution: Jerry Brown, opposing Clinton in the primary.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 09:52 AM   #120
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,806
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I wasn't happy to see Biden get the nomination, but it was for one, single, reason. He's too old. I think that hurt him at the polls, too.

However, as the campaign went on, I eventually decided that Joe Biden was the perfect man for the job. Mostly a conciliator, a grandfatherly figure, a basic, decent man, but with a feisty streak willing to call out Donald Trump on his lies, and even throw Trump on defense with some attacks that left Trump in a position to have to explain his out of context words.

In the end, I'm glad he got the nomination.

Unless he loses. If he loses, he's a old fogey who should have stayed on the park bench instead of running for President.
I didn't vote for Biden in the primary, but was happy to vote for him in the general.

The list of candidates that could have been in the general election that are preferable to Trump is long. There's a long way to go before I'd balk. I mean, Tulsi Gabbard is getting closer...
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:03 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.