IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 5th November 2020, 06:45 PM   #81
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
To my mind the elephant in the room is income inequality and the concentration of wealth, which continues to increase. This isn't just a US issue, it's global. Parties which can make this issue central and own it with well-targeted policies are likely to prosper. Time to bring back class-identity in politics (without calling it that, of course).
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 06:46 PM   #82
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'd be interested to find out if many of those black voters are turned off the Dems by the gun control idea.
I wonder how many want to bring on the boogaloo.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 07:02 PM   #83
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The reason she is hated is because she threatens the GOP. They've been on an obsessive mission to trash her the same way they did to Clinton.

She looks unpopular because she's effective.
Ain't that always the way? What Pelosi has done is a matter of record; the volume of opinion is a measure of its difficulty. FWIW she's impressed me over the last few years.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 07:50 PM   #84
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,854
What impressed you more? Her trying to to stop the impeachment, or her going along with it when she couldn't stop it?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 07:56 PM   #85
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,796
Without the Impeachment, the Hunter laptop story would have been way more impactful.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 07:57 PM   #86
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What impressed you more? Her trying to to stop the impeachment, or her going along with it when she couldn't stop it?
Pelosi's been involved in more than that. The impeachment is hardly the defining event of her career, nor the Trump term, for that matter.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 07:59 PM   #87
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,414
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
To my mind the elephant in the room is income inequality and the concentration of wealth, which continues to increase. This isn't just a US issue, it's global. Parties which can make this issue central and own it with well-targeted policies are likely to prosper. Time to bring back class-identity in politics (without calling it that, of course).
The power to change things has long gone from politicians' hands - it's now up to the people to act.

I'm betting they don't.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I wonder how many want to bring on the boogaloo.
Haha!

I don't think any of them voted blue, or would. Their hero is the bloke squatting at the White House.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 08:02 PM   #88
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Without the Impeachment, the Hunter laptop story would have been way more impactful.
As it happens. It was a toss-up issue, though, and not one to honestly judge someone on. It did happen. It did reveal the GOP starkly to those with eyes to see. It did demean the US in the outside world, not by its existence but by its outcome. And its practical impact was nil.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 08:03 PM   #89
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,854
For me, Nancy's defining moment was when she said they had to pass a law to find out what was in the law.

But there have been what? Three presidential impeachments in living memory? And Pelosi presided over one of them. Should be in your top three defining moments, I think.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 08:21 PM   #90
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The power to change things has long gone from politicians' hands - it's now up to the people to act.

I'm betting they don't.
I'm still strumming Woodie Guthrie songs.


Quote:
Haha!

I don't think any of them voted blue, or would. Their hero is the bloke squatting at the White House.
Sorry I was using "bringing on the boogaloo" in the general sense of immanentising the eschaton. There are people on both sides itching for it to go off.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 08:24 PM   #91
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For me, Nancy's defining moment was when she said they had to pass a law to find out what was in the law.

But there have been what? Three presidential impeachments in living memory? And Pelosi presided over one of them. Should be in your top three defining moments, I think.
"For me" and " I think" pretty much sums that up for me, given my experience of your contributions here.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 09:47 PM   #92
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,878
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5...nds-into-chaos

"I don't belong to any organized Political party. I am a Democrat".

Will Rogers.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 09:59 PM   #93
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,734
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sorry, but the facts disagree with you.

Even if every person who voted Trump is counted, her unpopularity would be 49%.

It's -53.6%. Plenty of Democrats hate her too, with only 36% of people viewing her favourably. ...
You think Democrats aren't influenced by the propaganda against Pelosi?

That's the target market, make it look like Pelosi is harming the Democrats. Egg-on the Sanders crowd to make it look like Pelosi is too old school.

It's marketing 101.
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:15 PM   #94
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5...nds-into-chaos

"I don't belong to any organized Political party. I am a Democrat".

Will Rogers.
"Like herding cats".


One of the enduring amusements of US politics is the notion that, behind its public facade, the Democratic Party is a tight-knit Leninist organisation intent on surrendering the country to Moscow/Castro/welfare queens/ISIS, whatever the thing of the day is. The Republican Party, in contrast, is quite open about its regimentation and thus the honest party.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:20 PM   #95
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,878
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
"Like herding cats".


One of the enduring amusements of US politics is the notion that, behind its public facade, the Democratic Party is a tight-knit Leninist organisation intent on surrendering the country to Moscow/Castro/welfare queens/ISIS, whatever the thing of the day is. The Republican Party, in contrast, is quite open about its regimentation and thus the honest party.
I am sure the GOP has fights just like this one, but they keep them out of the public's eye.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 10:38 PM   #96
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 24,878
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am sure the GOP has fights just like this one, but they keep them out of the public's eye.
They're disciplined and they have effective gate-keepers. The Tea Party threw that into some disarray, but were quickly assimilated. The same may happen with Q-Anon.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 11:30 PM   #97
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,177
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Indeed. The Latinos taken into the US after the Mexican were already a diverse group, while there's been diversity in Latino immigration since. African-Americans were pretty much all in the same case in the 1860's, and there's not been much African immigration since, hence much less diversity now. Biden made reference to this, I think, during the campaign, but rather clumsily and was pounced on for it.
Yes, he did, and he was.

(If only the forum had an Afro-Latino with southern US roots who could repeatedly point this out, and also that black Americans are generally socially conservative but completely disgusted by the Southern Strategy, Nixon/Reagan/Dolt 45's open white supremacism, and the GOP's decades-long habit of targeting black people for disinvestment and voter suppression...)
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2020, 11:36 PM   #98
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,932
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Indeed. The Latinos taken into the US after the Mexican were already a diverse group, while there's been diversity in Latino immigration since. African-Americans were pretty much all in the same case in the 1860's, and there's not been much African immigration since, hence much less diversity now. Biden made reference to this, I think, during the campaign, but rather clumsily and was pounced on for it.

Is this relevant?

The black immigrant population has increased fivefold since 1980. There were 4.2 million black immigrants living in the U.S. in 2016, up from just 816,000 in 1980, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of U.S. Census Bureau data. Since 2000 alone, the number of black immigrants living in the country has risen 71%. Now, roughly one-in-ten blacks (9%) living in the U.S. are foreign born, according to 2016 American Community Survey data, up from 3% in 1980. (Immigrants make up 10% of the black population in the March 2016 Current Population Survey.)

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ts-in-the-u-s/
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 05:38 AM   #99
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
I join the rest of decent society in celebrating the removal of Trump, but the narrow Biden win does not mean it was a good election for Democrats. The Democrats are on track to lose seats in Congress, and they almost certainly will be the minority in the Senate, greatly limiting the ability of the Biden administration to enact policy. Democrats vastly underperformed based on projections, and more importantly, failed to actually win uncontested power. We're looking at at least 2 years of gridlock while McConnell fiddles while the country burns, and this will only help the conservative political machine.

An interesting example case out of Florida. Democrats took major losses, including in "safe" seats. Meanwhile, a minimum wage ballot referendum passed with 60% support.

Quote:
Orlando Rep. Anna Eskamani, one of the Democratic Party’s liberal rising stars who was elected in 2018 and easily won re-election Tuesday, said that party leaders made a tactical error when they did not openly endorse the minimum wage amendment — which passed with more than 60 percent of the vote — because the party is dependent on corporate donors who opposed the initiative.
https://www.tampabay.com/news/florid...ection-losses/

Progressive policies are popular in this country, but the Democrats again and again refuse to adopt them as policy.

Quote:
Her conclusion: “Without a doubt the Democratic Party needs to clean house. We keep using the same consultants, and none of the consultants are going to say anything because they are making money.”
The corporate Democrats are holding the party back.

Much of the country is very socially conservative, but are open to economically liberal or even progressive policies, which the corporate democrats refuse to adopt because it runs counter to the interests of their wealthy donors.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 6th November 2020 at 05:42 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 05:52 AM   #100
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,346
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I join the rest of decent society in celebrating the removal of Trump, but the narrow Biden win does not mean it was a good election for Democrats.
Please define narrow, because I'm not seeing how 4+ million more votes than Trump and potentially 306 EC votes can be construed as narrow. Frankly it seems you are inclined to just keep moving the goalposts of expectation so you can carry on claiming Biden was a bad choice.

Quote:
Orlando Rep. Anna Eskamani, one of the Democratic Partyís liberal rising stars who was elected in 2018 and easily won re-election Tuesday, said that party leaders made a tactical error when they did not openly endorse the minimum wage amendment ó which passed with more than 60 percent of the vote ó because the party is dependent on corporate donors who opposed the initiative.
Sure people are in favour of increasing the minimum wage, doesn't mean that it would be anywhere near the top of the list of reasons for why they choose to vote for a particular party.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 05:54 AM   #101
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,878
I think the Dems have to l remember that old,old, but very true statment that "It not what you say, but how you say it, that makes or breaks a case".
The left wing rhetoric did not help matters;to most people "defund the police" is batcrap crazy. Talk about reforming the police, people will listen.
problem is too many progressives live in a cacoon where other progressives are just about the only people they talk to. They forget how wierd some of their rhetoric sounds to people who are not true beleivers.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 05:58 AM   #102
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Please define narrow, because I'm not seeing how 4+ million more votes than Trump and potentially 306 EC votes can be construed as narrow. Frankly it seems you are inclined to just keep moving the goalposts of expectation so you can carry on claiming Biden was a bad choice.
It's narrow in the sense that we are waiting to see if Biden carries a handful of states by fractions of a percentage point to determine the election. Democrats winning the popular vote is a given. That doesn't matter in our system and you know it, so spare me this nonsense.

Democrats went into this election thinking they were going to come out with control of the Senate and then some. They have failed, and the consequences will undermine the entire Biden agenda. That's a failure any way you look at it. Not a total failure, because they captured the presidency, but a poor performance nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Garrison
Sure people are in favour of increasing the minimum wage, doesn't mean that it would be anywhere near the top of the list of reasons for why they choose to vote for a particular party.
Sure, I'm not suggesting that a single issue would have swung this election. I think it's instructive that we see our leftmost party distancing itself from popular, left wing ballot initiatives.

Supporting popular policies that are consistent with a wider political ideology to improve people's lives is a good way to build political power. The fact that Democrats routinely refuse to do so, even in cases where it is obvious that such policies are generally popular, shows that their motivations are skewed.

Why do you think the party doesn't support a popular measure like increasing the minimum wage?
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 6th November 2020 at 06:00 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 06:04 AM   #103
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,346
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's narrow in the sense that we are waiting to see if Biden carries a handful of states by fractions of a percentage point to determine the election. Democrats winning the popular vote is a given. That doesn't matter in our system and you know it, so spare me this nonsense.
So you can't answer the question, pretty much what I thought.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 06:05 AM   #104
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So you can't answer the question, pretty much what I thought.
I thought I did, but ok. I'm speaking more broadly than just Biden. Democrats did not take the Senate as expected, generally underperformed the polls, and are just barely grasping a win by a nose in a handful of swing states for Biden. I suppose they can't be held accountable for the polls, but the fact remains that Biden will almost certainly be facing a McConnell controlled Senate, greatly limiting the administration's ability to achieve political goals.

Feel free to answer mine though. Why do you think Democrats refused to advocate a minimum wage hike that has general, non-partisan appeal?
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 6th November 2020 at 06:13 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 06:14 AM   #105
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,346
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I thought I did, but ok.

Feel free to answer mine though.
The problem with your stance is that I've heard it All before here in the UK. Foot in the 80's with Militant Tendency, Corbyn and Momentum in the here and now. Convinced the electorate is just begging for a radical socialist agenda and when the electorate reject it the problem was clearly not being radical enough. Perish the thought that the electorate might be far more conservative than a few polls suggest they are.

Has it occurred to you for one minute that just maybe the US electorate in the here and now doesn't want another four year roller-coaster ride? That Biden is beating Trump precisely because he comes across as restrained and quiet rather than a firebrand radical?

Well of course not, after ideological purity is far more important
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 06:24 AM   #106
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
The problem with your stance is that I've heard it All before here in the UK. Foot in the 80's with Militant Tendency, Corbyn and Momentum in the here and now. Convinced the electorate is just begging for a radical socialist agenda and when the electorate reject it the problem was clearly not being radical enough. Perish the thought that the electorate might be far more conservative than a few polls suggest they are.

Has it occurred to you for one minute that just maybe the US electorate in the here and now doesn't want another four year roller-coaster ride? That Biden is beating Trump precisely because he comes across as restrained and quiet rather than a firebrand radical?

Well of course not, after ideological purity is far more important
Well if there's one thing for sure, whatever once was, shall forever be.

Honestly I'm really trying to imagine what UK electoral politics in the 80's has to do with anything, but I'm coming up blank.

Try to remember what lead to Trump in the United States. It was 8 years of the Obama presidency followed by a vicious right wing reaction. We're heading back into a similar situation, where a centrist democratic president is stymied by a McConnell controlled Senate that refuses to act as working people are seeing quality of life decline.

Does anyone think McConnell will approve a stimulus bill to address the Covid economic slump in 2021? Not their presidency , not their problem. Let the people howl.

Healthcare costs will continue to climb. Wages will remain stagnant. The rich will get richer while decent middle class life evaporates. Biden will have no solutions for this, and any minor adjustments he might propose will be stonewalled by the Senate.

I'm sure this will be fine and won't cause any political friction.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 6th November 2020 at 06:26 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 06:37 AM   #107
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,154
I haven't seen any in-depth "cross tabs" data yet, but the demographic data I saw showed Biden improved with white men (compared to 2016) while Trump made gains with white women, African-American men and women, and Latino men and women.

Income and education were big factors last time and may have even become more acute, that would explain the divergence in voting patterns by ethnicity.

The democrats are possibly starting to lose working class/struggling people. The suburbs can't stay cushy and insulated from life forever. So we have to give them what they want (mostly just impossible), convince them something else we're offering will help (we suck at this), or tell them the former while doing the latter and hope they don't pay much attention (unethical, but it apparently works).
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 07:30 AM   #108
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Well if there's one thing for sure, whatever once was, shall forever be.

Honestly I'm really trying to imagine what UK electoral politics in the 80's has to do with anything, but I'm coming up blank.

Try to remember what lead to Trump in the United States. It was 8 years of the Obama presidency followed by a vicious right wing reaction. We're heading back into a similar situation, where a centrist democratic president is stymied by a McConnell controlled Senate that refuses to act as working people are seeing quality of life decline.

Does anyone think McConnell will approve a stimulus bill to address the Covid economic slump in 2021? Not their presidency , not their problem. Let the people howl.

Healthcare costs will continue to climb. Wages will remain stagnant. The rich will get richer while decent middle class life evaporates. Biden will have no solutions for this, and any minor adjustments he might propose will be stonewalled by the Senate.

I'm sure this will be fine and won't cause any political friction.
I think if they donít pass a stimulus ASAP they risk losing both GA runoffs.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 08:09 AM   #109
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,052
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I join the rest of decent society in celebrating the removal of Trump, but the narrow Biden win does not mean it was a good election for Democrats. The Democrats are on track to lose seats in Congress, and they almost certainly will be the minority in the Senate
The fact that Biden won and the Democrats' position otherwise slid shows both that the Biden vote was entirely a Not-Trump vote, and that most Democrats recently have been showing their complete worthless on everything else about their job other than not being Trump. They will continue to get results like that as long as they continue to be functionally no different from Republicans.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
...greatly limiting the ability of the Biden administration to enact policy.
Well, he's been saying he didn't want to actually do anything anyway. Anybody who ever pretended Biden would do the country any good was not only ignoring his record but also not listening to what Biden himself kept telling us lately.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Progressive policies are popular in this country, but the Democrats again and again refuse to adopt them as policy.
(Another topic example like the minimum-wage one you gave: several marijuana referenda in different places passed... while voters were not voting for Democrats.) And progressive politicians did better than standard-issue corporate Democrats even in the current general Democrat failure of an election. People mostly vote for the farthest-left option they have available, but that doesn't mean voting Democrat when the Democrat candidates put themselves no farther left than the Republicans.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 01:25 PM   #110
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,414
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the Dems have to l remember that old,old, but very true statment that "It not what you say, but how you say it, that makes or breaks a case".
The left wing rhetoric did not help matters;to most people "defund the police" is batcrap crazy. Talk about reforming the police, people will listen.
problem is too many progressives live in a cacoon where other progressives are just about the only people they talk to. They forget how wierd some of their rhetoric sounds to people who are not true beleivers.
It also gives the other side the ability to project those far-left statements onto all Democrats.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 01:52 PM   #111
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The fact that Biden won and the Democrats' position otherwise slid shows both that the Biden vote was entirely a Not-Trump vote, and that most Democrats recently have been showing their complete worthless on everything else about their job other than not being Trump. They will continue to get results like that as long as they continue to be functionally no different from Republicans.
I would wait for the results of the GA runoffs before saying that. Itís not unreasonable that they gain 3 senate seats.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 02:53 PM   #112
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 15,912
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Without the Impeachment, the Hunter laptop story would have been way more impactful.
Would it?

We have seen lots of talk from Rudy "I was just tucking my shirt in" Giuliani about "wait until y'all see what we've found on Hunter's laptop", but what was on it? We don't know, because they never showed it to us.
__________________
"Silence is Donald Trump's concession speech" - Lawrence O'Donnell.

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 02:58 PM   #113
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 15,912
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Well if there's one thing for sure, whatever once was, shall forever be.

Honestly I'm really trying to imagine what UK electoral politics in the 80's has to do with anything, but I'm coming up blank.

Try to remember what lead to Trump in the United States. It was 8 years of the Obama presidency followed by a vicious right wing reaction. We're heading back into a similar situation, where a centrist democratic president is stymied by a McConnell controlled Senate that refuses to act as working people are seeing quality of life decline.

Does anyone think McConnell will approve a stimulus bill to address the Covid economic slump in 2021? Not their presidency , not their problem. Let the people howl.

Healthcare costs will continue to climb. Wages will remain stagnant. The rich will get richer while decent middle class life evaporates. Biden will have no solutions for this, and any minor adjustments he might propose will be stonewalled by the Senate.

I'm sure this will be fine and won't cause any political friction.
Nah. Biden could just take a leaf out of Trump's handbook...

1. The House passes a bill

2. McConnell refuses to put it to a vote, or he does and the Senate rejects it.

3. Biden issues an Executive Order to make it happen.

If the Senate doesn't play ball, they will be made irrelevant (be honest they are an irrelevant "do nothing" political body already, and have been for years.)
__________________
"Silence is Donald Trump's concession speech" - Lawrence O'Donnell.

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 6th November 2020 at 03:01 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 04:58 PM   #114
AnonyMoose
Muse
 
AnonyMoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen
Posts: 960
Frothing at the mouth. Expect to see plenty of it for the next four years.

If Biden wins, the Cult of Deplorables are going to take action. They've been frothing at the mouth for 155 years, patiently waiting for the day they get their do-over.

Biden is not the person to tamp down these rabid dogs. He's not dirty/underhanded/conniving enough.... he's too kind-hearted and fair-playing. These people do not play fair, they play as dirty as they can possibly get. They're going to have Biden for lunch and then use his bones to clean their teeth. Steve Bannon's deplorable tweet is only a taste of what these animals are truly itching for.... A full out war with the 'other half' of the country. A do-over.

But until their wet dreams come true, in the meantime they'll neuter Biden and every other DNC president that might follow (like they've always done). They have their boots on every librul's neck and will now start to press down even harder (like they've always done). The GOP knows every trick in the book, and more importantly, they're better at this dog-eat-dog game.

But they're better at it because they have an end goal, a deep-seeded driving motivation that gets them out of bed every morning:

Gaining full control and owning every pinko commie librul is literally a religion to these people. From Monday to Saturday they fantasize about how they can "stick it to the libs". And then on Sunday they go to church with a big sated pious grin on their faces 'knowing' that they're doing god's work. They have no guilty feelings going to bed on Sunday night. As we all know, dogmatic beliefs are the most dangerous driving force over any other.



So.....

While you guys are carefully choosing your words and tiptoeing ever so cautiously trying to keep things friendly in an attempt to "work with the other side", the "other side" are gathering in their little corners of the internet cooking up ways to undermine every single thing the DNC tries to do until they gain full control of the country, in every way imaginable. Their way or the highway. There is no middle ground with these people.

Abortions? No middle ground.
Gay marriage? No middle ground.
Going green? No middle ground.
Equal representation of all peoples, no matter what colour/sexual orientation/religion? Nope. No fricken way. No middle ground.

These things are an abomination. A pox on everything they hold dear every Sunday morning at their local church. They will not rest until they've eradicated every single liberal progression forward.

The left just wants everyone to be treated equally... and to hug a tree every now and then. The right is the exact opposite. They believe (religiously) that the left is going to ruin the world if they get their way. God's work, and all that.

Trump gave oxygen to their way of thinking. Pandora's box has been opened... and there will be no stopping these people now.

Biden will just end up being a faint little skidmark on the road to getting America back into "god's good graces".
__________________
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips
AnonyMoose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 06:09 PM   #115
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,807
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nah. Biden could just take a leaf out of Trump's handbook...

1. The House passes a bill

2. McConnell refuses to put it to a vote, or he does and the Senate rejects it.

3. Biden issues an Executive Order to make it happen.

If the Senate doesn't play ball, they will be made irrelevant (be honest they are an irrelevant "do nothing" political body already, and have been for years.)
We've already seen this during the gridlock years of Obama. The POTUS does seem to have some pretty sweeping powers, especially in certain areas, but there are real limitations that can't be overcome by EO.

There is much work to be done that will require a cooperative legislative branch.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2020, 06:28 PM   #116
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,835
There's this odd unspoken concept among the right, that the Republicans are the default party of governance. It's not up to the Republicans to show or prove anything - they are the default. But if the Dems want to win an election, they need to prove it beyond doubt, with vast supermajorities - otherwise we just go back to the default.

It takes a big supermajority to override the default setting for rule of the United States.

It's the only explanation for why winning the election with six million more votes* than the opponent is somehow treated as a defeat such that we need to strategize how to move on beyond it.

The reality is that the GOP has lost the popular vote for 7 or the past 8 presidential elections and they depend heavily upon electoral college, gerrymandering and lopsided rural state power to maintain minority rule. They now openly run against democracy, based upon the false "democracy vs. republic" dichotomy. The trend is strengthening, but leads to instability.




*numbers are less now, but yet-uncounted west coast votes will push the numbers higher even if that has no electoral college impact.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2020, 08:58 AM   #117
Bubba
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,689
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
"Like herding cats".


One of the enduring amusements of US politics is the notion that, behind its public facade, the Democratic Party is a tight-knit Leninist organisation intent on surrendering the country to Moscow/Castro/welfare queens/ISIS, whatever the thing of the day is.


Time reveals all (except when the owners keep things hidden)

Last edited by Bubba; 7th November 2020 at 09:05 AM.
Bubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2020, 09:16 AM   #118
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,346
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
There's this odd unspoken concept among the right, that the Republicans are the default party of governance. It's not up to the Republicans to show or prove anything - they are the default. But if the Dems want to win an election, they need to prove it beyond doubt, with vast supermajorities - otherwise we just go back to the default.

It takes a big supermajority to override the default setting for rule of the United States.

It's the only explanation for why winning the election with six million more votes* than the opponent is somehow treated as a defeat such that we need to strategize how to move on beyond it.

The reality is that the GOP has lost the popular vote for 7 or the past 8 presidential elections and they depend heavily upon electoral college, gerrymandering and lopsided rural state power to maintain minority rule. They now openly run against democracy, based upon the false "democracy vs. republic" dichotomy. The trend is strengthening, but leads to instability.




*numbers are less now, but yet-uncounted west coast votes will push the numbers higher even if that has no electoral college impact.
Yeah it also means that when the Republicans do lose they see it as a mistake or an actual act of theft which they are entitled to ignore. Which feeds in to the increasingly shameless behaviour of the Republicans in Congress over the last few years. Hence the way they didn't even bother to try and rationalize appointing a Supreme Court Justice mere weeks before this election in contrast to their actions in 2016.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2020, 05:03 PM   #119
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,052
Things the Democrats need to do, not just for the good of the country, but even just for the good of their own party...

1. Always be trying to get stuff done, including when you might not succeed, instead of just saying you can't and sitting around waiting for the other side to do stuff and then maybe sometimes reacting to it. Sometimes people can succeed when they thought they wouldn't. But even when you don't, you need to be seen trying, and you need your opponents to be seen stopping you. Not only would this expose your opponents and avoid letting yourselves look useless (which your most recent general undereperformance is another result of), but also, keeping a subject in the public attention by fighting for it is how minds get changed so something that has failed before can succeed later.

2. Let go of declaring some large categories of Americans your enemies. And that includes the responses you're already thinking of right now about "but they're just so awful" and "but they do it" and "I don't care about their feelings", because that's just more of the same (and you already know it's not about sympathy anyway so that one is just dishonest). It's about cause & effect. Demonstrating your unreasonableness pushes away people who might have reasoned with you, which costs you votes. Demonstating your dishonesty in your attacks on them shows them that you can't be believed, which costs you votes. Accusing people of things they don't do/say/think/feel proves that you're not paying attention to what they actually do/say/think/feel, which tells them you have no intention of understanding their sitaution and thus no intention of doing anything that might improve it, which costs you votes. Declaring people your enemies causes them to accept that fact and agree that you must be theirs, which costs you votes. Costing yourself votes is dumb no matter how much you express your feelings (including your contempt for other people's alleged feelings) while you do it. And on top of all that stuff that isn't about those "fee-fees" some of you want to obsess over when nobody even mentioned them, even those matter too, when those feelings cause people to be against you on practical things that you want done. No matter how you feel about what they allegedly feel, this course of action is simply counterproductive to your own ability to get anything you want done.

3. Let go of the myth that running a conservative/moderate "I won't do anything the Republicans don't want me to do" campaign is how to win and pushing a progressive agenda is how to lose. Nothing could be further from reality. Not only has every Presidential election since before Reagan gone the opposite way from that, but relying on that opposite-world thinking is also how you've spent over a decade losing hundreds & hundreds & hundreds of seats all over the country. In this latest election, not only did the Democrats lose seats overall after spending the last couple of years doing nothing overall for the progressive wave that had put a bunch of them there in the first place, but it was the corporatist & half-Republican "Democrats" doing the losing. Every single Democrat who lost had opposed Medicare For All & police defunding, and every single swing-state Democrat who held had supported M4A, while 100% of progressive incumbents kept their seats and some more new progressives joined them, including not just in swing districts but also in previously solid red ones (back to the 1980s in one case). In the same election, the people passed referenda for higher wages, removal of an abortion restriction, more paid family leave time, drug decriminalizations, and a voting rights expansion. While Republicans claimed that this summer's protests made Democrats look bad, they actually brought on a sharp increase in DP registrations. Surveys keep showing that the people want progressive policies, even the word "socialist" doesn't harm someone's public image anymore, and the more these policies get talked about and fought for, the more their numbers increase. The one lone quasi-exception to this pattern is Biden, but his opponent was a deranged ferret whose idea of how to campaign was to run around trying to bite everybody during both a depression and a plague that he had personally deliberately blown up by orders of magnitude, so that election was such a give-away that winning by a non-overwhelming margin is still failing, and even if it weren't, one case wouldn't outweigh the entire last decade or two or four.

* * *

That was mostly with the legislature in mind; for Biden in particular, his top priority should be showing that he is willing and able to be different, not just from Trump but also from Obama. You can eliminate the hypocrisy accusation of "well you're on his case for doing it but you do it too" by being the first one to not do it. Think the kid-cages are bad? Have them replaced with something better. Think the drone-strike thing looks bad? Cancel the program, or knock it down to 5% of its current state or whatever. Think the "swamp" thing about appointing bankers & other corporate donors everywhere looks bad? Just don't do it; appoint somebody else.

Last edited by Delvo; 8th November 2020 at 06:27 PM.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2020, 06:43 PM   #120
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,058
We'll get over it. It can't be as bad as Trump and covid.

I don't expect Biden to go two terms. It's just like after Nixon.

How American politics goes
1 Republicans cut tax, let everything run down to barely working...8 years
2 Democrats fix public spending to normal...8 years
Rinse, repeat.

Last edited by Tero; 8th November 2020 at 06:47 PM.
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.