|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
6th March 2019, 04:39 PM | #521 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
How delightful to be coming along to bump the thread and see only two posts ago the perfect segue to the article I was about to post.
"Placebo, not Prozac" Article The author looks like a reasonably qualified bloke, especially against the amateurs posting in the thread, myself most definitely included.
Quote:
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
6th March 2019, 04:57 PM | #522 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
What about the ongoing failure of psychiatry save the world from literally the most dangerous crazy man ever?
|
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
6th March 2019, 08:49 PM | #523 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
Misleading "Placebo, not Prozac" from The Atheist.
The essay is Do antidepressants work? An essay from Jacob Stegenga who is a philosopher of science, not a psychiatrist. Stegenga states that he is approaching the evidence about antidepressants as a philosopher. His own conclusion as a philosopher is "Placebo, not Prozac" (the last 3 words of the essay). A more realistic conclusion is that the evidence about the effectiveness of antidepressants is complex and mixed and thus it has to be "Placebo or Prozac". If an effect can be produced by A or B and there is no evidence favoring A or B then science philosophy states that either A or B produces the cause. That meta-analysis do not favor A or B is a good part of the essay. He cites Comparative efficacy and acceptability of 21 antidepressant drugs for the acute treatment of adults with major depressive disorder: a systematic review and network meta-analysis and dismisses it without any actual analysis. His biased analogy could have been checked by looking at the paper (Did 97% of the subject in the drug group get worse? Did 98% of the subjects in the placebo group have no change?). His essay even implies that his analogy is wrong - placebos do have beneficial effects so the placebo group should have improved. If psychiatrists use antidepressants and patients improve, that is a success of psychiatry regardless of whether it is a effect of the drug or the placebo effect. |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
7th March 2019, 12:53 PM | #524 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
And the battle for truth on the subject rages on. (surprise, surprise)
In the red corner: Battling Jacob Stegenga, fresh off his 26th straight knockout; bringing into the ring: PhD from the University of California San Diego Banting Postdoctoral Fellow at University of Toronto Department of History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Cambridge His research focuses on methodological problems of medical research, conceptual questions in evolutionary biology, and fundamental topics in reasoning and rationality. And in the blue corner: some bloke with a keyboard. |
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
7th March 2019, 12:55 PM | #525 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Begging the question that philosophy is any less of a clown show than psychiatry.
|
7th March 2019, 02:06 PM | #526 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
Fallacy of argument from (almost false) authority from The Atheist. Not a surprise given the rest of the thread.
This is well known stuff. Just because someone is thought to be an authority does not make their opinions correct because they are an authority. This is worse when that person is not a really appropriate authority ! Stegenga has impressive credentials as a philosopher of science. An area of his philosophical research is "methodological problems of medical research" so he is knowledgeable about the methods of medical research. However he is not an expert on antidepressants. Stegenga's essay is not about the actual contents of the scientific papers about medical research into the effectiveness of antidepressants. He is basically saying that problems with any medical research make the results of this research dubious. I happen to agree with that. The placebo effect is hard to separate out from drug effects. Stegenga's conclusion though is a personal opinion, not based on science or philosophy of science. If the medical research trying to distinguish between placebo and drug effects cannot distinguish between placebo and drug effects then it is impossible to choose the placebo effect over the drug effect or vice versa. "Placebo, not Prozac" is not a conclusion that can be reached from the science. "Placebo, not Prozac" is not a conclusion that can be reached from philosophy of science. The valid conclusion is "Placebo and/or Prozac" (I just had "or" before). |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
7th March 2019, 02:11 PM | #527 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
This is psychiatry. This is philosophy of science. They are science, not "clown shows".
|
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
7th March 2019, 04:43 PM | #528 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,788
|
I kind of like the philosophical point of view. He is pointing out the non-falsifiable precept.
I see it in sooo many safety related concerns. Like stop signs at every intersection, even of there never was an accident there. Years down the road will they ever remove the stop sign? Now that the population of marine mammals has rebounded, will we ever hunt at a sustainable yield? Can we ever haze the seals off our children's beaches? We need some more PhDSs. |
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept. |
|
7th March 2019, 05:43 PM | #529 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
Nope, they're very closely related, both subject to enormous confirmation bias through lack of rigour, and two very soft sciences that appeal to people not committed enough to do actual science.
That's what makes this research so valuable - it's been completed by a bloke whose vested interests would probably lie in the other direction. I doubt he has many mates in the Psych-ology/iatry departments. |
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
7th March 2019, 06:27 PM | #530 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
10th March 2019, 01:16 PM | #531 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
Stegenga did not do that in his essay. He lists well-known issues with clinical trials comparing drugs to placebos.
He thinks that scales such as the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression are "deeply flawed" because they are sensitive to some symptoms of depression. But they are supposed to be sensitive to symptoms of depression! What is important is the scales change with changes in the level of depression. He dismisses the "odds ratio" statistic with a biased analogy rather then looking at the actual data to see if it is biased. He comes close to saying that because meta-analysis involve statistics, we should not do meta-analysis! He states "When analyzed properly .." but lists no proper analysis or what he means by "proper". All he has is the fact that the evidence about the effectiveness of antidepressants is mixed but tends to show that antidepressants are more effective than placebo and his opinion that they are flawed. See Comparative efficacy and acceptability of 21 antidepressant drugs for the acute treatment of adults with major depressive disorder: a systematic review and network meta-analysis |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
10th March 2019, 01:37 PM | #532 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
You write that the philosophy of science has "enormous confirmation bias through lack of rigour" and they both "appeal to people not committed enough to do actual science".
But you have cited an essay by a philosopher of science and thus according to your post is subject to "enormous confirmation bias through lack of rigour" and maybe one of these "people not committed enough to do actual science" ! Paranoia about vested interests does not make Stegenga neutral. What gives a possible vested interest is reading the essay - his philosophy book Medical Nihilism. Stegenga is skeptical about the evidence for the effectiveness of all modern medicine. Stegenga writes an essay concluding that antidepressants are not more effective than placebos without any evidence. Casting dubious doubt on clinical trials and meta-analysis destroys the evidence! |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
10th March 2019, 05:14 PM | #533 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
11th March 2019, 03:46 PM | #534 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
A lie by a "quote" of my post
A lie by a "quote" of my post. That post was Stegenga did not do that in his essay. He lists well-known issues with clinical trials comparing drugs to placebos.
There is no defense of anything in that post. It is a statement of basic facts about drug/placebo trials and meta-analysis and a note that Stegenga is expressing some personal opinions. It ends with citing a scientific paper that Stegenga cited. Comparative efficacy and acceptability of 21 antidepressant drugs for the acute treatment of adults with major depressive disorder: a systematic review and network meta-analysis is a recent (2018) meta-analysis. It is a part of the scientific literature that shows that the evidence for the efficacy of antidepressants is mixed. It is that mixed evidence which turns the conclusion of Stegenga's essay into personal opinion. I am not defending the efficacy of antidepressants because that is done by the scientific evidence. I agree with most of Stegenga's essay. The evidence is mixed. The trials have the flaws that Stegenga lists (small sample size, short term, many run by of pharmaceutical companies). What The Atheist irrelevantly repeats is Fallacy of argument from (almost false) authority from The Atheist. Stegenga's credentials do not automatically make him right. What makes Stegenga mostly right is the evidence he presents in his essay. What makes him wrong in a few places and specifically his conclusion is the lack of analysis of cited data in the essay. |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
11th March 2019, 07:28 PM | #535 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
Well, I'll stick with that against the alternative of: "No authority at all".
You just can't accept that a bloke with a lifelong study of analysis knows infinitely more than you and has a much better grasp on what's happening. What a surprise on this forum. Where are your published papers on the subject? Do tell. |
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
13th March 2019, 12:47 PM | #536 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
Insults do not address his use of a logical fallacy
Insults do not address his use of a logical fallacy.
Fallacy of argument from (almost false) authority from The Atheist. I have the authority of Stegenga's essay and the published literature he cites, e.g. Comparative efficacy and acceptability of 21 antidepressant drugs for the acute treatment of adults with major depressive disorder: a systematic review and network meta-analysis is a recent (2018) meta-analysis. A lie that I do not agree with Stegenga's essay when I wrote in my post that I agree with the science that he presented. His conclusion though is flawed. 12 March 2019: I am not defending the efficacy of antidepressants because that is done by the scientific evidence. I agree with most of Stegenga's essay. The evidence is mixed. The trials have the flaws that Stegenga lists. 7 March 2019: If there is no evidence distinguishing between A and B then they cannot be distinguished ! Stegenga believes that the evidence distinguishing between placebos and antidepressants is flawed. Thus their effect cannot be told apart. Therefore his conclusion is not supported by evidence - it is a personal opinion. A delusion that I need to have published papers on the textbook and well known science that Stegenga describes! Stegenga lists well-known issues with clinical trials comparing drugs to placebos and states his personal opinion. |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
15th July 2019, 01:32 PM | #537 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
A fail so big it defies comprehension - 67 years of the bible being found to be utterly worthless, and mostly counter-productive.
Quote:
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
15th July 2019, 03:08 PM | #538 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,838
|
Looking through the DSM-5, you can't help but notice you can diagnose nearly everyone with nearly everything. Where I work, at an addictions outpatient clinic, I was astounded to learn that social workers are diagnosing drug disorders. As a registered nurse, only physicians, and now Physicians assistants and Nurse practitioners are allowed to make an actual diagnosis. Social workers are just lay people in my world. They even call them clinicians, a word I would reserve for a medical professional.
PTSD is a good example. You wouldn't believe what I have from patients about why they were diagnosed as having it. It really does a disservice to people that have really suffered horrendous events. |
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov |
|
15th July 2019, 07:21 PM | #539 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
15th July 2019, 07:47 PM | #540 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
A misreprerasentaion of the study.
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition is a taxonomic and diagnostic tool with plenty of criticism and known limitations. Heterogeneity in psychiatric diagnostic classification did not found that DSM-5 is "utterly worthless". These authors conclude that diagnostic labeling of mental health problems has problems. The categories are heterogeneous (looks like they overlap so that the same symptoms can give different diagnosis). Labeling has downplays trauma and individuals. |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
15th July 2019, 08:00 PM | #541 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
It is not.
Quote:
Looks you buy into that illusion. Your "arguments" are as valid as your English - I have to read your posts twice to understand what you're trying to say: misreprerasentaion did not found Labeling has downplays |
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
15th July 2019, 09:22 PM | #542 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
Quoting an opinion from an author is not the study. This is the study: Heterogeneity in psychiatric diagnostic classification. Your "utterly worthless" is not in the study. That "scientifically meaningless" is not in the study. What the study concludes is
Quote:
ETA: Patients fitting a DSM-5 diagnosis is a main point in the study and the opinions in the news article. There is the possibility of a practitioner stopping with the diagnosis from the symptoms. The more pragmatic approach is to investigate if there is trauma behind the symptoms. Dr. Kate Allsopp is right: diagnostic labels are not explanations. They are scientifically meaningless as explanations. Diagnostic labels are scientifically meaningful as a guide to treatment. It would be mad to give patients with schizophrenia the same treatments as patients with depressive disorders. That would be like treating appendicitis as a heart attack ! |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
16th July 2019, 12:36 PM | #543 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
22nd July 2019, 03:23 PM | #544 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
The lead researcher is an author of the study !
The opinion from the lead researcher who is an author of the study is not that DSM-5 is your "utterly worthless". The study does not state that DSM-5 is your "utterly worthless". https://neurosciencenews.com/meaning...agnosis-14434/
Quote:
What Dr. Kate Allsopp said was that diagnostic labels (as in DSM-5) need to be thought beyond, not discarded as "utterly useless". That would be mad because she is a doctor and knows that diagnosis is a vital part of medicine. |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
23rd July 2019, 11:34 AM | #545 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
Yes, nice of you to note that now.
It's a sweet attempt at misinformation, I'll grant you. Your original point stated:
Quote:
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
25th July 2019, 02:11 AM | #546 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,831
|
|
25th July 2019, 05:54 PM | #547 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,113
|
|
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
|
26th July 2019, 01:10 AM | #548 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
I might have to start a thread on interpreting English - I can only presume English is not your first language, so I'll happily spell it out.
RC said:
Quote:
Had he wanted to make the point without ambiguity, he would have said: Quoting an opinion from an author of the study is not the study. Then, to make matters worse, quoting the lead researcher pretty much is the study, so the attempted point was doubly stupid. But please try again yourself. |
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
27th July 2019, 10:40 PM | #549 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,113
|
|
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
|
28th July 2019, 08:28 AM | #550 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,838
|
I can't believe people could be so down on psychiatry after everything it has cured.
|
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov |
|
28th July 2019, 01:51 PM | #551 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
I did not assume that people were so ignorant that they would did not know that the lead researcher of a study was also an author of the study!
You are still wrong. The opinion from the lead researcher who is an author of the study is not that DSM-5 is your "utterly worthless". The study does not state that DSM-5 is your "utterly worthless". Quoting an opinion from an author (even the lead researcher) is not the contents of the study. What a lead researcher says in an interview need not be in the study. The lead researcher did not say that DSM-5 was "utterly worthless". |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
28th July 2019, 07:55 PM | #552 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
|
A popular misconception, not supported by the DSM-5's actual diagnostic criteria.
What most critics of mental health sciences and the DSM in particular either ignore or forget reading is that except in cases of conditions which are self-evidently disruptive (like psychosis), the DSM requires that symptoms substantially interfere with a person's life - their ability to attend to hygiene and basic needs, work attendance and performance, family and social relationships, normal activities, etc - as it was before the symptoms presented, and that symptoms and their effects have persisted continuously for a certain length of time (usually several months) before they qualify as pathological. Simply being "sad" doesn't get you a depression diagnosis. You need to have been depressed badly enough for the last half a year at least that you've never left your room, lost all your friends, and/or been fired from your job, or nearly so. |
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
|
29th July 2019, 12:51 AM | #553 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
29th July 2019, 04:49 PM | #554 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
That is correct, Wolrab - the obvious benefits of psychiatry makes people who are "down on it" seem ignorant.
Psychiatry has many cures as in treatments that control conditions, e.g. lithium for bipolar disorder
Quote:
|
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
2nd August 2019, 01:10 AM | #555 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
2nd August 2019, 01:17 PM | #556 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
|
The idea that psychiatry is a failure as a discipline because it has thus far only managed to be able to successfully treat certain conditions but not completely cure them, is chronically stupid.
A limb that is gangrenous to the point where amputation is necessary can only be treated and never cured. This isn't a failure of orthopedic medicine or surgery; the specific nature of the disease precludes the possibility of a cure. |
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
|
2nd August 2019, 03:54 PM | #557 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
|
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
2nd August 2019, 07:23 PM | #558 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
|
|
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
|
2nd August 2019, 07:54 PM | #559 |
The Grammar Tyrant
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,997
|
Some of us have a sense of humour.
Nonsense. The science solid. What are your credentials on the subject? Looks to me like another person with a keyboard understands things better than the many eminent scientists quoted. Take a look at the latest links just for starters. |
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
|
2nd August 2019, 09:33 PM | #560 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
|
|
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|