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21st September 2016, 08:42 AM | #401 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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21st September 2016, 12:33 PM | #402 |
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Compare and Contrast:
Causes of Cancer
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From the links... Potential Causes of Cancer: Chemicals Diet and exercise Infection Radiation Heredity Physical agents Hormones Other Potential Causes of Mental Illness: Genetics (heredity) Infections Brain defects or injury Prenatal damage Substance abuse Other factors In both cases, we know many possible causes of the illness, and we can almost never identify a single explicit cause in any specific case. With mental illness, we can actually identify a specific cause in some few cases (injury and infection, for example), where we can't necessarily do the same thing for cancer. Cancer has clearer treatment paths, and the treatment selected usually has little dependency on the suspected cause. With mental illness, there are less clear treatment paths, and the treatment selected does have some dependency on suspected cause. The treatment for someone who has a mental illness due to heredity may be a drug therapy that replaces, removes, or regulates the responsible chemical in their system. The treatment for someone who has a suspected cause of substance abuse may be entirely different. |
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21st September 2016, 06:54 PM | #403 |
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Get informed here
http://www.zmescience.com/science/st...edia-25092014/ |
21st September 2016, 06:56 PM | #404 |
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21st September 2016, 07:01 PM | #405 |
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I am sorry I was not clear
I was not speaking about the environmental factors that can lead to cancer, I was speaking about the biological mechanism that lead to cancer, cell mutations, tissue change and so on All such can be properly identified using objective sicience |
21st September 2016, 07:36 PM | #406 |
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman ξ |
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22nd September 2016, 09:04 AM | #407 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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22nd September 2016, 11:55 AM | #408 |
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Thanks for the clarification. In most cases, I agree that we understand the mechanism of cancer better than we understand the mechanism of mental illness. I don't believe this is true for all mental illness, though. I know that there were blood tests and hormone evaluations that were a part of my sister's diagnosis of bipolar disorder, but my knowledge is pretty thin on that.
I'd add though that there are a whole host of illnesses where we understand the mechanism that makes the illness be an illness, but we really don't understand what kicks that mechanism off - we might understand how it works, but we don't know why it happens. I don't think this is necessarily a black mark against psychiatry. It's just a reflection of it being an overall younger and more complicated discipline. Our understanding of the skeletal & musculature systems are better than our understanding of our hormonal and endocrine systems. We understand all of those better than we understand neural systems. And when it comes to the way those things interact with each other, we're pretty new at it. Mental illness ends up being a combination of physical neural patterns, chemical and hormonal interactions with those neural pathways, and the "software" of the brain thrown in for good measure - how we interpret the raw data through the chemical and hormonal interface to turn it into meaningful information. Here's a bad analogy Let's say you take up baseball... but the only way you know how to throw a ball is just all wrong for the way your body is formed. The way you throw the ball is doing damage to your joints and causing you injury. We can know all sorts of things about how joints and muscles function, and we can identify the injury being done. But unless we can observe you throwing the ball, we can't figure out why the injury is occurring, right? Mental illness is partly like that knowledge. The learned function is an element of the injury... but it's incredibly difficult to identify, because we still don't have a way to actually observe a person thinking . We can't directly observe how their brain is translating information, so it's very difficult to figure out what the cause of the problem is. That isn't necessarily a failure on the part of the person trying to figure it out... it's just that we have a lot to learn yet. Until then, we keep trying things that have worked for some other people in the past. |
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22nd September 2016, 11:56 AM | #409 |
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22nd September 2016, 06:44 PM | #410 |
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23rd September 2016, 08:34 AM | #411 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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23rd September 2016, 12:13 PM | #412 |
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I disagree. Brain = Hardware, Mind = Software. The brain is the physical blob of neurons, blood vessels, cells, chemicals, hormones, etc. that sits inside the skull. The mind is the pattern of how those physical components are applied in any given situation, and is influenced by experience.
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd September 2016, 02:53 PM | #413 |
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I happen to believe that the mind is an un-needed rubric, the brain has it's own software built in.
But that is what you expect an M-zombie to say |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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23rd September 2016, 03:09 PM | #414 |
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23rd September 2016, 03:29 PM | #415 |
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26th September 2016, 10:07 AM | #416 |
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Not at all...
(The last I read up on this, which was many many years ago, back when my hairs was long and all that... and a Regan was president) the architecture of the brain depends on growth during development. The neural responses to other neurons are associative, if a neuron fires after a connected neuron fires then a potentiating association is created, if a neuron does not fire after and connected neuron doesn't fire then an attenuating association is created. As time passes and hundreds of thousands of events occur potentiation or attenuating association become stronger. So a neuron has a base rate of firing based upon its associative pattern with other neurons around it, creating patterns of neural activity, and that is the software of the brain. So the 'software' develops from the asscoaitive learning of the neural networks with other sensory and hormonal inputs. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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26th September 2016, 10:09 AM | #417 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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26th September 2016, 01:36 PM | #418 |
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Sure, but it's experience based, isn't it?
When you load software into a computer, it changes the hardware. Some bits that started out as zeroes get changed to ones, and vice versa. The learned information is influenced by and dependent on the architecture. They are interdependent. I'd still say that the "mind" in colloquial use, is the set of experiences and the impact of those experiences, whereas the "brain" is the physical and chemical architecture upon which those experiences are recorded. |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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26th September 2016, 02:56 PM | #419 |
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I just call it all brain processes, essentially the same thing.
As an M-zombie I don't believe the mind exists. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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26th September 2016, 03:03 PM | #420 |
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I believe the mind exists in the same way I believe emotions exist. Emotions are just chemicals, nothing more. But our experience of them is complex enough, and individual enough, to warrant a separate term for them
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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26th September 2016, 03:23 PM | #421 |
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Higher level descriptors describe an 'emergent property' of lower level objects. "Life" is just chemical reactions. 'A fist' is just fingers and a palm. 'The Pacific' is just water molecules with ions and debris. Is Tuesday a thing? Point to it. No? Well, then let's drop the name from our vocabulary. &c.
We used to have a guy who 'proved' that there was no such thing as a toe, since it's actually just a grouping of atoms. There's a stock skeptical response for this type of sophistry: "I refute it thus!" (stomp) (*) (*) Which I introduce with intentional irony, since the famous implemenation was Samuel Johnson arguing against Bishop Berkeley's claim that there was nothing but 'mind'. |
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27th September 2016, 08:26 AM | #422 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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27th September 2016, 12:58 PM | #423 |
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20th June 2018, 02:33 AM | #424 |
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I think this one deserves to go here - a lecturer in psychiatry at Columbia University claiming that demonic possession is real: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ectid=12074449
Why yes, he is a Catholic, but he's more skeptical than skeptics, so it must be true. Hard to find a bigger fail. |
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20th June 2018, 02:49 AM | #425 |
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When a woman mysteriously acquires extensive bruising while lying in bed with her husband, I'd be more inclined to suspect she's suffering domestic abuse than that she's being assailed by demons.
And it seems that demons attack you if you're into the occult, but sometimes they attack you because you're not into the occult. It's a shame there's no all-powerful agent for good to protect people in this sort of scenario. Oh, wait... Dave |
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20th June 2018, 02:14 PM | #426 |
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I would say not really for this thread because this is the failure of a psychiatrist rather than psychiatry. A psychiatrist allows his personal, perhaps religious, beliefs overwhelm his common sense and knowledge of medicine, people, and even psychiatry.
For his first case, a story of bruises suddenly appearing on a housewife, has several rational explanations: she is self-harming, abuse that she was hiding with a possession story, an obscure medical condition missed by their tests. He seems ignorant of or in denial of the psychiatric disorder Factitious disorder imposed on self (Munchausen syndrome). This case could be a variation on this with a need for attention from theological personnel rather then medical personnel. |
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20th June 2018, 04:05 PM | #427 |
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I've been waiting for you to come and try to not blame psychiatry for it.
The bloke is a lecturer in psychiatry at one of the world's top psychiatric educations facilities. He is as mainstream as it gets. If you're so determined that psychiatry as an industry (I can't call it a branch of medicine any more than I could chiropractic, sorry) then I will await his being struck off as a psychiatrist and the university terminating his contract. Once that happens, your defence of the industry might make sense. Considering he's been publicly pushing this barrow for at least two years, I think you're going to miss that opportunity. It is 100% down to the psychiatric industry to remove him and they have not. |
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20th June 2018, 05:21 PM | #428 |
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Are you are asserting that demonic possession is mainstream psychiatry ?
Are you seriously recommending that the religious beliefs of psychiatrists be used as criteria for them being psychiatrists? ETA: For example, is belief in the miracles and demonic possession in the Bible enough to evict Christian psychiatrists from the profession? Do they have to never state their beliefs to the medias, even for non-psychiatry articles? This is the religious beliefs of a single psychiatrist, not mainstream psychiatry. The length of time that he has persisted with not psychiatry does not matter. |
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20th June 2018, 05:48 PM | #429 |
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I blame psychiatry for the failures of psychiatry not the religious beliefs of a single psychiatrist (Richard Gallagher) in an news article about his religious beliefs.
Personally I think that psychiatry is full of both failures and successes. If we go just by numbers of people helped versus harmed then I suspect there are lot more successes than failures. You started a thread about the state of all of psychiatry a couple of years ago. But all we have seen since then are some cases of health system abuse (aided by some psychiatrists), alleged "lack of progress", mistakes, etc. With some irrelevant articles such as this personal belief in demonic possession one. An example of a mistake. 10 June 2016 The Atheist: Can you understand that this paper does not state that exercise is better than drugs? (a psychiatry paper compares treating depression with drugs with treating depression with drugs and exercise and successfully finds a benefit). 12 July 2016: Richard Gallagher states that the majority of psychiatrists would not agree with his beliefs ETA: Also from this thread in 2016, the problems with Richard Gallagher's claims: A Psychiatrist Falls for Exorcism 26 August 2016: A news article mostly about one private institution is not about the entire psychiatric industry. 26 August 2016: A news article describing prescribing practices of many family practitioners and pediatricians [and psychiatrists] is not about the entire psychiatric industry. |
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20th June 2018, 11:50 PM | #430 |
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The industry is made up of many small bits.
If it's meatier reasons why psychiatry is a joke, then let's play now it's winter and I have a bit of time to delve into it. The earlier trouble was your refusal to stop repeating yourself, so if you can avoid that a meaningful discussion might be possible. I'll start off with: 16% of Americans taking prescription psychiatric drugs. An increase of 65% in 15 years! Is mental illness contagious? Where shall we point the finger for that absurdity? NZ Suicide Rate. Being a Kiwi, that should require no links to know that the rate is horrendous, and much higher than equivalent countries. Why are psychiatrists and psychologists not leading the way? Our best resource against teen suicide appears to be the horrendous hypocrite, Mike King, for god's sake. That's just my ante for two. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples of the industry that would be damning in any other field. If psychiatrists were engineers we'd still be trying to invent the wheel. |
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21st June 2018, 02:55 AM | #431 |
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A bit further food for thought.
Scientific American: The Treatment of Mental Illness Fails to Progress Saybrook University: Psychiatry and clinical psychology have failed Guardian: I am sick of seeing friends who are seriously mentally distressed neglected and damaged by mainstream psychiatry And NZ's own Stuff: Antidepressants don't work and mental health system is failing, experts say And I'll round off a very easy five with New Scientist: Psychiatry is failing those with personality disorders I think those five are a little more authoritative than some bloke on a forum. |
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21st June 2018, 02:07 PM | #432 |
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An article about the success of psychiatry
So what - the "industry" is not a religious or atheist organization that excludes members with or without certain religious beliefs. That is your latest mistake.
You made another mistake to add to your list. U.S. Antidepressant Use Jumps 65 Percent in 15 Years
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The medical evidence is that depression can be treated with drugs and over those 15 year new and better drugs have been made. That is a reason given for the increase in usage. 22 June 2018 The Atheist: An article about a perceived success of prescription psychiatric drugs treating depression is about the success of psychiatry. This is a survey so it is probably a perceived success of psychiatry leading to an increase in usage. Whether is it an actual success depends in scientific studies. |
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21st June 2018, 02:19 PM | #433 |
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NZ having a suicide rate is not evidence of an ongoing failure of psychiatry
22 June 2018 The Atheist: NZ having a suicide rate is not evidence of an ongoing failure of psychiatry.
The causes of suicide are complex. Not every person in NZ is under psychiatric care ! More seriously: Not every person with suicidal tendencies in the world is under psychiatric care. What you have to at least show is that the % of people committing suicide while under psychiatric care has increased over time. |
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21st June 2018, 03:14 PM | #434 |
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Five mostly irrelevant links (book excerpt about DSM...)
You need to think more about what you link to.
22 June 2018 The Atheist: Five mostly irrelevant links (book excerpt about DSM, a blog article, a news article on alternative psychiatry programs, an unsupported comment, editorial that DSM needs more frequent updates) Scientific American: A book review. The excerpt is about the editions of the DSM. From 2011: Psychiatry and clinical psychology have failed. Here’s how we do better. A blog article about removal of disorders from DSM, costs of programs, etc. The author is Liz Schreiber and this seems to be her as "New York State Marriage and Family Therapist and Mental Health Counseling" at Saybrook. A piece in the Guardian about alternative and seemingly successful psychiatry programs. The news article title is: Mainstream psychiatry is failing – but there is another way News article: Antidepressants don't work and mental health system is failing, experts say. The title is misleading because they only quote 1 expert, Peter Gotzsche, making comments at a conference. However Peter C. Gøtzsche is not an expert on psychiatry. He has written at least 1 article in the Guardian (no published scientific papers) with no evidence that antidepressants do not work. A 2012 editorial about the DMS concluding that it needs clearer and more frequent updates. New Scientist: Psychiatry is failing [to clearly diagnose] those with personality disorders
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21st June 2018, 07:14 PM | #435 |
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Most words I've seen to say nothing in a long time.
Not to mention the old, old problem of your unreadable posts due to the constantly-changing bolding. I'll just keep posting evidence and you keep whining, ok? |
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21st June 2018, 08:40 PM | #436 |
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NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
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22nd June 2018, 12:38 AM | #438 |
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It's only irrelevant to you because your goalposts shift a lot.
Just one instance: You completely fail to accept that mainstream psychology is psychology, then try to claim a win because alternative methods are working. Heads I win, tails you lose... |
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22nd June 2018, 12:51 AM | #439 |
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British Psychological Society says:
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Nature
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Live Science
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But for the spectacularly obtuse:
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There are none so blind as those who will not see. |
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24th June 2018, 02:32 PM | #440 |
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An incorrect "mainstream psychology is psychology" statement
25 Jun 2018 The Atheist: An incorrect "mainstream psychology is psychology" statement.
Psychiatry and psychology ("Not to be confused with Phycology, Physiology, or Psychiatry") are not the same. Mainstream psychiatry includes a lot of psychology but discards some. Psychology does not include treatment by drugs. Mainstream psychiatry is failing – but there is another way The "other way" is 2 anecdotes with no verified "win". They are also partially psychiatry, i.e. the psychotherapy part of psychiatric treatment, along with "very little medication". Open Dialogue is a widely spread initial primary care through psychotherapy (basically group therapy) approach. Its main promise is in acute psychosis treatment. Open Dialogue for psychosis or severe mental illness (review proposed n 2016). The points he missed are this is not science or unbiased journalism.
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