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14th September 2016, 09:19 AM | #361 |
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I have kind of lost track of what peoples positions are. So I am not really sure which I am either.
I well understand the benefits of psycho pharmacology. It is really interesting to feel joy after you forgot what it felt like because your brain really does work better on a low dose of an SSRI. |
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14th September 2016, 09:54 AM | #362 |
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I'm generally a proponent of psychiatric medicine too. My sister is bipolar, but has some other health issues. She took some psychotropic medicines for a while, and they definitely helped her. They ended up causing problems with her migraine medicines though, so once she reached some degree of stability with the drugs, she weaned off of them and started behavioral therapy. It's made a lot of difference. She's learning to identify her triggers, evaluate her reactions, and tell herself that her anger/anxiety is probably due to her disorder, and to hold off for a few minutes to get her head together. It's working surprisingly well for her so far.
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14th September 2016, 12:14 PM | #363 |
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I gather from the 8 pages of this thread that evidence for the ongoing failure of psychiatry is minimal, mostly limited to one-off examples, and similar in nature to the failures of numerous other fields of medicine. I gather further that the successes of psychiatry are similar in nature to the successes of numerous other fields of medicine. All fields of medicine are more successful today that they were 20 years ago, and all fields of medicine will in all likely-hood be more successful 20 years from now than they are today. Improvements in medicine are very much an ongoing process.
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14th September 2016, 12:51 PM | #364 |
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Maybe you ought to look again, this is for prozac only:
https://trialbulletin.com/lib/trials/term=prozac |
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14th September 2016, 02:47 PM | #365 |
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The subject was the "science that underlies psychiatry" and treatments, not the accuracy of diagnosis.
I cannot quite agree with "usually a death sentence" because
IMO a diagnosis by a GP as seems the common case is likely to be inaccurate and even unwarranted. This is less likely when diagnosed by a psychiatrist. Patients in general have to trust in the recommendation of their doctors because they do not have the skills to evaluate the treatments. |
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14th September 2016, 03:04 PM | #366 |
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I think this is a really good point. No PCP would feel qualified to positively diagnose cancer. If they suspect cancer, they will consult an oncologist. It will be the oncologist that makes the final call on whether it is or is not cancer, often after additional tests to rule out false positives. The diagnosis of cancer is better defined that many psychiatric disorders, granted... but it would seem to me that the more defined the diagnosis the less you need a specialist with specialized knowledge and experience. And yet the opposite is the practice with respect to mental disorders. Many PCPs seem to feel qualified to make a diagnosis and prescribe treatment, despite a dearth of knowledge on that topic.
Part of this is undoubtedly due to perception. There's a lot of social stigma attached to mental disorders. There are a lot of people who don't want to see a psychiatrist or psychologist. There's still a perception that a diagnosis of a mental condition means there's "something wrong" with them as a person. I suspect this leads a lot of people to be slightly more likely to work with their PCP for something like depression or anxiety, and less likely to be willing to go see a specialist. |
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14th September 2016, 03:09 PM | #367 |
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No kidding, SashatheMagnificent.
There is the often misused argument from authority. The misuse is when a person is assumed to be right because they have authority. Listing a persons credentials does not automatically make them right for the basic reason that there can exist a person with similar or even more credentials with the opposite opinion. Argument from authority can be correct, e.g. when the authority is backed by the consensus of their community or when they write an obviously correct opinion backed up by credible evidence (typically in scientific literature). This is not the case for Dr Thomas Szasz whose opinions seemed based more on his politics than medical evidence.
Quote:
Still tilting at windmills commented on Szasz's "The myth of mental illness: 50 years later" essay
Quote:
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14th September 2016, 04:33 PM | #368 |
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Sorry for the confusion. I assumed it was clear I meant "death sentence if there is no medical intervention." I see now that it was not clear. I do know quite a few people who are cancer survivors and some are in total remission.
In any case, cancer diagnoses are usually quite definitive whereas psychiatric diagnoses seem to be nebulous and ambiguous. That's not a big surprise; our understanding of the two diseases are on very different planes scientifically. |
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14th September 2016, 04:58 PM | #369 |
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15th September 2016, 03:08 AM | #370 |
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And that depends on the effectiveness of the treatments. If a patient ends up responding poorly to the treatments they feel comfortable prescribing they will send patients to a psychiatrist who knows the medicines in more depth and can more finely tune them to find what works for the patient.
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15th September 2016, 08:37 AM | #371 |
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These are all real issues in doing mental health assessments
-under reporting of symptoms -inaccurate history -deliberate misrepresentation of history -under reporting of life stressors lack of transparency regarding substance abuse It takes good personal skills top get someone comfortable to talk to you about these things, hard to do in a two hour intake assessment things that happened to me me regards intakes: - crisis intervention in ER, family states repeatedly that the client had no prior psychiatric history (husband said this five times), his wife later found to have had three week hospitalization - often one someone is comfortable and you re ask about symptoms they will reveal much much more, so common to deny ever thinking about suicide to admitting they do every day for months - client's family swore they had never had a violent episode, two years later when they threatened a family member it turns out that the client had once tried to strangle someone -substance abuse, wow so many stories Then add on top of this that often it is hard to tell apart presentations until treatment has started, it can be very difficult to tell schizophrenia from florid mania. Often diagnosis changes as the client and doctor develop trust and learn to discuss and treat symptoms. One young man I met, I would have sworn had fairly pronounced mania, however the doctor who has a longer history felt that they were in the onset of schizophrenia, because of gross confusion, negative symptoms and history. Another client I worked with for three years went right down the line between both psychosis and OCD and had childhood sexual trauma as well, very complicated. |
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15th September 2016, 03:23 PM | #372 |
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15th September 2016, 03:27 PM | #373 |
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15th September 2016, 04:05 PM | #374 |
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Was the YouTube video "Dr Thomas Szasz on Psychiatry" included in your post at random !
If you give a citation to support an assertion then you are telling us that you think that the citation is right. A citation to an opinion tells us that you think that opinion stated is right. Citing Dr Thomas Szasz's opinion tells us that you think he is right. |
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16th September 2016, 09:00 AM | #375 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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16th September 2016, 09:01 AM | #376 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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16th September 2016, 11:38 AM | #377 |
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16th September 2016, 12:39 PM | #378 |
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Unless you are an adult with shingles
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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16th September 2016, 12:59 PM | #379 |
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16th September 2016, 01:01 PM | #380 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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16th September 2016, 01:22 PM | #381 |
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My sister questions the medical validity of that, too (paraphrasing): "When we get old, a lot of things happen to us. Grey hair, reading glasses, and shingles. Why is shingles a (airquotes) medical diagnosis, but not the others? Answer: because it's profitable to say so. Wake Uuuuuuuup!"
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16th September 2016, 01:56 PM | #382 |
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Have you ever had shingles? It's caused by residual herpes virus left over from when you had chicken pox as a child and I'm told it's excruciating. How can that not be a real diagnosis?
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16th September 2016, 01:57 PM | #383 |
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"reading glasses" isn't a medical diagnosis, but the degree to which one's eyesight has slipped is. It's a diagnosis given by an optometrist, who then writes a prescription for the appropriate lens strength. Granted, you can go to Walgreens and pick out some off-the-shelf glasses that work for you... but you can also take tylenol for a headache, and robitussin for a common cold. Both headache and common cold are diagnoses.
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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16th September 2016, 02:54 PM | #384 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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17th September 2016, 01:57 AM | #385 |
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17th September 2016, 09:20 AM | #386 |
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17th September 2016, 11:20 AM | #387 |
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17th September 2016, 09:18 PM | #388 |
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17th September 2016, 09:59 PM | #389 |
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18th September 2016, 05:11 AM | #390 |
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They might identify the types of cells in cancer but what causes it to suddenly start growing isn't known. If they did there would be a cure.
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18th September 2016, 05:44 PM | #391 |
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Here are few points where mental "illness" and physical illness are different
1) behind a diagnosis of cancer there is some objective science, blood analysis, X rays behind a diagnosis of paranoia there is not some objective science, just guidelines that can vary according to specialist, culture, .. 2) a cancer is a cancer in la paz, moscow and manila a holy man who sits for 16 hours a day in india can be seen as a holy man there and as a schizo in los angeles 3) a cancer today happens in the same way that happened 100 years ago drapetomania was a mental illness 200 years ago and not today 4) you can use mental illness as an insult you rarely use physical illness as an insult |
18th September 2016, 05:50 PM | #392 |
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18th September 2016, 06:47 PM | #393 |
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I did not say that you agree with everything that Dr Thomas Szasz has ever stated because that is obviously not the case from your original post.
One disputed opinion does not support your assertion of "there are many psychiatrists and intellectuals who are not convinced that "mental illness" is an illness with an organic basis". One disputed opinion is not scientific literature. A reply listing the qualifications of Dr Thomas Szasz rather than stating his arguments or citing his papers is called argument from authority. |
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19th September 2016, 04:45 AM | #394 |
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19th September 2016, 08:17 AM | #395 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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19th September 2016, 08:24 AM | #396 |
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19th September 2016, 10:59 AM | #397 |
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Some of the causes of some cancers are relatively well understood; there's a ton out there that we really have very little information about. We understand some of the causes of paranoia as well, but far from all of them. That tends to happen a lot when the symptom can be the result of a wide variety of causes. |
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19th September 2016, 11:41 AM | #398 |
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20th September 2016, 10:30 AM | #399 |
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20th September 2016, 10:48 PM | #400 |
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