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Old 18th November 2020, 05:22 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If college educated people are reduced to performing unskilled manual labor to pay back their education loans, then why in the ever-loving **** are we loaning them money for education in the first place?
The suggestion was made here that student loan forgiveness be conditioned on performing compulsory labor not of their choosing, such as picking up trash along the freeway.

There's no shortage of college graduates who are getting their hands dirty with low paying jobs, and everyone here knows it. They're just trying to elide that they really want to see the indebted wear a hair shirt in public and are hiding behind attacks of elitism.
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Old 18th November 2020, 05:26 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
False dichotomy. What's wrong with having a workforce that is educated and skilled?
The only thing wrong here is you conflating "nice to have" with "need to have". If we need to have a skilled workforce, and we're spending money for that purpose, then we should make sure that purpose is being fulfilled. Not some other purpose that we don't actually need and didn't actually set out to spend money on.

So. What do we really need? An educated workforce? Or a skilled workforce? Are we spending money on what we really need? Are we getting what we're paying for?

Quote:
They clearly are not.
All education is clearly not equal, and yet our current program of student loans treats it all as equal. The loans aren't contingent on you getting skills in a much-needed industry. You get the same money whether you go into STEM or into Underwater Basket Weaving.

Quote:
yes
Yes, there are specific industries where we have a shortage of skilled workers, but our current system of student loans doesn't take that into account. You get the same money whether you go into one of those industries, or into an industry that's already saturated.

Quote:
Up until now the market has decided.
Wrong. The government student loan program is not market driven. That's the whole problem. You get the same money whether there's a market demand for your degree or not.

Quote:
These are all good questions. But at some point, one must act. Loans are the present solution. If you think we should stop making college loans, it is incumbent on you to say what we should do instead.
I have said, in this thread, in several different ways.
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Old 18th November 2020, 05:28 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Accreditation is not an easy nut to crack, but I agree that loans for unaccredited institutions should not be made.
Accreditation is part of the equation, but shouldn't be the end of it.

I think these institutions receiving government money should not just be required to provide high quality education, but track data on whether or not their graduates are actually achieving any kind of meaningful career success. Continued eligibility for government funds could be conditioned on the college actually being a good investment, back by empirical data, for the students that go there and the government that pays for it. They need more skin in the game when it comes to whether or not their degrees are actually worth the money spent on them.
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Old 18th November 2020, 05:32 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The suggestion was made here that student loan forgiveness be conditioned on performing compulsory labor not of their choosing, such as picking up trash along the freeway.

There's no shortage of college graduates who are getting their hands dirty with low paying jobs, and everyone here knows it. They're just trying to elide that they really want to see the indebted wear a hair shirt in public and are hiding behind attacks of elitism.
If you're referring to me that is a lie. As I have repeatedly said, a gesture towards public service is not a shameful thing.
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Old 18th November 2020, 05:35 PM   #285
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I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages so forgive me if I cover some things that have been already discussed.

I have mixed feelings about this. What about those who have already struggled through years....decades...of paying back their loans and finally finished? Isn't it rather unfair to them to now cancel the remaining loans of others?

I have a niece who wanted to teach high school English. She chose to transfer to Stanford for her last two years. To get a secondary school teaching degree. She went into over $50K in student loan debt to do so. Why? Because she wanted a big name school degree. Did it get her a better job after graduation? No. She ended up teaching in an inner city school in St. Louis for 3 years in order for the government to forgive part of her student loans. She hated every single minute of it. When that was over she still owed most of her student loan and will be paying on it for years. She made a bad decision for a ridiculous reason and I don't see why the rest of her loan should be forgiven.

Do I think there is room for some kind of student loan relief? Yes. Perhaps partial forgiveness, extenuating circumstances such as illness affecting earning capability, unexpected taking on familial custody of siblings, etc. But total, just wipe out all responsibility across the board? I'm not so sure.
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Old 18th November 2020, 05:41 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages so forgive me if I cover some things that have been already discussed.

I have mixed feelings about this. What about those who have already struggled through years....decades...of paying back their loans and finally finished? Isn't it rather unfair to them to now cancel the remaining loans of others?

I have a niece who wanted to teach high school English. She chose to transfer to Stanford for her last two years. To get a secondary school teaching degree. She went into over $50K in student loan debt to do so. Why? Because she wanted a big name school degree. Did it get her a better job after graduation? No. She ended up teaching in an inner city school in St. Louis for 3 years in order for the government to forgive part of her student loans. She hated every single minute of it. When that was over she still owed most of her student loan and will be paying on it for years. She made a bad decision for a ridiculous reason and I don't see why the rest of her loan should be forgiven.

Do I think there is room for some kind of student loan relief? Yes. Perhaps partial forgiveness, extenuating circumstances such as illness affecting earning capability, unexpected taking on familial custody of siblings, etc. But total, just wipe out all responsibility across the board? I'm not so sure.
If you look at the seventh post of the thread, there are some specifics of what is proposed. In short, loans like your niece's would not be forgiven. The current proposal mostly only covers federal loans from state universities. Loans for going to Stanford, a private Uni. would not be forgiven.
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Old 18th November 2020, 05:53 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
If you look at the seventh post of the thread, there are some specifics of what is proposed. In short, loans like your niece's would not be forgiven. The current proposal mostly only covers federal loans from state universities. Loans for going to Stanford, a private Uni. would not be forgiven.
Good.

I spent a $100K inheritance to pay for my daughter's college. I'd be pretty damn pissed if she could have taken out a loan and then had it forgiven!
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Old 18th November 2020, 06:12 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages so forgive me if I cover some things that have been already discussed.

I have mixed feelings about this. What about those who have already struggled through years....decades...of paying back their loans and finally finished? Isn't it rather unfair to them to now cancel the remaining loans of others?

I have a niece who wanted to teach high school English. She chose to transfer to Stanford for her last two years. To get a secondary school teaching degree. She went into over $50K in student loan debt to do so. Why? Because she wanted a big name school degree. Did it get her a better job after graduation? No. She ended up teaching in an inner city school in St. Louis for 3 years in order for the government to forgive part of her student loans. She hated every single minute of it. When that was over she still owed most of her student loan and will be paying on it for years. She made a bad decision for a ridiculous reason and I don't see why the rest of her loan should be forgiven.

Do I think there is room for some kind of student loan relief? Yes. Perhaps partial forgiveness, extenuating circumstances such as illness affecting earning capability, unexpected taking on familial custody of siblings, etc. But total, just wipe out all responsibility across the board? I'm not so sure.
I think I see where you're coming from, and yet there is a possible flip side--should something continue to be a struggle for people just because it's been a struggle in the past? As an analogy, if someone finally puts a disabled ramp in for some stairs, is it unfair to those who had to crawl to the top before?

That isn't a slam dunk--I don't think there's an obviously correct point of view to it.
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Old 18th November 2020, 06:40 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Accreditation is part of the equation, but shouldn't be the end of it.

I think these institutions receiving government money should not just be required to provide high quality education, but track data on whether or not their graduates are actually achieving any kind of meaningful career success. Continued eligibility for government funds could be conditioned on the college actually being a good investment, back by empirical data, for the students that go there and the government that pays for it. They need more skin in the game when it comes to whether or not their degrees are actually worth the money spent on them.
I dispute the notion that a college education should be measured by the career success of the student. There are too many factors, and too much freedom of choice, for colleges to held responsible for the career outcomes of their students.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:10 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I think I see where you're coming from, and yet there is a possible flip side--should something continue to be a struggle for people just because it's been a struggle in the past? As an analogy, if someone finally puts a disabled ramp in for some stairs, is it unfair to those who had to crawl to the top before?

That isn't a slam dunk--I don't think there's an obviously correct point of view to it.
Some things can be fixed, some can't. Perhaps an equitable solution could be found for those who have repaid their loans like reimbursing a partial amount in the form of a tax credit spread out over a number of years depending on the amount of years of payback/size of the loan.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:13 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dispute the notion that a college education should be measured by the career success of the student. There are too many factors, and too much freedom of choice, for colleges to held responsible for the career outcomes of their students.
On the individual level, sure. Trends for larger populations is another story.

If 0% of graduates if Strip Mall Tech's forensic science program end up getting relevant degrees, you can probably conclude that the program is a bad place to send money.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:16 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Good.

I spent a $100K inheritance to pay for my daughter's college. I'd be pretty damn pissed if she could have taken out a loan and then had it forgiven!
My parents didn't contribute a dollar for my education. I needed all the help I could get.

And even though I paid for it all, I don't resent anyone getting help.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:18 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dispute the notion that a college education should be measured by the career success of the student. There are too many factors, and too much freedom of choice, for colleges to held responsible for the career outcomes of their students.
If they cannot demonstrate the value of their degrees, how do colleges justify the prices they charge for them? Most industries are capable of rustling up metrics of some sort of another. "We definitely provide advantages, but they are impossible to quantify" sounds more like religion than business. Perhaps colleges should rebrand as temples, so they can just collect the money as tributes to the faith rather than in exchange for actual service.
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Old 18th November 2020, 08:13 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My parents didn't contribute a dollar for my education. I needed all the help I could get.

And even though I paid for it all, I don't resent anyone getting help.
My sister and I were both very lucky as our parents paid for our college educations. But, then again, that was back in the day when a state uni full time student in CA cost about $200-300,IRC, per semester if you lived at home and commuted and went to a community college the first two years which we did. Very reasonable.

I was lucky enough to have that inheritance to be able to give my daughter the full uni experience, plus she had an academic scholarship which was $21K per semester for four years. A private uni education is ridiculously expensive.

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Old 18th November 2020, 08:31 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
My sister and I were both very lucky as our parents paid for our college educations. But, then again, that was back in the day when a state uni full time student in CA cost about $200-300,IRC, per semester if you lived at home and commuted and went to a community college the first two years which we did. Very reasonable.

I was lucky enough to have that inheritance to be able to give my daughter the full uni experience, plus she had an academic scholarship which was $21K per semester for four years. A private uni education is ridiculously expensive.
I know it is. Just paying my in state public tuition was a struggle for me. Who am I kidding. Paying my rent while I was in college was a struggle. I was always working at least 30 hours a week and going to school at the same time.

Really was the hardest time of my life.
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:48 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know it is. Just paying my in state public tuition was a struggle for me. Who am I kidding. Paying my rent while I was in college was a struggle. I was always working at least 30 hours a week and going to school at the same time.

Really was the hardest time of my life.
But you persevered. Good on you!
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:35 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Accreditation is part of the equation, but shouldn't be the end of it.

I think these institutions receiving government money should not just be required to provide high quality education, but track data on whether or not their graduates are actually achieving any kind of meaningful career success. Continued eligibility for government funds could be conditioned on the college actually being a good investment, back by empirical data, for the students that go there and the government that pays for it. They need more skin in the game when it comes to whether or not their degrees are actually worth the money spent on them.
Guess which colleges would do well under this kind of rubric? Yep, the Harvards and Yales and Browns. But is it because they give great education, or is it because they get the students who are going to succeed to begin with? And I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the schools that would do poorly by your measuring stick? The historically Black colleges and universities. And what's more, if you believe in systemic racism, you would predict this--black college graduates are less likely to get ahead than white college graduates because of racism, ergo, schools that have a lot of black students will tend to do poorly compared to schools that have a lot of white students.
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:39 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If they cannot demonstrate the value of their degrees, how do colleges justify the prices they charge for them? Most industries are capable of rustling up metrics of some sort of another. "We definitely provide advantages, but they are impossible to quantify" sounds more like religion than business. Perhaps colleges should rebrand as temples, so they can just collect the money as tributes to the faith rather than in exchange for actual service.
Are schools/society still pushing the "Getting a degree is the important part, what the degree is in doesn't matter" thing as much as it was when I was a lad?
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:48 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are schools/society still pushing the "Getting a degree is the important part, what the degree is in doesn't matter" thing as much as it was when I was a lad?
I think I'm the same age as you, so I'm not sure. But I think the general unspoken assumption of the middle class is that everyone goes to college if they can acquire the money for doing so.
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:48 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My parents didn't contribute a dollar for my education. I needed all the help I could get.

And even though I paid for it all, I don't resent anyone getting help.
Two of the premises I'm questioning:

Whether these loans are actually helping people in every case.

Whether these loans are the best way to help people in every case.

I also don't resent anyone getting help. I do kinda resent the government spending taxpayer dollars on stuff that isn't actually helping, or isn't the best way to help.

I'd much rather this be a discussion about improving public policy, than a discussion about who's morally superior.
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:51 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think I'm the same age as you, so I'm not sure. But I think the general unspoken assumption of the middle class is that everyone goes to college if they can acquire the money for doing so.
I'm 41, graduated in 1997. And, my impression obviously, back then was this idea that just "getting a degree" was the goal. What your major was was secondary.
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:55 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
On the individual level, sure. Trends for larger populations is another story.

If 0% of graduates if Strip Mall Tech's forensic science program end up getting relevant degrees, you can probably conclude that the program is a bad place to send money.
Sure, but I understood you to be talking about the value of the degree - i.e., whether the student can get a good job with it, pay off their loans, retire comfortably, etc. If you want to measure the value of a school by its graduation rate, that makes sense to me. If you want to measure the value of a school by the career outcomes of its graduates, that doesn't.

(Too, graduation rate doesn't always tell the whole story. The Navy SEAL training program, BUDS, has a dropout rate of about 75%. But the government still considers it a good place to send money, and rightly so.)
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:01 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If they cannot demonstrate the value of their degrees, how do colleges justify the prices they charge for them? Most industries are capable of rustling up metrics of some sort of another. "We definitely provide advantages, but they are impossible to quantify" sounds more like religion than business. Perhaps colleges should rebrand as temples, so they can just collect the money as tributes to the faith rather than in exchange for actual service.
Caveat emptor. If colleges cannot demonstrate the value of their degrees, then why in the all-singing, all-dancing, ever-loving, mother of **** is the federal government carrying ONE POINT SIX TRILLION DOLLARS of outstanding student loan debt?
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:03 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm 41, graduated in 1997. And, my impression obviously, back then was this idea that just "getting a degree" was the goal. What your major was was secondary.
I gotta say I'm pretty impressed. You curmudgeon like a man twice your age.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:05 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I gotta say I'm pretty impressed. You curmudgeon like a man twice your age.
And you edge-lord nihilistic contrarian like one still in Junior High School.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:11 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure, but I understood you to be talking about the value of the degree - i.e., whether the student can get a good job with it, pay off their loans, retire comfortably, etc. If you want to measure the value of a school by its graduation rate, that makes sense to me. If you want to measure the value of a school by the career outcomes of its graduates, that doesn't.

(Too, graduation rate doesn't always tell the whole story. The Navy SEAL training program, BUDS, has a dropout rate of about 75%. But the government still considers it a good place to send money, and rightly so.)
And that holds true for some degree tracks at some Universities and Colleges.

Some colleges/Unis are not elite overall but have specific programs and degree tracks that are. Students in those tracks tend to have high dropout rates - but those who make it through are recognized for having the right degree from the right place for that field of study. The dropout rate can actually be part of the allure, as it signals difficulty.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:11 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Caveat emptor. If colleges cannot demonstrate the value of their degrees, then why in the all-singing, all-dancing, ever-loving, mother of **** is the federal government carrying ONE POINT SIX TRILLION DOLLARS of outstanding student loan debt?
Oh, that's easy: because the citizens demand it. Yes, it's a stupid wish, but the government genie has to obey even the stupid whims of the voting masters. Of course it does so in a way that just happens to cater to moneyed interests, but that's to be expected of both government and moneyed interests. It's a perfect triad of stupidity and greed in which one party needs to reassess what it actually needs, another needs to reassess how to actually meet those needs, and the third party needs to either tone down the rapacity or gtfo of that market.

But I'm a premature curmudgeon myself so nobody listens to me.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:14 AM   #308
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Colleges may offer what ever programs they wish within established legal and ethical norms.

We're talking about what overall society, acting through the government, has any duty or responsibility (or even the vaguer "Is this is a good idea") to pay for.

Nobody is suggesting that courses in Underwater Mesopotamian Basket Weaving Studies be made illegal. Just as to whether or not we as an overall society should be funding them if the society isn't currently in the need of more people who can weave baskets underwater in the Mesopotamian style.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:31 AM   #309
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Ultimately it boils down to the ancient conundrum: how far do we let government act "for their own good" when people are being foolish? We agree it shouldn't stop people from taking courses in Underwater Mesopotamian Basket Weaving. But should it loan money for them to do so?
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:35 AM   #310
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Stop putting the blame for this on the students seeking an education, instead of the financial institutions preying on them. Just as broke students defaulting was a problem that needed a solution beyond the typical rules, so too does runaway cost inflation buoyed by debts that can't be wiped through bankruptcy.

The solution's simple: wipe existing debt, and going forward allow for bankruptcy to default on student loans after 10 years or another reasonable time limit.

Maybe the kids should have known better than to let things get this out of control, but the banks definitely should have. If their parasitic asses fold, they fold. **** 'em. Let a more responsible company pick through their corpse.

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 19th November 2020 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:41 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ultimately it boils down to the ancient conundrum: how far do we let government act "for their own good" when people are being foolish? We agree it shouldn't stop people from taking courses in Underwater Mesopotamian Basket Weaving. But should it loan money for them to do so?
If the atmosphere of 2020 has any correlation, that would depend on their socioeconomic position. The poor should not be denied the opportunity to drown in debt for any educational or artistic endeavor, no matter it's value to their future earnings or society.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:42 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Again, what makes you believe them incapable of finding this information out? How many hours are spent preparing for PSAT/SAT, community service to pad their applications, filling out applications, writing essays, visiting schools.. And during this whole process, you mean to tell me they are too ignorant or incapable of figuring out the cost?
Incapable, no. In a poor position to do so, yes. You list off all the other crap they are dealing with in that 12-18 month time-frame when they are making these decisions and yet you left out band practice, theater rehearsals, football two-a-days, travel for baseball games, studying for AP tests and navigating early sexual encounters while living with their parents.

So, this clearly focused teenager is making a life altering decision with the help of college admissions and financial aid professionals who have vast resources behind them to come up with misleading statistics that make their university sound like a great investment.

My law school proudly displayed their graduates average salary without disclosing that 1) the data was collected from a voluntary survey that is not likely to include responses from people who are still struggling to find a job 18 months after graduation and 2) the data shows a heavily binomial distribution such that less than 20% of the respondents made anything close to that average, with a large cluster around the high starting salary of big firms and an even large cluster around the much lower salary I was giving up to go to law school. My undergrad program didn't produce any such data.

Quote:
This also conflates going to college, which I have yet to see anyone here refute as not actually worthwhile to do for the vast majority except those that don't graduate, with going with the most expensive route. Or in a way they wouldn't feasibly be able to afford. Do you or your family decide on which college to go to without considering the cost at all? If not, why? If you did, what makes you think the vast majority don't as well?
Because I saw the friends of my kids doing exactly that. And I see it in people I interview. And I see it family friends. I don't understand it, but I also don't see why it should be encouraged by taxpayer supported loans.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because scholarships just mean the educational institution doesn't charge the student: nobody else is going to make a profit off of it. That's why loans: somebody wants profit. Capitalism fetishized: we're Ferengi'ing ourselves to the point where nothing is worth doing unless somebody's getting money out of it.
I think expanding federal grants in a measured way to be available to more kids would not be a terrible idea, though. Sure, there is no predatory lending market pushing for this, but surely the large colleges and universities have some pull.

Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Would be a good question for a bank, had they not insulated themselves from any responsibility on whether or not the investment is likely to bear a return on investment.
To be clear, the bank did not insulate themselves, we gave them the insulation specifically so that they would make these loans. The consequences seemed obvious, not unexpected.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Two of the premises I'm questioning:

Whether these loans are actually helping people in every case.

Whether these loans are the best way to help people in every case.

I also don't resent anyone getting help. I do kinda resent the government spending taxpayer dollars on stuff that isn't actually helping, or isn't the best way to help.

I'd much rather this be a discussion about improving public policy, than a discussion about who's morally superior.
As to the highlighted, of course the answer is no, the is the only way to answer a question with that word in it. We all have taken multiple choice tests.

As to the underlined, but moral superiority is so gratifying while public policy is so cold and the benefits are so detached.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I gotta say I'm pretty impressed. You curmudgeon like a man twice your age.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And you edge-lord nihilistic contrarian like one still in Junior High School.
Boys, get a room. I'm blushing over here.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, that's easy: because the citizens demand it. Yes, it's a stupid wish, but the government genie has to obey even the stupid whims of the voting masters. Of course it does so in a way that just happens to cater to moneyed interests, but that's to be expected of both government and moneyed interests. It's a perfect triad of stupidity and greed in which one party needs to reassess what it actually needs, another needs to reassess how to actually meet those needs, and the third party needs to either tone down the rapacity or gtfo of that market.

But I'm a premature curmudgeon myself so nobody listens to me.
A prefer triad of stupidity. Well put.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:43 AM   #313
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Stop putting the blame for this on the students seeking an education, instead of the financial institutions preying on them.
It's not blame; lest not totally, but even at 16-18 the vague concept of "Hey I'll have to pay this back" shouldn't be lost on them, nor the base concept of what a "marketable skill" means.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:44 AM   #314
theprestige
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And you edge-lord nihilistic contrarian like one still in Junior High School.
qed lol
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:46 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
And that holds true for some degree tracks at some Universities and Colleges.

Some colleges/Unis are not elite overall but have specific programs and degree tracks that are. Students in those tracks tend to have high dropout rates - but those who make it through are recognized for having the right degree from the right place for that field of study. The dropout rate can actually be part of the allure, as it signals difficulty.
I admit that as a taxpayer, the dropout rate is definitely part of the allure of BUDS, for me. If we're to spend good money on an elite military unit, I want it to be as elite as we can reasonably make it.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:47 AM   #316
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Stop putting the blame for this on the students seeking an education, instead of the financial institutions preying on them.
As has been pointed out above, this isn't a morals question of who to blame. It's a policy question of how to fix a problem now, and how to reform things so the problem doesn't occur again. Deciding who is the "good" and who is the "bad" isn't really helpful if your goal is process improvement.

Of course if your goal is the weighing of sins and judging of characters, then proceed as you like. In that vein I blame everybody involved for the sin of greed: students for being greedy for degrees they expect to reap rich rewards with, politicians for being greedy for votes (and kickbacks) so they arrange bad programs, and the lenders for being greedy for profit so they loan to people they shouldn't for things they shouldn't. And thus I send everyone to hell, where they must fill out loan applications using a cheap pen and that ineffective yellow and pink paper that's supposed to copy through but never does entirely.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure, but I understood you to be talking about the value of the degree - i.e., whether the student can get a good job with it, pay off their loans, retire comfortably, etc. If you want to measure the value of a school by its graduation rate, that makes sense to me. If you want to measure the value of a school by the career outcomes of its graduates, that doesn't.

(Too, graduation rate doesn't always tell the whole story. The Navy SEAL training program, BUDS, has a dropout rate of about 75%. But the government still considers it a good place to send money, and rightly so.)
Damn me, I mistyped above.

I meant to say that it should matter whether people graduating with these degrees, even if the education was high quality, are actually able to land jobs that are relevant.

If colleges are churning out 10x as many qualified workers in a niche field as there are job positions, clearly something is wrong and colleges are over admitting into these degree programs.

That's part of why there's such a disconnect. The schools only care that they provide quality education. It doesn't really matter to them what market conditions are like for their graduates seeking a job.

We are in a weird in-between spot where these schools have very little top-down management from the government writing the loans, but are also largely insulated from market forces that might exist in a laissez-faire free-for-all. The people charging money for education suffer no consequences from student loan defaults, highly regulated banks are still required to keep making these bad loans, and schools have no reason not to accept money and continue to offer degrees of dubious worth.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:50 AM   #318
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Stop putting the blame for this on the students seeking an education, instead of the financial institutions preying on them. Just as broke students defaulting was a problem that needed a solution beyond the typical rules, so too does runaway cost inflation buoyed by debts that can't be wiped through bankruptcy.

The solution's simple: wipe existing debt, and going forward allow for bankruptcy to default on student loans after 10 years or another reasonable time limit.

Maybe the kids should have known better than to let things get this out of control, but the banks definitely should have. If their parasitic asses fold, they fold. **** 'em. Let a more responsible company pick through their corpse.
We're talking about federal student loans. Those are the loans that Biden ostensibly has the power to forgive via Executive Order. The predatory "financial institution" here is the federal government.

And yes, that is where I'm putting the blame.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:52 AM   #319
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I would like, if it were possible, for student loans to involve some sort of job placement for after the education is completed (if done so successfully). That would offer a greater degree of security for both the student and the lender, as well as provide a more measurable outcome for the educational institution (rather than just flinging its fledgings out of the nest once they get the funny hat).
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:53 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm 41, graduated in 1997. And, my impression obviously, back then was this idea that just "getting a degree" was the goal. What your major was was secondary.
In my experience coming through high school in the late 2000's, this mentality from those in guidance positions (teachers, admins, guidance counselors) was still quite dominant. Especially from those who were on the older side and came through college when this was still largely true. There were some murmurs of dissent from younger staff that saw that things had changed, but the prevalent attitude was that getting into college itself was the goal and everything after that would largely fall into place. I vividly recall doing these weird personality tests as a form of career and degree guidance that did not give any serious consideration to financial viability.

It seems to me that myth of "just get a degree" has largely been debunked in the following years as more and more new college grads struggled, especially in the post-2008 recession.

I majored in a STEM career where even the drudgery work right out of school paid a livable wage. This is largely a matter of luck rather than any wisdom on my part. I naturally gravitated towards these subjects in school because I was better in these fields than others. Lucky for me I wasn't a history or literature nerd and instead liked science.
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