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24th June 2018, 02:34 PM | #441 |
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More confusion between psychiatry and psychology
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24th June 2018, 03:08 PM | #442 |
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I'm sticking with the nomenclature thanks to American usage that calls a psychologist a psychiatrist, and who prescribe drugs.
But hey, it gives you a chance to move the goalposts yet again, so you should be happy. If you'd been paying attention - or were honest - you'd accept that opinion is probably more valuable than what passes as science for psychology, or maybe you missed my link that showed over half of what had been published was utter bollocks. But it's ok, I have no problem repeating it:
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24th June 2018, 05:49 PM | #443 |
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24th June 2018, 06:59 PM | #444 |
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I am sticking with the definitions of these professions.
Psychologist
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24th June 2018, 07:12 PM | #445 |
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An irrelevant quote not supporting a biased opinion newspaper article with anecdotes
25 June 2018 The Atheist: An irrelevant quote not supporting a biased opinion newspaper article with anecdotes.
This is a opinion article, not a science article. This is a report on an anti-psychiatry group that the author helped to found. 25 June 2018 The Atheist: Still does not understand the difference between psychology and psychiatry.
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That confirms my bias from a physics background about psychology being too soft science. Psychiatry is a bit soft science, e.g. there are difficulties in classifying and diagnosing disorders. |
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24th June 2018, 07:39 PM | #446 |
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An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about a research reproducibility result
I did not miss the link. I ignoreded it because it was irrelvant. As I sad in my last post this was psychology.
But since you insist: 25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed. The paper found that replication gave less significant results and about half the reported effects. Nature
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An ignorant comparison between possibly bad psychology studies and the alleged fraud and ethics violations committed by Andrew Wakefield that lead to him being struck off. As far as I can find (I may be wrong), there was no attempt to replicate the experiment, even by Wakefield. What debunked his opinion about a link between the MMR vaccine and autism was statistical analysis showing there was no link. |
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24th June 2018, 09:51 PM | #447 |
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Most Americans I've ever discussed it with use it that way, but this has from the start been about psychology.
Your grammar is at the same level as your argument. That is gold - they didn't fail, they just failed by about 50%. Legendary! Funny how it's utter bollocks only in your own mind. You do realise 50% is half, don't you? |
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24th June 2018, 10:25 PM | #448 |
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Couple more opinions:
http://www.cchrflorida.org/psychiatry-admits-failure/
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That's right - the scientific opinions are only 50% correct. At least that means actual science can be safely dismissed: Meta-analysis of the placebo response in antidepressant trials
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Nah, it's all good. |
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25th June 2018, 03:58 AM | #449 |
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That link in the last post looks like a Scientology front organization.
But we should have a rule in these debates eliminating the Scientologists as a source -- or, any crackpot source could be allowed. They are not your friends. |
25th June 2018, 12:26 PM | #450 |
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25th June 2018, 02:05 PM | #451 |
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ok, yes, the link was to an editorial in the NYT by Friedman:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/o...isis.html?_r=1 |
25th June 2018, 02:07 PM | #452 |
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25th June 2018, 03:02 PM | #453 |
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Big deal. Go and look up the NYT story.
If that's the best it gets, you may as well give up. Given the thousands of pieces showing the mental health industry to be a bad joke on humankind, the odd one by a bunch of loonies is no problem. Even Uri Geller & Sylvia Browne were right occasionally. Stopped clocks. |
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25th June 2018, 04:05 PM | #454 |
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Argument by insult rather than rational supported debate.
26 June 2018 The Atheist: Argument by insult rather than rational, supported debate.
And it was spelling not grammar: "I did not miss the link. I ignoreded (sic) it because it was irrelevant (sic)." I ignored an irrelevant link about psychology in a thread about the different subject of psychiatry until you insisted that I show everyone that it was irrelevant. |
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25th June 2018, 04:12 PM | #455 |
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More ignorance about the result of the irrelevant study he cited
26 June 2018 The Atheist: "failed by about 50%" ignorance about the result of the irrelevant psychology study he cited.
The effect reported in the original studies still existed in the replication study. However the replication study gave 50% of the effect. As an author of the replication study stated and I quoted before, this does not tell us that the original study failed. It tells us that either the replication study underestimated the effect or the original study over estimated the effect. 25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed. |
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25th June 2018, 04:53 PM | #456 |
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Cites a Church of Scientology founded web site as as a source of credible science
Citizens Commission on Human Rights of Florida
26 June 2018 The Atheist: Cites a Church of Scientology founded, basically lying web site as a source of credible science! This is probably the Scientology cult attacking psychiatry from their religious basis and cherry picking cases where psychiatry fails patients. That is almost as insane as attacking cancer treatment because cancer patients die ! Otherwise it is the web site itself that is almost that crazy. Read the Wikipedia article for some of the craziness that they have supported. They basically lie about what they link to. Psychiatry’s Identity Crisis is about the research balance between drugs and therapy in psychiatry. Drugs are more effectively targeting the same areas of the brain. Investment in psychotherapy clinical trials research is reducing. Richard A. Friedman wants more psychotherapy research. How Do You Cure Mental Illness? is a psychologist talking about why a physician or psychologist would rarely use the word "cure" during treatment. The reason is simple - currently most disorders are chronic conditions. Drugged as Children, Foster-Care Alumni Speak Out is a Wall street Journal pay to view article. All children are "drugged against their will" because it is their parents or foster patterns or guardians who have medical authority. |
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25th June 2018, 05:24 PM | #457 |
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25th June 2018, 07:18 PM | #458 |
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Seems to me that the impossible is being asked for. How do you cure an issue that stems from the way that the brain is hard wired? How do you change the neural pathways in the brain to make them "normal", and do we even have the right to do so to people?
At best we can current give medications that help to suppress symptoms and undesirable traits that the brain creates, often also suppressing some of the desirable ones too, but in truth you might as well complain that we haven't found a cure for ALS, or Huntington's, or Kennedy's Syndrome, or Alzheimer's, or that we're still attaching prosthetics to people who have lost a limb rather than having a way to regrow them. Some things just aren't curable, you can at best treat the symptoms, and at worse, make them as comfortable as possible while making sure that they aren't going to do harm to themselves or others. |
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25th June 2018, 09:16 PM | #459 |
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Thanks. I addressed it again to make a record of the mistake until you address the mistake. But you have not addressed your citation of a pseudo-science web site basically lying about its sources.
26 June 2018 The Atheist: Cites a Church of Scientology founded, basically lying web site as a source of credible science! An apology for wasting our time by sending us to a crank site? An acknowledgement that you understand the misinformation at that web page? |
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26th June 2018, 01:53 AM | #460 |
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Don't be absurd.
As I've said - the opinion is fine. I don't care whether it's on a Scientology site. They're at least as scientific and believable as the mental health industry. Scientology, homeopathy, psychics, psychologists... doesn't matter which one it is - they're all as kooky as each other. Or maybe you missed the point of the thread. Sure, I'll acknowledge that. Just after you acknowledge that you've been guilty of the exact same crime. |
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26th June 2018, 06:40 AM | #461 |
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26th June 2018, 10:35 AM | #462 |
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26th June 2018, 11:19 AM | #463 |
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26th June 2018, 01:06 PM | #464 |
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Have you been reading?
50% of the science is incorrect, misleadingly recorded, or contains false observations and conclusions. What percentage of Scientology is incorrect? (Genuinely asking here - I wouldn't have a clue, but I bet they're not 100% wrong. That L Ron Hubbard guy actually existed.) Mea culpa there - got interrupted and didn't notice I hadn't finished. Supposed to be: psychology and psychiatry. It's pretty obvious if you've been following the links. The very first post is about psychiatry and prescription drugs. |
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26th June 2018, 04:04 PM | #465 |
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An irrelevant and ignorant grouping of psychologists with Scientology, etc
27 June 2018 The Atheist: An irrelevant and ignorant grouping of psychologists with "Scientology, homeopathy, psychics"
This is a thread about psychiatry which is science with a track record of massive successes with plenty of failures. Psychology is science. Scientology is a religion. Homeopathy is quack medicine. Psychics are frauds (either conning other people or themselves). |
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26th June 2018, 04:05 PM | #466 |
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26th June 2018, 04:19 PM | #467 |
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You need to understand what you cite rather than spreading misinformation.
The irrelevant psychology research reproducibility study did not find any "misleadingly records". The irrelevant psychology research reproducibility study did not find any "false observations". The irrelevant psychology research reproducibility study did not find any "false conclusions". The reason is simple - this was a reproducibility study, not a analysis of the original studies. Over half of psychology studies fail reproducibility test The paper: Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science The irrelevant psychology research reproducibility study tells us that either the replication study underestimated the effect or the original study over estimated the effect. 26 June 2018 The Atheist: "failed by about 50%" ignorance about the result of the irrelevant psychology study he cited. 25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed |
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26th June 2018, 08:24 PM | #468 |
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Jeez, that fail rate of 50% is a problem for you isn't it?
But only on your side of the fence, I see. Instead of chasing your tail, providing nothing but bold type, while I provide dozens of links of people with far greater knowledge than me, but who agree with me, why don't you show all the studies which show the massive improvement in treatment of mental illness over the past 50 years? Compare success rates to obvious things like cancer survival rates, and survival rates for other serious illnesses. Make sure you cover why there has been an exponential increase in mental illness in that period and how that proves psychiatry is winning. Do tell me why we are prescribing three times as many pills per person now than in 1970. Finally, do look at how rates of all diseases have fallen by massive amounts, as life expectancy has extended by a decade, and show me where psychiatry & psychology are matching those improvements in any way. You do that, and I'll admit I was wrong all along. Go on... |
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26th June 2018, 08:46 PM | #469 |
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Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science
I have no problem with what the study actually says. I do not like ignorance or lies about any science. The ignorance I try to fix with education. The lies I tend to record for prosperity so that the author is easily seen to be an untrustworthy source.
26 June 2018 The Atheist: "failed by about 50%" ignorance about the result of the irrelevant psychology study he cited. 25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed 27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science. Your burden of proof is to support your assertions with evidence, e.g. in the OP: "To me, this is an indictment on an industry that has failed to make progress in the past century". My burden is to evaluate that evidence as to relevance and validity. Strict speaking you should be showing that psychiatry has not produced any effective drugs or theories since 1918 ! I would be satisfied with your evidence for a clear and significant failure of psychiatry. Maybe that psychiatry has harmed more patients than it has helped? |
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26th June 2018, 11:08 PM | #470 |
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26th June 2018, 11:18 PM | #471 |
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Funny coincidence - the next thing I clicked was the "New Posts" button, and this thread is close to the top: "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness', say psychiatry experts at Yale conference"
Check out the participants - professors from Yale & Johns Hopkins and other universities; these are top-drawer psychiatrists, and they are making mental illness diagnosis on watching an actor playing a part on TV! And you dare to say Scientology is bunkum?* Trump is playing a role, and those clowns "diagnosing" him as mentally ill may as well diagnose Voldemort as a narcissist. They are the best of the best in psychiatry. Laughable. You can still feel free to post evidence to prove your point. [/insert emoji/acronym as required] *The more I see, it seems Scientology is less stupid than psychiatry - must go read some LRH. |
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27th June 2018, 12:07 PM | #472 |
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And in today's news: https://q13fox.com/2018/06/25/washin...deral-dollars/
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27th June 2018, 02:44 PM | #473 |
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A "bleating" insult lying by removing the text of my post
28 June 2018 The Atheist: A "bleating" insult lying by removing the text of my post about his burden to supply evidence.
27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science. |
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27th June 2018, 03:33 PM | #474 |
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Missing link fixed: Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness', say psychiatry experts at Yale conferenc
A "watching an actor playing a part on TV" misrepresentation - Donald Trump is a primarily a businessman (has been a host on a TV show) and is actually the President of the United States. This is not a failure of psychiatry - it is a lapse of ethics by some psychiatry experts. Diagnosis is not meant to be done remotely. There is what looks like a political action group called Duty to Warn: an "organisation of several dozen mental health professionals who think Mr Trump is mentally unfit to be president". |
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27th June 2018, 03:36 PM | #475 |
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An irrelevant to this thread bit of news. Washington’s largest psychiatric hospital loses certification, federal dollars
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27th June 2018, 10:28 PM | #476 |
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Haha! I could have written your response without you.
Use of no bolding noted when you're being defensive. And he is clearly playing the exact persona he played in The Apprentice. From all accounts, what you (and those psych legends) see, is not the thing inside the orange suit. Right... The old "It's not psychiatry, it's psychiatrists..." defence. Good work. What industry do psychiatrists work in? Has whatever joke they have for an industry association censured them? Why would the largest psychiatric hospital in Washington state be irrelevant in a thread about psychiatry? Nice to see the old "It's not psychiatry, it's a psychiatric hospital..." defence. I sense a pattern here. (It's pretty weak, by the way) |
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28th June 2018, 02:28 PM | #477 |
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Do you really think that psychiatrists are in charge of psychiatric hospital security
Fantasies about my posts.
I do not like Donald Trump. He acts like a bigot. He has a history of misogyny. He is an adulterer. If I lived in the USA I would not vote for him because I am the equivalent of a Democrat (my preferred politics is that of the NZ Labor Party). What I defend is the truth, Hosting a TV show does not makes a businessman with decades of work into an actor. Donald Trump is a businessman with a sideline of hosting a TV show. Donald Trump is (unfortunately) actually the President, not acting the part of the President. The probably unethical behavior of a few psychiatrists doing remote diagnosis of Donald Trump is irrelevant to the "Ongoing Failure of Pyschiatry". The failure of the "psychiatry industry" (your phrase) would be the failure of drugs or other treatment. This is a possible failure of professional ethics. Now you are making a mistake into ignorance. 29 June 2018 The Atheist: Do you really think that psychiatrists are in charge of psychiatric hospital security? If health-care workers are assaulted, is that always the fault of the psychiatrists? If dangerous psychiatric patients escape, is that always the fault of the psychiatrists? Read the start of this thread where you were complaining about the seclusion of potentially dangerous psychiatric patients in order to protect health-care workers and the patients. You were labeling that as an indictment of the "industry". Here is an entire hospital being shut down for not providing adequate worker and public safety. A small part of that lack could be seclusions! Washington’s largest psychiatric hospital loses certification, federal dollars
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28th June 2018, 06:47 PM | #478 |
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That is truly absurd. On that basis, any criticism is irrelevant.
Or, are you suggesting psychiatrists aren't the major part of the psychiatric industry? The mind boggles. Yes, and I'm waiting for you to provide evidence that it doesn't fail miserably. Good of you to descend into what you think is irrelevant while you continue to not post evidence of the efficacy of the industry in treating its victims... sorry, patients. No, in fact, I know they don't. But I do love the way your post has gone from "psychiatrists are irrelevant" to now denying responsibility for the industry because they weren't psychiatrists! Brilliant - having your cake and eating it like Marie Antionette. This stuff is gold! If you check the thread title, it's about the ongoing failure of psychiatry. Not just psychiatrists, but definitely including institutions. As you are well aware. Now go post your evidence - your continued attempts to deflect blame are becoming fairly silly. |
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30th June 2018, 10:36 PM | #479 |
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More properly it changes that state of the hardware, but not the hardware per se.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181836/
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The mind isn't meaningfully separable from the brain; it seems a false dichotomy. Your computer doesn't grow new data busses, gates and processing units, as the input/software load changes, but the brain appears to do something along these lines. . |
1st July 2018, 12:38 AM | #480 |
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On the general topic. I didn't wade through all 12 pages, but it should be pretty obvious why psychology & psychiatry are in such a relatively unadvanced state. Like all medicine - you can't do controlled experiments on humans. There are rare-few animal models for mental illness, and they have very limited applicability. There is no instrumentality that provides detailed information about the functioning of the brain (FDG-PET shows something about the relative activity of gross areas, but ...). Only a few mental maladies are evident on autopsy. So there are no sharp-enough tools in the toolbox to see much or what is going on. Maybe a LITTLE blood chemistry or DNA to tease out a few special problems. Mostly its witch-doctors relying on experience and written tradition.
If you could somehow image all neurophysological changes in great detail, if you could measure neurotransmitter activity throughout the brain dynamically - if you could put patients into a carefully constructed virtual reality - and measure how they react to some standardized environments/tests - then you might have a chance to develop this into a science. |
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