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Old 24th June 2018, 02:34 PM   #441
Reality Check
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Exclamation More confusion between psychiatry and psychology

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
25 June 2018 The Atheist: More confusion between psychiatry and psychology!
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Old 24th June 2018, 03:08 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
25 Jun 2018 The Atheist: An incorrect "mainstream psychology is psychology" statement.
Psychiatry and psychology ("Not to be confused with Phycology, Physiology, or Psychiatry") are not the same. Mainstream psychiatry includes a lot of psychology but discards some. Psychology does not include treatment by drugs.
I'm sticking with the nomenclature thanks to American usage that calls a psychologist a psychiatrist, and who prescribe drugs.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The "other way" is 2 anecdotes with no verified "win". They are also partially psychiatry, i.e. the psychotherapy part of psychiatric treatment, along with "very little medication".
But hey, it gives you a chance to move the goalposts yet again, so you should be happy.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
This is a opinion article, not a science article.
If you'd been paying attention - or were honest - you'd accept that opinion is probably more valuable than what passes as science for psychology, or maybe you missed my link that showed over half of what had been published was utter bollocks.

But it's ok, I have no problem repeating it:

Quote:
Now, a painstaking yearslong effort to reproduce 100 studies published in three leading psychology journals has found that more than half of the findings did not hold up when retested. The analysis was done by research psychologists, many of whom volunteered their time to double-check what they considered important work. Their conclusions, reported Thursday in the journal Science, have confirmed the worst fears of scientists who have long worried that the field needed a strong correction.
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Old 24th June 2018, 05:49 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm sticking with the nomenclature thanks to American usage that calls a psychologist a psychiatrist, and who prescribe drugs.
Which American uses that term? A psychiatrist holds a medical degree. A psychologist does not.
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Old 24th June 2018, 06:59 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm sticking with the nomenclature thanks to American usage that calls a psychologist a psychiatrist, and who prescribe drugs.
I am sticking with the definitions of these professions.
Psychologist
Quote:
Not to be confused with Psychiatrist.
A psychologist studies normal and abnormal mental states from cognitive, emotional, and social processes and behavior by observing, interpreting, and recording how individuals relate to one another and to their environments.[1] To become a psychologist, a person often completes a graduate university degree in psychology, but in most jurisdictions, members of other behavioral professions (such as counselors and psychiatrists) can also evaluate, diagnose, treat, and study mental processes.[2]
Psychiatrist
Quote:
Not to be confused with Psychologist.
A psychiatrist is a physician who specializes in psychiatry, the branch of medicine devoted to the diagnosis, prevention, study, and treatment of mental disorders. Psychiatrists are medical doctors, unlike psychologists, and must evaluate patients to determine whether their symptoms are the result of a physical illness, a combination of physical and mental ailments, or strictly psychiatric.
My emphasis added.
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Old 24th June 2018, 07:12 PM   #445
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Thumbs down An irrelevant quote not supporting a biased opinion newspaper article with anecdotes

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If you'd been paying attention - or were honest - you'd accept that opinion...
25 June 2018 The Atheist: An irrelevant quote not supporting a biased opinion newspaper article with anecdotes.

This is a opinion article, not a science article.
This is a report on an anti-psychiatry group that the author helped to found.

25 June 2018 The Atheist: Still does not understand the difference between psychology and psychiatry.
Quote:
Now, a painstaking yearslong effort to reproduce 100 studies published in three leading psychology journals has found that more than half of the findings did not hold up when retested. The analysis was done by research psychologists, many of whom volunteered their time to double-check what they considered important work. Their conclusions, reported Thursday in the journal Science, have confirmed the worst fears of scientists who have long worried that the field needed a strong correction.
My emphasis added

That confirms my bias from a physics background about psychology being too soft science. Psychiatry is a bit soft science, e.g. there are difficulties in classifying and diagnosing disorders.
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Old 24th June 2018, 07:39 PM   #446
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Thumbs down An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about a research reproducibility result

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
... or maybe you missed my link that showed over half of what had been published was utter bollocks.
I did not miss the link. I ignoreded it because it was irrelvant. As I sad in my last post this was psychology.

But since you insist:
25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed.

The paper found that replication gave less significant results and about half the reported effects.
Nature
Quote:
The 39% figure derives from the team's subjective assessments of success or failure (see graphic, 'Reliability test'). Another method assessed whether a statistically significant effect could be found, and produced an even bleaker result. Whereas 97% of the original studies found a significant effect, only 36% of replication studies found significant results. The team also found that the average size of the effects found in the replicated studies was only half that reported in the original studies.

There is no way of knowing whether any individual paper is true or false from this work, says Nosek. Either the original or the replication work could be flawed, or crucial differences between the two might be unappreciated. Overall, however, the project points to widespread publication of work that does not stand up to scrutiny.

An ignorant comparison between possibly bad psychology studies and the alleged fraud and ethics violations committed by Andrew Wakefield that lead to him being struck off. As far as I can find (I may be wrong), there was no attempt to replicate the experiment, even by Wakefield. What debunked his opinion about a link between the MMR vaccine and autism was statistical analysis showing there was no link.

Last edited by Reality Check; 24th June 2018 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 24th June 2018, 09:51 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Which American uses that term? A psychiatrist holds a medical degree. A psychologist does not.
Most Americans I've ever discussed it with use it that way, but this has from the start been about psychology.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I did not miss the link. I ignoreded it because it was irrelvant.
Your grammar is at the same level as your argument.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed.

The paper found that replication gave less significant results and about half the reported effects.
That is gold - they didn't fail, they just failed by about 50%.

Legendary!

Funny how it's utter bollocks only in your own mind.

You do realise 50% is half, don't you?
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Old 24th June 2018, 10:25 PM   #448
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Couple more opinions:

http://www.cchrflorida.org/psychiatry-admits-failure/

Quote:
Thus psychiatrists and psychologists, mystified by the mind, are yet the designated handlers of mental distress in our society. This is not only ludicrous, but dangerous. Their insistence that all mental problems are brain problems has lead to psychiatric drugging of healthy people from infancy to old age.
If only there were scientific opinions to counter all these other opinions...

That's right - the scientific opinions are only 50% correct.

At least that means actual science can be safely dismissed:

Meta-analysis of the placebo response in antidepressant trials

Quote:
Conclusions:

The placebo effect accounted for 68% of the effect in the drug groups. Whereas clinical trials need to control the placebo effect, clinical practice should attempt to use its full power.
68% placebo, 50% complete fail.

Nah, it's all good.
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Old 25th June 2018, 03:58 AM   #449
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That link in the last post looks like a Scientology front organization.

But we should have a rule in these debates eliminating the Scientologists as a source -- or, any crackpot source could be allowed.

They are not your friends.
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Old 25th June 2018, 12:26 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
That link in the last post looks like a Scientology front organization.

But we should have a rule in these debates eliminating the Scientologists as a source -- or, any crackpot source could be allowed.

They are not your friends.
The article was originally in NYT and reprinted in a Scientology-linked site, so that doesn't bother me in the least. You'd expect Scientology to be all over negative articles, but that doesn't diminish the piece itself.
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Old 25th June 2018, 02:05 PM   #451
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ok, yes, the link was to an editorial in the NYT by Friedman:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/o...isis.html?_r=1
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Old 25th June 2018, 02:07 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The article was originally in NYT and reprinted in a Scientology-linked site, so that doesn't bother me in the least. You'd expect Scientology to be all over negative articles, but that doesn't diminish the piece itself.
The part that you quoted was not from the NYT Op-Ed piece. That was a direct quote of the CCHR - a Scientology front group.
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Old 25th June 2018, 03:02 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The part that you quoted was not from the NYT Op-Ed piece. That was a direct quote of the CCHR - a Scientology front group.
Big deal. Go and look up the NYT story.

If that's the best it gets, you may as well give up. Given the thousands of pieces showing the mental health industry to be a bad joke on humankind, the odd one by a bunch of loonies is no problem.

Even Uri Geller & Sylvia Browne were right occasionally.

Stopped clocks.
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Old 25th June 2018, 04:05 PM   #454
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Argument by insult rather than rational supported debate.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Your grammar is at the same level as your argument.
26 June 2018 The Atheist: Argument by insult rather than rational, supported debate.

And it was spelling not grammar: "I did not miss the link. I ignoreded (sic) it because it was irrelevant (sic)."
I ignored an irrelevant link about psychology in a thread about the different subject of psychiatry until you insisted that I show everyone that it was irrelevant.

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Old 25th June 2018, 04:12 PM   #455
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Thumbs down More ignorance about the result of the irrelevant study he cited

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That is gold - they didn't fail, they just failed by about 50%.
26 June 2018 The Atheist: "failed by about 50%" ignorance about the result of the irrelevant psychology study he cited.
The effect reported in the original studies still existed in the replication study. However the replication study gave 50% of the effect. As an author of the replication study stated and I quoted before, this does not tell us that the original study failed. It tells us that either the replication study underestimated the effect or the original study over estimated the effect.

25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed.

Last edited by Reality Check; 25th June 2018 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 25th June 2018, 04:53 PM   #456
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Thumbs down Cites a Church of Scientology founded web site as as a source of credible science

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Citizens Commission on Human Rights of Florida

26 June 2018 The Atheist: Cites a Church of Scientology founded, basically lying web site as a source of credible science!
This is probably the Scientology cult attacking psychiatry from their religious basis and cherry picking cases where psychiatry fails patients. That is almost as insane as attacking cancer treatment because cancer patients die ! Otherwise it is the web site itself that is almost that crazy. Read the Wikipedia article for some of the craziness that they have supported.

They basically lie about what they link to.
Psychiatry’s Identity Crisis is about the research balance between drugs and therapy in psychiatry.
Drugs are more effectively targeting the same areas of the brain. Investment in psychotherapy clinical trials research is reducing. Richard A. Friedman wants more psychotherapy research.

How Do You Cure Mental Illness? is a psychologist talking about why a physician or psychologist would rarely use the word "cure" during treatment. The reason is simple - currently most disorders are chronic conditions.

Drugged as Children, Foster-Care Alumni Speak Out is a Wall street Journal pay to view article.
All children are "drugged against their will" because it is their parents or foster patterns or guardians who have medical authority.

Last edited by Reality Check; 25th June 2018 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 25th June 2018, 05:24 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
...Cites a Church of Scientology ..
Already covered, so nice of you to bring it up again.

It allows me to repeat:

Stopped clocks are right twice a day as well.
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Old 25th June 2018, 07:18 PM   #458
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Seems to me that the impossible is being asked for. How do you cure an issue that stems from the way that the brain is hard wired? How do you change the neural pathways in the brain to make them "normal", and do we even have the right to do so to people?

At best we can current give medications that help to suppress symptoms and undesirable traits that the brain creates, often also suppressing some of the desirable ones too, but in truth you might as well complain that we haven't found a cure for ALS, or Huntington's, or Kennedy's Syndrome, or Alzheimer's, or that we're still attaching prosthetics to people who have lost a limb rather than having a way to regrow them.

Some things just aren't curable, you can at best treat the symptoms, and at worse, make them as comfortable as possible while making sure that they aren't going to do harm to themselves or others.
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Old 25th June 2018, 09:16 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Already covered, so nice of you to bring it up again.
Thanks. I addressed it again to make a record of the mistake until you address the mistake. But you have not addressed your citation of a pseudo-science web site basically lying about its sources.
26 June 2018 The Atheist: Cites a Church of Scientology founded, basically lying web site as a source of credible science!

An apology for wasting our time by sending us to a crank site?
An acknowledgement that you understand the misinformation at that web page?

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Old 26th June 2018, 01:53 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
An apology for wasting our time by sending us to a crank site?
Don't be absurd.

As I've said - the opinion is fine. I don't care whether it's on a Scientology site. They're at least as scientific and believable as the mental health industry. Scientology, homeopathy, psychics, psychologists... doesn't matter which one it is - they're all as kooky as each other.

Or maybe you missed the point of the thread.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
An acknowledgement that you understand the misinformation at that web page?
Sure, I'll acknowledge that.

Just after you acknowledge that you've been guilty of the exact same crime.
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Old 26th June 2018, 06:40 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post

As I've said - the opinion is fine. I don't care whether it's on a Scientology site. They're at least as scientific and believable as the mental health industry.
This argument right here? This is what makes your entire argument dismissible. The mental health professions are not perfect but they are scientific and they’ve done a lot of good for a lot of people. You want to equate them with Scientology? That’s just laughable.
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Old 26th June 2018, 10:35 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Most Americans I've ever discussed it with use it that way, but this has from the start been about psychology.
Then you will agree that all your comments re drugs/medications can be disregarded as irrelevant. Psychologists do not prescribe.
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Old 26th June 2018, 11:19 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Which American uses that term? A psychiatrist holds a medical degree. A psychologist does not.
And they go for another three years after their medical degree.
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Old 26th June 2018, 01:06 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This argument right here? This is what makes your entire argument dismissible. The mental health professions are not perfect but they are scientific and they’ve done a lot of good for a lot of people. You want to equate them with Scientology? That’s just laughable.
Have you been reading?

50% of the science is incorrect, misleadingly recorded, or contains false observations and conclusions.

What percentage of Scientology is incorrect? (Genuinely asking here - I wouldn't have a clue, but I bet they're not 100% wrong. That L Ron Hubbard guy actually existed.)

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Then you will agree that all your comments re drugs/medications can be disregarded as irrelevant. Psychologists do not prescribe.
Mea culpa there - got interrupted and didn't notice I hadn't finished.

Supposed to be: psychology and psychiatry. It's pretty obvious if you've been following the links. The very first post is about psychiatry and prescription drugs.
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Old 26th June 2018, 04:04 PM   #465
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Thumbs down An irrelevant and ignorant grouping of psychologists with Scientology, etc

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
.... Scientology, homeopathy, psychics, psychologists... doesn't matter which one it is - they're all as kooky as each other.
27 June 2018 The Atheist: An irrelevant and ignorant grouping of psychologists with "Scientology, homeopathy, psychics"
This is a thread about psychiatry which is science with a track record of massive successes with plenty of failures.
Psychology is science.
Scientology is a religion.
Homeopathy is quack medicine.
Psychics are frauds (either conning other people or themselves).
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Old 26th June 2018, 04:05 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sure, I'll acknowledge that.

Just after you acknowledge that you've been guilty of the exact same crime.
As soon as you show that I did not understand the misinformation at a web site. What web site? What misinformation?
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Old 26th June 2018, 04:19 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
50% of the science is incorrect, misleadingly recorded, or contains false observations and conclusions.
You need to understand what you cite rather than spreading misinformation.
The irrelevant psychology research reproducibility study did not find any "misleadingly records".
The irrelevant psychology research reproducibility study did not find any "false observations".
The irrelevant psychology research reproducibility study did not find any "false conclusions".
The reason is simple - this was a reproducibility study, not a analysis of the original studies.

Over half of psychology studies fail reproducibility test
The paper: Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science

The irrelevant psychology research reproducibility study tells us that either the replication study underestimated the effect or the original study over estimated the effect.

26 June 2018 The Atheist: "failed by about 50%" ignorance about the result of the irrelevant psychology study he cited.

25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed
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Old 26th June 2018, 08:24 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Jeez, that fail rate of 50% is a problem for you isn't it?

But only on your side of the fence, I see.

Instead of chasing your tail, providing nothing but bold type, while I provide dozens of links of people with far greater knowledge than me, but who agree with me, why don't you show all the studies which show the massive improvement in treatment of mental illness over the past 50 years?

Compare success rates to obvious things like cancer survival rates, and survival rates for other serious illnesses. Make sure you cover why there has been an exponential increase in mental illness in that period and how that proves psychiatry is winning. Do tell me why we are prescribing three times as many pills per person now than in 1970.

Finally, do look at how rates of all diseases have fallen by massive amounts, as life expectancy has extended by a decade, and show me where psychiatry & psychology are matching those improvements in any way.

You do that, and I'll admit I was wrong all along.

Go on...
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Old 26th June 2018, 08:46 PM   #469
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Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Jeez, that fail rate of 50% is a problem for you isn't it?
I have no problem with what the study actually says. I do not like ignorance or lies about any science. The ignorance I try to fix with education. The lies I tend to record for prosperity so that the author is easily seen to be an untrustworthy source.

26 June 2018 The Atheist: "failed by about 50%" ignorance about the result of the irrelevant psychology study he cited.
25 June 2018 The Atheist: An "utter bollocks" exaggeration about the research reproducibility result which did not find that the original studies failed

27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science.
Your burden of proof is to support your assertions with evidence, e.g. in the OP: "To me, this is an indictment on an industry that has failed to make progress in the past century".

My burden is to evaluate that evidence as to relevance and validity.

Strict speaking you should be showing that psychiatry has not produced any effective drugs or theories since 1918 !
I would be satisfied with your evidence for a clear and significant failure of psychiatry. Maybe that psychiatry has harmed more patients than it has helped?

Last edited by Reality Check; 26th June 2018 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 26th June 2018, 11:08 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
...bleating removed...
Is that an admission you have no evidence?

(Appears to be)
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Old 26th June 2018, 11:18 PM   #471
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Funny coincidence - the next thing I clicked was the "New Posts" button, and this thread is close to the top: "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness', say psychiatry experts at Yale conference"

Check out the participants - professors from Yale & Johns Hopkins and other universities; these are top-drawer psychiatrists, and they are making mental illness diagnosis on watching an actor playing a part on TV!

And you dare to say Scientology is bunkum?*

Trump is playing a role, and those clowns "diagnosing" him as mentally ill may as well diagnose Voldemort as a narcissist. They are the best of the best in psychiatry.

Laughable.

You can still feel free to post evidence to prove your point. [/insert emoji/acronym as required]

*The more I see, it seems Scientology is less stupid than psychiatry - must go read some LRH.
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Old 27th June 2018, 12:07 PM   #472
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And in today's news: https://q13fox.com/2018/06/25/washin...deral-dollars/
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:44 PM   #473
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Thumbs down A "bleating" insult lying by removing the text of my post

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Is that an admission you have no evidence?
28 June 2018 The Atheist: A "bleating" insult lying by removing the text of my post about his burden to supply evidence.

27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science.
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:33 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Funny coincidence - the next thing I clicked was the "New Posts" button, and this thread is close to the top: ...
Missing link fixed: Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness', say psychiatry experts at Yale conferenc

A "watching an actor playing a part on TV" misrepresentation - Donald Trump is a primarily a businessman (has been a host on a TV show) and is actually the President of the United States.

This is not a failure of psychiatry - it is a lapse of ethics by some psychiatry experts. Diagnosis is not meant to be done remotely. There is what looks like a political action group called Duty to Warn: an "organisation of several dozen mental health professionals who think Mr Trump is mentally unfit to be president".
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Old 27th June 2018, 03:36 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
An irrelevant to this thread bit of news. Washington’s largest psychiatric hospital loses certification, federal dollars
Quote:
SEATTLE — Washington state's largest psychiatric hospital has lost its federal certification and $53 million in federal funds after failing to achieve basic health and safety standards.
...
The 800-plus bed facility has been plagued by problems for years that ranged from assaults on health-care workers to escapes by dangerous patients.
That was physical health and physical safety standards.
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Old 27th June 2018, 10:28 PM   #476
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Haha! I could have written your response without you.

Use of no bolding noted when you're being defensive.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
A "watching an actor playing a part on TV" misrepresentation - Donald Trump is a primarily a businessman (has been a host on a TV show) and is actually the President of the United States.
And he is clearly playing the exact persona he played in The Apprentice.

From all accounts, what you (and those psych legends) see, is not the thing inside the orange suit.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
This is not a failure of psychiatry - it is a lapse of ethics by some psychiatry experts.
Right...

The old "It's not psychiatry, it's psychiatrists..." defence.

Good work.

What industry do psychiatrists work in?

Has whatever joke they have for an industry association censured them?

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
An irrelevant to this thread bit of news.

That was physical health and physical safety standards.
Why would the largest psychiatric hospital in Washington state be irrelevant in a thread about psychiatry?

Nice to see the old "It's not psychiatry, it's a psychiatric hospital..." defence.

I sense a pattern here. (It's pretty weak, by the way)
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Old 28th June 2018, 02:28 PM   #477
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Question Do you really think that psychiatrists are in charge of psychiatric hospital security

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Haha! Use of no bolding noted when you're being defensive....
Fantasies about my posts.
I do not like Donald Trump. He acts like a bigot. He has a history of misogyny. He is an adulterer. If I lived in the USA I would not vote for him because I am the equivalent of a Democrat (my preferred politics is that of the NZ Labor Party).

What I defend is the truth,
Hosting a TV show does not makes a businessman with decades of work into an actor. Donald Trump is a businessman with a sideline of hosting a TV show.
Donald Trump is (unfortunately) actually the President, not acting the part of the President.

The probably unethical behavior of a few psychiatrists doing remote diagnosis of Donald Trump is irrelevant to the "Ongoing Failure of Pyschiatry". The failure of the "psychiatry industry" (your phrase) would be the failure of drugs or other treatment. This is a possible failure of professional ethics.

Now you are making a mistake into ignorance.
29 June 2018 The Atheist: Do you really think that psychiatrists are in charge of psychiatric hospital security?
If health-care workers are assaulted, is that always the fault of the psychiatrists?
If dangerous psychiatric patients escape, is that always the fault of the psychiatrists?

Read the start of this thread where you were complaining about the seclusion of potentially dangerous psychiatric patients in order to protect health-care workers and the patients. You were labeling that as an indictment of the "industry".
Here is an entire hospital being shut down for not providing adequate worker and public safety. A small part of that lack could be seclusions!

Washington’s largest psychiatric hospital loses certification, federal dollars
Quote:
SEATTLE — Washington state's largest psychiatric hospital has lost its federal certification and $53 million in federal funds after failing to achieve basic health and safety standards.
...
The 800-plus bed facility has been plagued by problems for years that ranged from assaults on health-care workers to escapes by dangerous patients.
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Old 28th June 2018, 06:47 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The probably unethical behavior of a few psychiatrists doing remote diagnosis of Donald Trump is irrelevant to the "Ongoing Failure of Pyschiatry".
That is truly absurd. On that basis, any criticism is irrelevant.

Or, are you suggesting psychiatrists aren't the major part of the psychiatric industry?

The mind boggles.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The failure of the "psychiatry industry" (your phrase) would be the failure of drugs or other treatment.
Yes, and I'm waiting for you to provide evidence that it doesn't fail miserably.

Good of you to descend into what you think is irrelevant while you continue to not post evidence of the efficacy of the industry in treating its victims... sorry, patients.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Do you really think that psychiatrists are in charge of psychiatric hospital security?
No, in fact, I know they don't.

But I do love the way your post has gone from "psychiatrists are irrelevant" to now denying responsibility for the industry because they weren't psychiatrists!

Brilliant - having your cake and eating it like Marie Antionette.

This stuff is gold!

If you check the thread title, it's about the ongoing failure of psychiatry. Not just psychiatrists, but definitely including institutions.

As you are well aware.

Now go post your evidence - your continued attempts to deflect blame are becoming fairly silly.
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Old 30th June 2018, 10:36 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sure, but it's experience based, isn't it?

When you load software into a computer, it changes the hardware. Some bits that started out as zeroes get changed to ones, and vice versa.
More properly it changes that state of the hardware, but not the hardware per se.

Quote:
The learned information is influenced by and dependent on the architecture
Of course, loading software is not 'learning', and software is merely an input to the processor (see Turing machines).

Quote:
They are interdependent.
In a modern computer - yes you can reset the processor and memory to an initial state. You can segregate the state from the machine perfectly; there is a clear-cut distinction between hardware and software. For a mammalian brain - no - the inputs structurally changes the brain. LTmemories are laid-down, dendritic spines & growth and it seems inconceivable that these structural changes can be reversed. It's like causing a tree to ungrow a limb.

Quote:
I'd still say that the "mind" in colloquial use, is the set of experiences and the impact of those experiences, whereas the "brain" is the physical and chemical architecture upon which those experiences are recorded.
But experiences becomes an inherent part of the physical/chemical brain. For example ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181836/

Quote:
Findings from animal studies have been extended to patients with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) showing smaller hippocampal and anterior cingulate volumes, increased amygdala function, and decreased medial prefrontal/anterior cingulate function.
I'm not convinced that experiences are actually "recorded" beyond short-term memory, in any sense other than as a revision of the physical brain. LT memory is more like a set of impressions & emotions around which we dynamically create a semi-plausible 'story'.

The mind isn't meaningfully separable from the brain; it seems a false dichotomy. Your computer doesn't grow new data busses, gates and processing units, as the input/software load changes, but the brain appears to do something along these lines.

.
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Old 1st July 2018, 12:38 AM   #480
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On the general topic. I didn't wade through all 12 pages, but it should be pretty obvious why psychology & psychiatry are in such a relatively unadvanced state. Like all medicine - you can't do controlled experiments on humans. There are rare-few animal models for mental illness, and they have very limited applicability. There is no instrumentality that provides detailed information about the functioning of the brain (FDG-PET shows something about the relative activity of gross areas, but ...). Only a few mental maladies are evident on autopsy. So there are no sharp-enough tools in the toolbox to see much or what is going on. Maybe a LITTLE blood chemistry or DNA to tease out a few special problems. Mostly its witch-doctors relying on experience and written tradition.

If you could somehow image all neurophysological changes in great detail, if you could measure neurotransmitter activity throughout the brain dynamically - if you could put patients into a carefully constructed virtual reality - and measure how they react to some standardized environments/tests - then you might have a chance to develop this into a science.
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