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Tags 2020 elections , joe biden , presidential candidates

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Old 6th November 2020, 11:17 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
You're solidly in the realm of alternate universe here. Utterly divorced from fact.

For what nothing it's worth, my first ever political contribution: Jerry Brown, opposing Clinton in the primary.
Yeah, Bill Clinton was the guy who rushed to Arkansas to oversee an execution, who was one of the "third way" dems that was supposed to rescue the dems from weak, limp-wristed, latte-sipping, ACLU-supporting blah blah superlefties like...Mike Dukakis.
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Old 6th November 2020, 11:31 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
First female VP!
I predict she'll be the first female POTUS too.
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Old 6th November 2020, 12:00 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The list of candidates that could have been in the general election that are preferable to Trump is long. There's a long way to go before I'd balk.
For me, one of those candidates I would vote for ahead of Trump is sitting on my lap, purring.

(I said to my wife, who was undecided, a couple of weeks ago that I would vote for our cat before I would vote for Trump. And I even specified that I meant Blackie, which we know in our family as the cat who is lovable, but dumb even by cat standards.)
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Old 6th November 2020, 01:46 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For me, one of those candidates I would vote for ahead of Trump is sitting on my lap, purring.

,
Your wife?
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Old 6th November 2020, 01:50 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Your wife?
Those were the days.
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Old 6th November 2020, 02:30 PM   #126
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I sure hope Biden doesn't wear tan suits, or eat dijon mustard, or fist bump his wife, or play golf once or twice a month....

The country couldn't survive another president engaging in those kinds of terrorist-like activities again!
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Old 6th November 2020, 04:01 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
I sure hope Biden doesn't wear tan suits, or eat dijon mustard, or fist bump his wife, or play golf once or twice a month....

The country couldn't survive another president engaging in those kinds of terrorist-like activities again!
Get ready for all the Biden scandals for the next 4 years. Just like the ones you described.
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Old 6th November 2020, 04:06 PM   #128
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Hm. Does this mean we have no First Lady now? I hope the VP isn't pressed into service to fill the role...
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Old 6th November 2020, 04:38 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Hm. Does this mean we have no First Lady now? I hope the VP isn't pressed into service to fill the role...
Jill Biden
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Old 6th November 2020, 05:39 PM   #130
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BTW Biden will be the second President who is a practicing Catholic.
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Old 6th November 2020, 06:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Whoa. I didn't know he'd remarried, and really didn't know he had a daughter my age. That's the second US president with a daughter my age.
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Old 6th November 2020, 09:54 PM   #132
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OK, yall convinced me to watch some Bill Clinton 1992 speeches to recheck everybody's 28-year-old memories of what he was like before taking office, including mine. There are plenty of those videos online. I've watched a couple of them now, adding up to a couple of hours of video time, although I did skip through some introductions & clapping periods.

So, what did he say...
  • appreciation for a "noe more status quoe" sign somebody was holding (potatoe reference I presume)
  • change, change, change... "The American people have voted to make a new beginning"... change change change...
  • pointing out the economic trend toward people doing more work and getting less income for it
  • saying the American Dream has become too much of a "struggle"
  • criticizing Bush 1 for shifting money up from the poor to the rich
  • saying the government should "invest in our people" more
  • "put people first" instead of "putting money first"
  • a lot about how exorbitant college costs are (one of these speeches was at a college)
  • proposal for more college grant & loan money and a change in how it's managed
  • proposal for higher taxes on the rich
  • listing a few issues he saw as particularly important: AIDS, environment, and converting our spending from "defense giant" to "domestic giant"
  • description of USA as "under-educated" and "under-invested" (there were two more "under"s but they were "organized" and "led", which could come from anybody)
The theme was a lefty theme and every single policy point was a lefty policy point. He mostly sounded like Bernie. This is no surprise, since it also fits perfectly with his official campaign slogans "It's Time to Change America" and "For People, for a Change" and "Putting People First".

But the goal was to try to find centrist/righty things I had either not noticed in the first place or forgotten since then. So I made a point of collecting as much as I could even stretch & contort into maybe possibly sounding righty-ish from the perspective of somebody trying to strain as much rightiness, or at least non-leftiness, as possible out of anything & everything...
  • He did suggest hiring more police, which doesn't sound righty or lefty to me. I remember that the idea was being talked about in general at the time but not whether it split along party lines or right/left lines. Hm... now that I wrote that, I seem to recall Rush saying it sounded silly/pointless.
  • He also mentioned getting government bureaucracies to be smaller & cheaper, which sounds like he was accepting the premise that they were too big & expensive, but his answer to it was not to have them quit doing what they do, but to have them do the same stuff more efficiently.
  • He referred to the USA as a "republic" once. But he also referred to the way it runs itself as a "democracy" or "democratic" repeatedly.
  • There were lots of references to Republicans and Perot-ites in a welcoming, cooperative tone. Some quotes include literally "I welcome their cooperation" and "bring our people together" and "we're all in this together" and even "unity". But it was entirely about treating them with decency & respect instead of hostility & hatred, and welcoming their help if they were to come to his positions, not that he agreed with theirs or would move to theirs.

Mission failed; there's not a single solidly un-lefty thing in there when he's talking about what government should actually do. At best, there's one that doesn't really have left & right sides and one that you could say accepted a righty premise but still gave it a lefty answer, totaling a couple of minutes surrounded by a couple of hours of leftiness. I'm sure nearly all politicians have a few points against their own overall trends like that. All I could get otherwise was a rather uncontroversial (especially back then) word choice (on which he still used the alternative more) and a tone of togetherness, and even that was just togetherness with anybody who'd be willing to join him on his goals, not rolling over for others' goals just to get together.

The actual contents of his own slogans & speeches from back then really only allow two honest ways for anybody to call his campaign moderate now:
1. Remembering how he governed and blurring it all together in memory as if his governance must have reflected his campaign
2. Mistaking a respectful, polite attitude & approach to the opposition for agreement or acquiescence. (Yes, it is possible to fail to shriek about somebody else being a demon from Hell but still actually be opposed to them. The Democrats would be in much better shape today if they understood & accepted that.)

================================================== =

And the funny thing about all that is that it wouldn't really change much anyway even if this had turned out otherwise. The general premise that centrist Democrat campaigns win and leftist Democrat campaigns lose would still be false overall; the examples proving it false would have just been one 1992 data point less overwhelming.

Last edited by Delvo; 6th November 2020 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 6th November 2020, 10:21 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
OK, yall convinced me to watch some Bill Clinton 1992 speeches to recheck everybody's 28-year-old memories of what he was like before taking office, including mine. There are plenty of those videos online. I've watched a couple of them now, adding up to a couple of hours of video time, although I did skip through some introductions & clapping periods.

So, what did he say...
  • appreciation for a "noe more status quoe" sign somebody was holding (potatoe reference I presume)
  • change, change, change... "The American people have voted to make a new beginning"... change change change...
  • pointing out the economic trend toward people doing more work and getting less income for it
  • saying the American Dream has become too much of a "struggle"
  • criticizing Bush 1 for shifting money up from the poor to the rich
  • saying the government should "invest in our people" more
  • "put people first" instead of "putting money first"
  • a lot about how exorbitant college costs are (one of these speeches was at a college)
  • proposal for more college grant & loan money and a change in how it's managed
  • proposal for higher taxes on the rich
  • listing a few issues he saw as particularly important: AIDS, environment, and converting our spending from "defense giant" to "domestic giant"
  • description of USA as "under-educated" and "under-invested" (there were two more "under"s but they were "organized" and "led", which could come from anybody)
The theme was a lefty theme and every single policy point was a lefty policy point. He mostly sounded like Bernie. This is no surprise, since it also fits perfectly with his official campaign slogans "It's Time to Change America" and "For People, for a Change" and "Putting People First".

But the goal was to try to find centrist/righty things I had either not noticed in the first place or forgotten since then. So I made a point of collecting as much as I could even stretch & contort into maybe possibly sounding righty-ish from the perspective of somebody trying to strain as much rightiness, or at least non-leftiness, as possible out of anything & everything...
  • He did suggest hiring more police, which doesn't sound righty or lefty to me. I remember that the idea was being talked about in general at the time but not whether it split along party lines or right/left lines. Hm... now that I wrote that, I seem to recall Rush saying it sounded silly/pointless.
  • He also mentioned getting government bureaucracies to be smaller & cheaper, which sounds like he was accepting the premise that they were too big & expensive, but his answer to it was not to have them quit doing what they do, but to have them do the same stuff more efficiently.
  • He referred to the USA as a "republic" once. But he also referred to the way it runs itself as a "democracy" or "democratic" repeatedly.
  • There were lots of references to Republicans and Perot-ites in a welcoming, cooperative tone. Some quotes include literally "I welcome their cooperation" and "bring our people together" and "we're all in this together" and even "unity". But it was entirely about treating them with decency & respect instead of hostility & hatred, and welcoming their help if they were to come to his positions, not that he agreed with theirs or would move to theirs.

Mission failed; there's not a single solidly un-lefty thing in there when he's talking about what government should actually do. At best, there's one that isn't doesn't really have let & right sides and one that you could say accepted a righty premise but still gave it a lefty answer, totaling a couple of minutes surrounded by a couple of hours of leftiness. I'm sure nearly all politicians have a few points against their own overall trends like that. All I could get otherwise was a rather uncontroversial (especially back then) word choice (on which he still used the alternative more) and a tone of togetherness, and even that was just togetherness with anybody who'd be willing to join him on his goals, not rolling over for others' goals just to get together.

The actual contents of his own slogans & speeches from back then really only allow two honest ways for anybody to call his campaign moderate now:
1. Remembering how he governed and blurring it all together in memory as if his governance must have reflected his campaign
2. Mistaking a respectful, polite attitude & approach to the opposition for agreement or acquiescence. (Yes, it is possible to fail to shriek about somebody else being a demon from Hell but still actually be opposed to them. The Democrats would be in much better shape today if they understood & accepted that.)

================================================== =

And the funny thing about all that is that it wouldn't really change much anyway even if this had turned out otherwise. The general premise that centrist Democrats win and leftist Democrats lose would still be false overall; the examples proving it false would have just been one data point less overwhelming.
Lets see, yes Clinton tried to have it both ways in his speeches. I agree.

But he certainly wasn't much of a lefty in practice. His administration definitely slowed the growth of government. He pushed for harsher penalties for criminals and hiring 100,000 new police officers. He did everything he could to appear tough on crime. And it resulted in a great many people to be incarcerated for too long for non-violent crimes.

He cut military spending and was fiscally responsible. His administration is the only Presidency since before the Great Depression to reduce the deficit. He reformed the Civil Service bureau. He weakened banking regulations including ended Glass Steagall with the Banking and Insurance reform Acts. He implemented Don't ask, don't tell regarding Gays in the military which actually resulted in more gay and lesbian soldiers being drummed out of the military. Bill Clinton was a member of Democratic Leadership Council a right wing part of the party.

Yes Clinton was to the left lof Bush and Reagan but he wasn't close to being a lefty in the general sense.
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Old 6th November 2020, 11:51 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
If a big reason Trump got Florida was that his campaign was able to sell the "Biden is a socialist" lie to the Cubans, imagine what they could have done with a guy who actually calls himself a socialist.
Including some pretty damaging videos with Biden praising Castro.
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Old 7th November 2020, 01:49 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Including some pretty damaging videos with Biden praising Castro.
and a massive, quite probably Russia-supported fake news rumor campaign about Biden's Baby Eating Bonanza.
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Old 7th November 2020, 05:21 AM   #136
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This is a debate I have been having with some friends. Personally, I think Sanders would have been better, but I acknowledge that Biden was not only the choice of the Democrats (and of course, of America overall), but also that he probably had a broader appeal in the end than Sanders.

I have now come to think that even if people did not particularly like Biden, they would have been more likely to put up with him than Trump, Sanders or Clinton. I decided to ask some Americans. One of them said he is pretty sure his parents voted Biden, but absolutely would not have voted for Sanders. He emphasized they would "never" vote for Sanders, and he is pretty sure that goes for a lot of older people. This is also where the polls that we have say the same thing about Americans not wanting to vote for any self-proclaimed socialist (and that also goes for atheists).

Moreover, when we look at where the Squad has been successful, it is largely in extremely blue districts, and in some cases (from what I can gather) it looks like they were not even competitive races except for the Democratic primary.

If the progressives stood much of a chance on a national ballot, then we would have seen them win in districts and state senate races across the country, and not only in places that would always have voted Democrat anyway.

Are there any examples of progressives beating Republicans in red states, either in Congressional, Senate or gubernatorial races? It doesn't look like it at the moment.
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Old 7th November 2020, 06:28 AM   #137
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"The first thing that's gonna make me fly into a rage is people complaining that Biden and/or his administration is 'Boring.'

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Old 7th November 2020, 06:55 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
<snip deeply confused wall of text>
Deeply confused wall of text notwithstanding, Clinton was a moderate on steroids. Mr. Triangulation. Jerry Brown was the insurgent leftie.

Don't let reality get in the way of your whimsical fantasies.
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Old 7th November 2020, 07:04 AM   #139
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Okay guys you have to understand something.

This is all a farce.

It's not the Biden isn't "progressive" enough. It's that he's not confrontational enough.

Since Biden isn't out there with a chip on his shoulder picking a fight with everyone and doing literally nothing but bitching about "da system" backing him doesn't make you feel like a revolutionary.
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Old 7th November 2020, 07:37 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Possibly young people. Turnout for young people was low in the primaries yeah, but also low in this general.
If Sanders couldn't get them to come out to the primaries to vote for him, then frankly why would he have been extra successful getting them to come out for him in the general?

And again, this involves believing that those young people would have made up for all the older people who thought the Democrats had decided to put up Fidel Castro and Joseph Stalin's lovechild as the nominee.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th November 2020, 08:47 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay guys you have to understand something.

This is all a farce.

It's not the Biden isn't "progressive" enough. It's that he's not confrontational enough.

Since Biden isn't out there with a chip on his shoulder picking a fight with everyone and doing literally nothing but bitching about "da system" backing him doesn't make you feel like a revolutionary.
And with the gop senate, we're going to be treated to a favorite Dem pasttime: Pretend potus is omnipotent while eating our own.
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Old 7th November 2020, 09:15 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Whoa. I didn't know he'd remarried, and really didn't know he had a daughter my age. That's the second US president with a daughter my age.
What? He married Jill in 1977. Who did you think that blonde woman standing next to him everywhere was?
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Old 7th November 2020, 09:17 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Including some pretty damaging videos with Biden praising Castro.
Biden? You sure that wasn't Sanders? Biden has said he wanted to restore the Obama policy about Cuba. But I can't imagine him saying much good about Castro.
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Old 7th November 2020, 09:18 AM   #144
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NBC just called it for Biden.
https://www.nbcnews.com/

Last edited by Bob001; 7th November 2020 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 7th November 2020, 09:53 AM   #145
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Time to change the thread title!!!

Biden is President!
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Old 7th November 2020, 04:12 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Biden? You sure that wasn't Sanders? Biden has said he wanted to restore the Obama policy about Cuba. But I can't imagine him saying much good about Castro.
I think SG meant it hypothetically. As in imagine Bidenís chances if there were video of him praising Castro as there is in Sandersís case.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th November 2020, 06:48 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What? He married Jill in 1977. Who did you think that blonde woman standing next to him everywhere was?
I can barely recognize Biden, probably can't recognize Harris if she's not standing next to him, and it's interesting that they married the same year my parents did as well as having a daughter the same year I was born.
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Old 7th November 2020, 08:00 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
And an African American at that! I haven't seen much news being made about either of those facts recently, and am kinda glad. It doesn't feel abnormal to have a black woman as Vice President, and it shouldn't. We have a decent, competent person in the role and that should be enough. I'm happy for her, and for us.
Kamala isn't an African American. Her father is Jamaican and her mother was Indian. That makes her black, not a person of colour if you prefer, but she isn't and African American.

While it was progress to have Obama in 2008/12, and now Kamala in 2020, I have to admit, that it won't really show that the US is getting there until they actually elect a black woman or man who has ancestors who were brought to the US as slaves to one of the top two jobs.
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Old 7th November 2020, 08:10 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Kamala isn't an African American. Her father is Jamaican and her mother was Indian. That makes her black, not a person of colour if you prefer, but she isn't and African American.

While it was progress to have Obama in 2008/12, and now Kamala in 2020, I have to admit, that it won't really show that the US is getting there until they actually elect a black woman or man who has ancestors who were brought to the US as slaves to one of the top two jobs.
This is my quiet thought as well. However, people in the present never point that out and Obama and Harris are considered for all intents and purposes African American. It's not like Americans would care to make the distinction unless it's out of genuine curiosity or hate.

But it's true that the people we traditionally think of as African American haven't had someone among them get to that high a position. It's at most a fun fact. In practice, we already know how white America treats a dark president with Afro-textured hair.
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Old 7th November 2020, 08:30 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Kamala isn't an African American. Her father is Jamaican and her mother was Indian. That makes her black, not a person of colour if you prefer, but she isn't and African American.

While it was progress to have Obama in 2008/12, and now Kamala in 2020, I have to admit, that it won't really show that the US is getting there until they actually elect a black woman or man who has ancestors who were brought to the US as slaves to one of the top two jobs.
But, her Jamaican father presumably had African ancestry. She is an American of African ancestry. That's enough to be considered African-American, isn't it? And while her ancestors were not brought to the US as slaves, they were probably brought to the New World as slaves. (At least, the ancestors on her father's side.)
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Old 7th November 2020, 08:33 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Kamala isn't an African American. Her father is Jamaican and her mother was Indian. That makes her black, not a person of colour if you prefer, but she isn't and African American.

While it was progress to have Obama in 2008/12, and now Kamala in 2020, I have to admit, that it won't really show that the US is getting there until they actually elect a black woman or man who has ancestors who were brought to the US as slaves to one of the top two jobs.
I always laugh when people argue technicalities like this. Ever been to Jamaica? Aren't most of their citizens of African descent? Weren't most of those persons brought to Jamaica as slaves? They were.

Jamaica was a British colony or protectorate. Britain abolished the slave trade in 1807, but emancipation in Jamaica wasn't declared until 1834 and full rights weren't granted to the slaves until 1838. And even with full rights as British citizens, they were treated as second class citizens. Most continued to be indentured to their owners for decades.

Now I do not know precisely Kamala Harris's ethnic makeup but I don't doubt for a second that she is an African American. FYI, geographically speaking the Caribbean nations are considered part of the Americas.

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Old 7th November 2020, 08:41 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
.....
Now I do not know precisely Kamala Harris's ethnic makeup but I don't doubt for a second that she is an African American. FYI, geographically speaking the Caribbean nations are considered part of the Americas.
.....
Genealogy is for scholars. If cab drivers see her as African-American and drive on by, that's enough.
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Old 7th November 2020, 08:50 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Kamala isn't an African American. Her father is Jamaican and her mother was Indian. That makes her black, not a person of colour if you prefer, but she isn't and African American.

While it was progress to have Obama in 2008/12, and now Kamala in 2020, I have to admit, that it won't really show that the US is getting there until they actually elect a black woman or man who has ancestors who were brought to the US as slaves to one of the top two jobs.
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
This is my quiet thought as well. However, people in the present never point that out and Obama and Harris are considered for all intents and purposes African American. It's not like Americans would care to make the distinction unless it's out of genuine curiosity or hate.

But it's true that the people we traditionally think of as African American haven't had someone among them get to that high a position. It's at most a fun fact. In practice, we already know how white America treats a dark president with Afro-textured hair.
There was a Japanese politician who caused controversy for saying Obama was the descendant of slaves. It looks like he was trying to say something positive about America's acceptance of a black president, but some people didn't see it that way:

Quote:
ďToday, America has a black person as President. A person who inherits black peopleís blood. Frankly speaking, they were slaves,Ē he said Wednesday, then went on to explain how civil rights improved in the U.S. ďBack at the beginning of U.S. history, it would have been unthinkable that a black person, a slave, would become President. Thatís how dynamic a transformation this country makes.Ē

Opposition lawmakers demanded Maruyama resign over the comment, but it wasnít clear what they considered insulting, except it could have sounded racist and seemed mistaken about his ancestry. Obamaís father was from Kenya. The president has spoken often about Americaís racial history and what it means for him to be the first black U.S. president.
https://apnews.com/5ffed7da3d3c4f219...g-obama-slaves
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Old 7th November 2020, 08:56 PM   #154
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If "Yeah the first black woman elected to the executive office isn't black enough..." doesn't sum up the "Nothing is ever good enough" problem with the Left I'm not sure what possibly could.
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Old 7th November 2020, 08:59 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Genealogy is for scholars. If cab drivers see her as African-American and drive on by, that's enough.
Can't argue with that. Phantom Wolf is trying to make a liar out of Kamala Harris using slight of hand.

It would be great if we lived in a world without second class citizens much less second class citizens simply because of their skin color. But that is a fairy tale.
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Old 7th November 2020, 10:40 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
and a massive, quite probably Russia-supported fake news rumor campaign about Biden's Baby Eating Bonanza.
I didn't see Biden even when you used it on purpose to point it out.

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Old 7th November 2020, 10:42 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Biden? You sure that wasn't Sanders? Biden has said he wanted to restore the Obama policy about Cuba. But I can't imagine him saying much good about Castro.
Ooops.

No wonder The Great Zag was being sarcastic. It's been a long day.
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Old 7th November 2020, 10:44 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Including some pretty damaging videos with Biden Sanders praising Castro.
Way too late to edit.
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Old 7th November 2020, 10:47 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Kamala isn't an African American. Her father is Jamaican and her mother was Indian. That makes her black, not a person of colour if you prefer, but she isn't and African American.

While it was progress to have Obama in 2008/12, and now Kamala in 2020, I have to admit, that it won't really show that the US is getting there until they actually elect a black woman or man who has ancestors who were brought to the US as slaves to one of the top two jobs.
How do you think blacks got to the Caribbean?
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Old 7th November 2020, 10:49 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think SG meant it hypothetically. As in imagine Bidenís chances if there were video of him praising Castro as there is in Sandersís case.
No, I said Biden and meant Sanders.
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