ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

Reply
Old 11th November 2020, 07:41 PM   #81
AnonyMoose
Muse
 
AnonyMoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen
Posts: 959
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Sure, a key first step would be controlling the military. Of course, there are many other steps he must take and many people have to cooperate with him to do so, none of which is very clear right now. He certainly has some full support, and some carefully worded support from a lot of people. At the same time, does anyone not see a world where Trump starts to demand an arrest warrant for Joe Biden and some of the GOP goes along with it?

No need to control the military. No need to arrest Biden. No need for any of that.

You guys are making the mistake of using prior history of banana republic examples of what a a coup d'etat looks like. But that doesn't have to be the case here. All the GOP has to do is 'prove' that Trump was the true winner of the election and not Biden. Cast a wide swath of doubt about the election results, and they've got the ball rolling.

The more important question is how they go about establishing their 'evidence' of a fraudulent election giving the win to Biden.

A coup d'etat is nothing more than an illegal stealing away of an existing legitimate government. Nothing more, nothing less. How one goes about doing that is neither here nor there.
__________________
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips
AnonyMoose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 07:42 PM   #82
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,927
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
For the fear mongerers that keep suggesting state legislators are possibly going to overturn their own state's vote and send in either faithless electors, or simply call the state for Trumpy...
Fearmongers such as the Jones Day lawyer on Team Trump whom Axios has on background:
https://www.axios.com/trump-electora...a62fe5149.html
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 11th November 2020 at 07:48 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 07:47 PM   #83
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,152
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Somebody on FacePie opines that Donnie is bringing in Rent-a-Lackeys to destroy files. That sounds more likely than anything as manly as a coup.
That seems to be Asha Rangappa's take on it.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 07:51 PM   #84
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,502
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Fearmongers such as the Jones Day lawyer whom Axios has on background:
https://www.axios.com/trump-electora...a62fe5149.html
I'm not suggesting for a minute anyone in this thread made this stuff up. Absolutely the media has been hyping these scenarios in multiple publications. All of them explain in tedious hypothetical detail how it is possible. And here's another one that names no states or anyone actually plotting to carry it out.
__________________
TRUMP IS A LOSER!
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 08:01 PM   #85
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,927
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not suggesting for a minute anyone in this thread made this stuff up. Absolutely the media has been hyping these scenarios in multiple publications. All of them explain in tedious hypothetical detail how it is possible. And here's another one that names no states or anyone actually plotting to carry it out.
Pretty sure Axios said precisely who is plotting.

Quote:
Trump and his team could try to block secretaries of state in contested states from certifying results. That could allow legislatures in those states to try to appoint new electors who favor Trump over Biden.
Also, it's not hypothetical. They are quoting someone from inside the team itself.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 11th November 2020 at 08:04 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 08:27 PM   #86
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
No need to control the military. No need to arrest Biden. No need for any of that.

You guys are making the mistake of using prior history of banana republic examples of what a a coup d'etat looks like. But that doesn't have to be the case here. All the GOP has to do is 'prove' that Trump was the true winner of the election and not Biden. Cast a wide swath of doubt about the election results, and they've got the ball rolling.

The more important question is how they go about establishing their 'evidence' of a fraudulent election giving the win to Biden.

A coup d'etat is nothing more than an illegal stealing away of an existing legitimate government. Nothing more, nothing less. How one goes about doing that is neither here nor there.
Well he's already ******* that up pretty bad
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 09:09 PM   #87
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,644
I think Trump is convinced that the Military will overthrow him, and his loyalists will prevent that/ give him time to go into exile.

Sounds like something he would worry about.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 09:47 PM   #88
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,502
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Pretty sure Axios said precisely who is plotting.

Also, it's not hypothetical. They are quoting someone from inside the team itself.
Which states? Where is the evidence it is more than hypothetical pondering?

I get it there is a path for Trump to do this. That doesn't take it past hypothetical.
__________________
TRUMP IS A LOSER!

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 11th November 2020 at 09:49 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 11:16 PM   #89
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,924
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
When facism comes to America it will be holding a Bible and humping a flag. Or however the saying goes.
And the 2nd Amendment "I need to have guns to fight the tyrannical Government" nuts will be standing beside it cheering it on.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 11:26 PM   #90
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 19,606
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did they in Germany?
Yes, certainly. Eight million Germans were signed up members of the NSDAP multiply that by three members per household and you can see how H built his base.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

Last edited by Vixen; 11th November 2020 at 11:29 PM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2020, 11:56 PM   #91
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,502
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, certainly. Eight million Germans were signed up members of the NSDAP multiply that by three members per household and you can see how H built his base.
Fortunately, Trump's base is shrinking, not growing.
__________________
TRUMP IS A LOSER!
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 12:07 AM   #92
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,343
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Fortunately, Trump's base is shrinking, not growing.
How do you calculate that?

By my reckoning, he got several million more votes than in 2016, which would tend to indicate more people like him now than 4 years ago.

I'd call that growing rather than shrinking.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 12:07 AM   #93
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,357
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Fortunately, Trump's base is shrinking, not growing.
Hmmm...I wish that were true.

2016 2020
62,984,828 72,349,962 (and counting...)
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 12:26 AM   #94
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 27,830
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think Trump is convinced that the Military will overthrow him, and his loyalists will prevent that/ give him time to go into exile.

Sounds like something he would worry about.
I was going to point out that his helicopter and airplane are piloted by the military. So, they wouldn’t fly him anywhere.

But then I realized that the Saudis or Russians could have a medium sized jet fueled and ready to take off. His limo driver is not military, so he’s got that option. And all he really has to do is get to the foreign embassy. He can then be loaded into a car with diplomatic plates and driven anywhere. Having the ambassador himself riding shotgun would ensure no interference from any US government or military personnel.

But this is all supposition based on other suppositions.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 12:47 AM   #95
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,502
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
How do you calculate that?

By my reckoning, he got several million more votes than in 2016, which would tend to indicate more people like him now than 4 years ago.

I'd call that growing rather than shrinking.
It was a Reuter's poll: 40% of Republicans and 70+% of everyone in the US thought it was over, he should step down.

The links are from multiple sources.

It doesn't matter how many votes he got. You are drawing an unsupported conclusion that voting for Trump means one is a Trump sycophant. They are not.
__________________
TRUMP IS A LOSER!
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 12:48 AM   #96
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,502
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Hmmm...I wish that were true.

2016 2020
62,984,828 72,349,962 (and counting...)
You're doing the same thing as TA, assuming voters for Trump equate to being in the cult. They're not.
__________________
TRUMP IS A LOSER!
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 01:04 AM   #97
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,343
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was a Reuter's poll: 40% of Republicans and 70+% of everyone in the US thought it was over, he should step down.
And polls have been proven accurate time after time...

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It doesn't matter how many votes he got. You are drawing an unsupported conclusion that voting for Trump means one is a Trump sycophant. They are not.
Ah, gotcha.

When you quote numbers, they mean what you want them to mean.

Sounds legit.

(Sychophants have nothing to do with it - the question is supporters, and voters clearly support him. Do you even know what sychophant means? It seems not, because you brought the term in, and it's simply straw.)
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 01:20 AM   #98
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,590
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're doing the same thing as TA, assuming voters for Trump equate to being in the cult. They're not.
At this point, I'm not sure whether there's a significant difference between Trump voters and cult members.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 01:21 AM   #99
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,590
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was a Reuter's poll: 40% of Republicans and 70+% of everyone in the US thought it was over, he should step down.

The links are from multiple sources.

It doesn't matter how many votes he got. You are drawing an unsupported conclusion that voting for Trump means one is a Trump sycophant. They are not.
Watch that number shrink and approach zero over the coming days and weeks.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 01:41 AM   #100
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,760
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Sure, a key first step would be controlling the military. Of course, there are many other steps he must take and many people have to cooperate with him to do so, none of which is very clear right now. He certainly has some full support, and some carefully worded support from a lot of people. At the same time, does anyone not see a world where Trump starts to demand an arrest warrant for Joe Biden and some of the GOP goes along with it?
Let me be clear, I don't think any coup is being planned or will happen, this will s merely a FYI post.

Many coups have happened without the military being part of it, what often happens is the military is "confined to barracks" whilst the political coup happens, that avoids the issue caused by telling citizens to fire on fellow citizens.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 01:56 AM   #101
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,357
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're doing the same thing as TA, assuming voters for Trump equate to being in the cult. They're not.
Okay, please present your figures.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 05:42 AM   #102
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,927
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which states? Where is the evidence it is more than hypothetical pondering?
https://www.wfmz.com/news/state/penn...e79350866.html
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 06:20 AM   #103
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,644
It has been pointed out that a Coup usually requires the support of the Military.

So this would be more like a Putsch.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 06:28 AM   #104
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24,044
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It has been pointed out that a Coup usually requires the support of the Military.

So this would be more like a Putsch.
I'd say he's more of a Putz.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 06:34 AM   #105
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,153
I am surprised that the stupid, idiotic, lying, POS Trump has not yet claimed that there is not some sort of 'Deep State Conspiracy' which made him lose the election.

After all, since Trump has claimed that he is a very "stable genius", then he is quite unable to admit the simple fact that he ever did anything that is wrong.
__________________
On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 07:02 AM   #106
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,871
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're doing the same thing as TA, assuming voters for Trump equate to being in the cult. They're not.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that every Biden voter is a steadfast, staunch, resolute Trump opponent if Trump takes control of the armed forces.
Did you notice how easy it was for guys like Graham and Cruz to change their attitudes to Trump once it became clear that he was in charge of the Republican Party?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 07:04 AM   #107
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,871
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I am surprised that the stupid, idiotic, lying, POS Trump has not yet claimed that there is not some sort of 'Deep State Conspiracy' which made him lose the election.

That is what he is claiming. The Deep State Conspiracy is a conspiracy of Democrats, Biden, Soros and Antifa.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 07:06 AM   #108
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,871
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Sure, a key first step would be controlling the military. Of course, there are many other steps he must take and many people have to cooperate with him to do so, none of which is very clear right now. He certainly has some full support, and some carefully worded support from a lot of people. At the same time, does anyone not see a world where Trump starts to demand an arrest warrant for Joe Biden and some of the GOP goes along with it?

Does anybody put up much of a protest when people are being escorted out of their offices right now?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 07:43 AM   #109
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,843
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It has been pointed out that a Coup usually requires the support of the Military.

So this would be more like a Putsch.
Not really, having the courts is a popular alternative to military backing, though it seems like he is having trouble finding lawyers willing to push the right narrative hard enough. They seem to be a bit afraid of perjury charges though to make a good go of it.

It seems like they are going through the motions with out a lot of commitment
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 08:43 AM   #110
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,067
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was a Reuter's poll: 40% of Republicans and 70+% of everyone in the US thought it was over, he should step down.

The links are from multiple sources.

It doesn't matter how many votes he got. You are drawing an unsupported conclusion that voting for Trump means one is a Trump sycophant. They are not.
I've been watching a few "conservative" discussion spaces.

Around when media started calling it, the prevailing narrative was that Trump had lost and should step down. Most of their posts were cheap digs at how they thought liberals would burn down cities if it had gone the other way, but they acknowledged the result.

That would explain a ~40% or so figure acknowledging the loss.
But those same spaces started shifting DRASTICALLY once Trump's campaign and lawyers and twitter started pushing the fraud narrative hard. The same group of people who initially thought it was over switched back to "Fight the liberal attempt to steal this election!" within a couple days.

They only conceded at the beginning because they hadn't received their strong marching orders to do otherwise.

I can't say what percentage is on board at this point, but I watched the shift happen in real time. The major conservative hubs onr reddit which were 100% "Guess we lost this one" are now 100% "Fight the democrat fraud!".
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 08:46 AM   #111
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,589
Yeah it's why all the Trumpers here went silent after Trump lost and only a few have started sticking their heads out from under the rocks in the political threads (despite being active in other threads.)

Because they hadn't yet been told what the narrative was gonna be and they can't come up with it on their own.

They were waiting for Trump to tell them why he hadn't lost after he had obviously lost.
__________________
No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 09:19 AM   #112
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,267
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think ww are into Disaster Porn here.
Am I correct in assuming we agree that...?
  • Trump would steal the election if he could get away with it.
  • Trump is indeed trying to steal the election.
  • His many minions are playing along.
That impresses me as a good reason to be concerned.

I take solace knowing they would need to flip three states.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 09:34 AM   #113
carlosy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 349
If we have learned anything during the past 4 years, it should be that if Trump accuses anyone of anything, it's pretty sure that he is the one doing it himself.
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 09:38 AM   #114
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,843
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Am I correct in assuming we agree that...?
  • Trump would steal the election if he could get away with it.
  • Trump is indeed trying to steal the election.
  • His many minions are playing along.
That impresses me as a good reason to be concerned.

I take solace knowing they would need to flip three states.
And the question is how far they will go and who will put a stop to them. It feels more performative than seriously planning on having the election results thrown out, of course that doesn't stop these things from resulting in a real overthrow of the government.

The total farce of the lawyers saying that they have no evidence for the legal claims to judges is at least comforting as many seem to be unwilling to be the first to cross the Rubicon.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:39 AM   #115
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 9,821
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which states? Where is the evidence it is more than hypothetical pondering?

I get it there is a path for Trump to do this. That doesn't take it past hypothetical.
I'm pretty sure that preventing states from certifying is part of the plan. This could conceivably work for him either by getting a Republican legislature to choose electors for him, or preventing certification in enough states to prevent Biden from having an electoral majority, and putting the election into the House of Representatives, where, because the Constitution requires voting by state, Trump would likely win. In order to do this though, he is going to have to get lawsuits in multiple states that are not dismissed on first hearing. I think his chances of actually accomplishing it are pretty slim. I'm not sure what he will do once states have certified and the electoral college has voted. What I'm hoping for is that either he ends up getting dragged out of the White House in handcuffs on Jan. 20. I could see staff, cabinet, etc. humoring him right up until that moment, then all saying, "sorry, you're not the president any more."
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:41 AM   #116
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 19,606
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Fearmongers such as the Jones Day lawyer on Team Trump whom Axios has on background:
https://www.axios.com/trump-electora...a62fe5149.html
Key quote from that article:

Quote:
To date, Biden's status as president-elect is rooted in media projections based on raw vote totals reported by individual states.
Those totals don't become official, though, until states certify them. The Constitution prescribes that those official results will be used to apportion electors who officially pick the president.


According to Ballotpedia:

Quote:
As of November 12, 2020:

Election result certification dates had passed in seven states
Election result certification dates had not passed in 43 states
If you scroll down to the table of deadlines, one can see the deadline for Certification Dates are anything between now and 3 Dec 2020.


So, on or after - whichever is sooner - if there is to be a coup d'état, we can expect Trump to tweet the following:


'I WIN! THIS IS A COO! BIG PRESS CONFERENCE 11:00 FOUR SEASONS HOTEL'


This will be amusing and will generate no end of twitter memes. However, as much as Trump is portrayed as an idiot, there is also a sinister element to this, which I think insiders are taking very seriously, whilst feigning nonchalance.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:44 AM   #117
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 9,821
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Am I correct in assuming we agree that...?
  • Trump would steal the election if he could get away with it.
  • Trump is indeed trying to steal the election.
  • His many minions are playing along.
That impresses me as a good reason to be concerned.

I take solace knowing they would need to flip three states.
That is the difference between this election and 2000. In 2000, one state needed to be flipped, and the margin was less then 600 votes. Gore was right to want a recount. Where I think Gore screwed up was by trying to cherry pick precincts to recount. This undermined his credibility. Had he asked for a recount of the entire state, he would have looked less like he was trying to steal the election and still would very likely have won. In this election, it's at least three states all with margins of 10's to 100's of thousands of votes. It is unlikely in the extreme that Trump can get court rulings to flip or prevent certification in all of them (or any of them, really). I am concerned about what else he has up his sleeve. I don't think we should underestimate Trump. Though I like to refer to him as a moron or an idiot, I think he is actually fairly intelligent, though that intelligence is largely negated by ignorance and narcissism. However, he is not hampered by anything remotely resembling ethics.

Last edited by CORed; 12th November 2020 at 10:53 AM.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:46 AM   #118
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,590
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And the question is how far they will go and who will put a stop to them. It feels more performative than seriously planning on having the election results thrown out, of course that doesn't stop these things from resulting in a real overthrow of the government.

The total farce of the lawyers saying that they have no evidence for the legal claims to judges is at least comforting as many seem to be unwilling to be the first to cross the Rubicon.
.....yet
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:46 AM   #119
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,091
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I've been watching a few "conservative" discussion spaces.

Around when media started calling it, the prevailing narrative was that Trump had lost and should step down. Most of their posts were cheap digs at how they thought liberals would burn down cities if it had gone the other way, but they acknowledged the result.

That would explain a ~40% or so figure acknowledging the loss.
But those same spaces started shifting DRASTICALLY once Trump's campaign and lawyers and twitter started pushing the fraud narrative hard. The same group of people who initially thought it was over switched back to "Fight the liberal attempt to steal this election!" within a couple days.

They only conceded at the beginning because they hadn't received their strong marching orders to do otherwise.

I can't say what percentage is on board at this point, but I watched the shift happen in real time. The major conservative hubs onr reddit which were 100% "Guess we lost this one" are now 100% "Fight the democrat fraud!".
I do wonder about that ecosystem. Observers often say the "leaders" take their cues from the rabble (especially Rush Limbaugh). Or, "Trump's a symptom, not the cause," but there are all kinds of complicated feedback loops.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2020, 10:47 AM   #120
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 19,606
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not suggesting for a minute anyone in this thread made this stuff up. Absolutely the media has been hyping these scenarios in multiple publications. All of them explain in tedious hypothetical detail how it is possible. And here's another one that names no states or anyone actually plotting to carry it out.
I agree we live in an age where too many articles are just breezy nothing burgers, rather than any real research or analysis, but that one isn't too bad, albeit irritatingly familiar in style.

Headlines that are posed as a question (for example, 'Why does it matter?') and/or contain the word 'could' or a disguised similar word, can be safely disregarded in my experience. I almost invariably avoid even clicking on them.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:36 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.